Marijuana and dopamine levels

[spiders]

gasd

Edited February 6, 2007 by bluemeanie

[Maturin]

restlessness, anxiety and mood instability?

A FOAF seems to suffer these symptoms when he is deprived of his longterm weed usage, not during!

[AndyAmine.]

A FOAF seems to suffer these symptoms when he is deprived of his longterm weed usage, not during!

I think thats because MJ lowers dopamine levels over the long term but gives you a sudden dopamine boost over the short term when you smoke it, so thats one of the reasons why you feel less anxious after a cone/spliff and keep going back for more.

Then again, I am not soo good on these things, so dont quote me on it..,

[Pala]

An electrophysiological study showed that precipitated withdrawal was also associated with reduced ®ring of dopamine neurons in the ventral tegmental area of rat brain (Diana et al., 1998). These data indicate clearly that chronic administration of cannabinoids leads to adaptive changes in the brain, some of which are similar to those seen with other drugs of dependence.

- Cannabis and the brain Leslie Iversen.

I think its kinda like AndyAmine said (re. the short vs. long term).

(Btw, that review is probably useful to anyone interested, plus its free).

[spiders]

So how does one increase their dopamine levels?

[naja naja]

[Torsten]

there ares everal ways to increase any neurotransmitter or it's effect

1) release more into the synapse (eg pot, cocaine, mdma)

2) keep more in the synapse (reuptake inhibitor)

3) stop detruction of transmitter (MAOI)

4) make more precursor available to increase production (eg l-dopa, tyrosine)

5) trigger more release naturally (lifestyle changes such as jogging, gardening)

Most of these methods have flaws and shortcomings. For example, sometimes supplementation makes no difference if there isn't an associated release trigger. Or reuptake inhibitors are useless if there is too little to start off with. Or MAOI's can be problematic if they are not selective enough. Or agonists (1) will cause a greater depletion if there are no reserves.

Thus, I think the best approach is to attack as many of these processes as possible all at the same time. eg, I was workign with a GP many years ago who would prescribe tryptophan (4) and a MAOI-a (3) together. Many docs treating parkinsonism will prescribe l-dopa (4) together with (1) or (2).

personally I think (2) is the worst choice and (1) has too many dangers, so a combination of the other 3 is preferred.

In the case of dopamine it appears tyrosine before a brisk walk or some exercise is a good combo.

[coin]

i think there's surely more info in the archives

more like lack of motivation and anhedonia than anxiety and restlessness..depends on the other neuros

[AndyAmine.]

I tired one of these approaches a while ago by taking some L-Tyrosine supplements, I found that while it did help with my anxiety in the short term (I think) I would get some rebound effects later on and when trying to go to sleep I would get minor audio hallucinations like laughing and words only made worse by smoking more pot.

Needless to say, I have stopped this treatment.

Although I didn't always do some exercise or eat/drink caffeine/chocolate after taking it, Ill give it a shot some time.

Edited August 14, 2006 by AndyAmine.

[spiders]

Thanks guys. I wish i was me that was having this problem - but weed makes my BP go down and i feel like shit. My friend is trying to cut down recently and noticed the above symptoms. We were discussing ways to ease the symptoms. Maybe just some kava or something to take the edge off until normality returns might be an easier way to go.

[Torsten]

500mg of tyrosine with a solid breakfast (to promote slow release) will go a long way to addressing the problem. He may need to redose at lunch, but never later than that or it interferes with sleep cycles. if 500mg is too much (ie if he gets jittery) then try 250,g.

[coin]

pot depletes serotonin also...it's probably a combination of low serotonin & low dopamine that lessens the ability to deal with stress - leading to heightened adrenaline .. a situation that feeds on itself .. so yeah, the kava will help smooth things out until it all gets back to normal

the thing to look out for is that when the neuros start getting back into balance, the mj high will also improve (be enjoyable in the way it used to be) and there might be a tendency to forget about cutting back his intake.

[Torsten]

pot actually depletes both. but from observation I think the dopamine depletion is more problematic, especially in long term heavy users.

[Maturin]

FOAF who uses long-term has to enforce 'breaks' every now and then. He's currently on one now, and has been for a month and a half. Damn, it looked hard for that first week, poor FOAF. He tried Kava, but he had a tendency to His symptoms ('lack of motivation and anhedonia', very apt descriptions from what he tells me) rapidly fell off within a fortnight or so.

But he does wonder if he continues to smoke so much outside of his breaks just what he is doing to his brain.

He needs to be more mentally disciplined in this regard

[spiders]

500mg of tyrosine with a solid breakfast (to promote slow release) will go a long way to addressing the problem. He may need to redose at lunch, but never later than that or it interferes with sleep cycles. if 500mg is too much (ie if he gets jittery) then try 250,g.

Can you get this without a script? Cheers.

[noun]

Can you get this without a script? Cheers.

Yes, it's an amino acid, L-tyrosine. Buy at health store etc.

[coin]

l-tyrosine is available in the Nature's Own brand that most pharmacies have. (yes, without prescription)

I understand about kava nausea Maturin (I get that myself, but have an "iron stomach" and have never actually puked), but that is at recreational doses...for the anxiety, the necessary dosage (of a decent quality Kava) is around 0.5 to 1.5 tsp (max) and nothing more, and it would be very uncommon to experience nausea at that dosage. don't worry about that BM... (Maturin, I understand that any higher dosage is really looking for a substitute sensation..but it won't get you or FOAF anywhere)

i know the discipline is hard don't worry so much about what it is doing to your brain -- that organ is fairly resilient and flexible -- just try to keep in mind how it affects your social life, relationships and your higher aspirations

Edited August 16, 2006 by coin

[Maturin]

I understand about kava nausea Maturin (I get that myself, but have an "iron stomach" and have never actually puked), but that is at recreational doses...for the anxiety, the necessary dosage (of a decent quality Kava) is around 0.5 to 1.5 tsp (max) and nothing more, and it would be very uncommon to experience nausea at that dosage.

Umm, yeah...FOAF was certainly taking a lot more than that dosage! Even if he didn't feel crook, he probably would have begun to use it too much as a substitute, so it's probably for the best.

just try to keep in mind how it affects your social life, relationships and your higher aspirations

He tells me it never has any effects on his social life, work or relationships. His problem is addiction, pure and simple. If he has a supply, he's got to smoke it...doesn't matter time or day. He feels a slave to it, and that sucks. He really should just quit outright.

[coin]

He tells me it never has any effects on his social life, work or relationships. His problem is addiction, pure and simple. If he has a supply, he's got to smoke it...doesn't matter time or day. He feels a slave to it, and that sucks. He really should just quit outright.

How is that a problem then? Just feeling powerless or out of control?

I guess just your relationship with yourself/self-esteem, maybe ..

You really can't be a slave to something inanimate .. so it's something more than that

Does he have to hide it from anyone?

[apothecary]

I was meant to make a post on the cannabis/serotonin stuff chock full of yummy quotes and references but circumstances have conspired against me finishing it off (for now).

Anyway, cannabis use doesn't deplete serotonin or melatonin. It causes the release of both in the brain. Long term use means this interferes with natural production of both amines (same as cokeheads who can't produce dopamine after prolonged use).

Adds an interesting aspect to using sceletium with your pot I guess.

[coin]

However it ends up happening, in my experience, pot does cause low serotonin levels over time.

Even if it's just through the depletion of dopamine, this will lead to reduced ability to deal with stress as well as other types of behaviour, which lead to high adrenaline as well as other stress hormones which will slow down the normal production of serotonin. A lot depends on the individual of course

Just my opinion..but interested in those ref's .. be good to see them in a new thread when you get time to do so

[Maturin]

How is that a problem then? Just feeling powerless or out of control?

I guess just your relationship with yourself/self-esteem, maybe ..

You really can't be a slave to something inanimate .. so it's something more than that

Does he have to hide it from anyone?

He only hides it from people like, say, cops!

It's certainly not a self esteem issue, not at this point in his life where he feels happy and content. He only wishes he could use it less frequently, to get the proper effects from the weed - which he tells me is powerfully beneficial to his brain space. But if it is overused, it loses most of it's magic, and has fewer of it's effects. Or so he tells me.

To clarify, I guess he would say that he is a 'slave to his own lack of self control'.

[Torsten]

Anyway, cannabis use doesn't deplete serotonin or melatonin. It causes the release of both in the brain. Long term use means this interferes with natural production of both amines (same as cokeheads who can't produce dopamine after prolonged use).

Isn't this a contradiction? Any excessive release of any transmitter is by default a depletion.