SPRAYING CANNABIS WITH FORMALDEHYDE, AND lots of drugs not caught by analog law

[Guest Thelema]

check it out

www.pharmcentral.com/cannabinoids.htm

[Torsten]

excellent site. Quite a daring political statement on the cannabis page considering how dry the rest of the site is.

this site is probably the best of its kind on the web. There appear to be a couple of mistakes in relation to MAO and some confusing stuff on serotonin, but other than that I thoroughly recommend it.

It has also picked up a mistake I have been propagating. I had always assumed phenylalanine to be a precursor to adrenaline and dopamine, but tyrosine only a precursor to dopamine. Reason being that taking phenyl seems to produce a lot more adrenaline and causes anxiety attacks in low serotonin individuals. These are very uncommon for tyrosine. I was ready to take this site as gospel, but then found some mistakes elsewhere, so I am going to research this particular issue a little further.

[Torsten]

eeeek, site is going downhill quickly....

TMA occurs in the calamus root

LSD ... typical doses may be as low as a microgram

for f*cks sake, where do these people get this shit from??

[Guest reville]

SPRAYING CANNABIS WITH FORMALDEHYDE

now why would you want to go and do a thing like tat?

'MDMA has been shown to cause permanent damage to serotonin nerve terminals.

yeah in non human primates - not in humans- no tests can be done due to legal scientific and ethical problems.same bullshit touted everywhere

interestingly in rats the nerve fibres

regrow over time

[woof woof woof]

I had always assumed phenylalanine to be a precursor to adrenaline and dopamine, but tyrosine only a precursor to dopamine.

I just read about this a few days ago. And it did confirm that phenylalanine is a precursor of tyrosine ,and tyrosine a precursor for dopamine and other nuerotransmitors.

Phenylalanine >Tyrosine >Dopa >Dopamine> Norepinephrine (or noradrenaline) And / or

Epinephrine (adrenaline).

--------------------------------------------

'MDMA has been shown to cause permanent damage to serotonin nerve terminals.

yeah in non human primates - not in humans- no tests can be done due to legal scientific and ethical problems.same bullshit touted everywhere

interestingly in rats the nerve fibres

regrow over time.

Nerves and nerver terminals are known to grow back. Thank Great Skyfather for that!

[Andrew]

Dont where they got there info from.Too many

mistakes to trust anything on this page.

[woof woof woof]

www.mindfixers.com/pathway1.html

Heh, I like the websites name "Mindfixers"

Where you can get your mind fixed!

[eccles]

Torsten: regarding your musings on neurotransmitter synthesis:

1/ Phenylalanine is converted into tyrosine by phenylalanine hydroxylase.

2/ the hormone adrenaline is made from the neurotransmitter noradrenaline, which is in turn made from dopamine, which is in turn made from tyrosine (through another intermediate).

Your body would have a lot of different safeguards and techniques that it uses to decide what it needs and when... and just simply taking amino acids is a bit of a sledgehammer technique - as you can't know what your body will do with it anyway...

So if your body decided that it needed some dopamine, and it had plenty of tyrosine, then it would make dopamine. ditto if it needed noradrenaline. If it had phenylalanine available it would use that.

What you describe (the subjective difference between taking tyrosine and phenylalanine) makes little sense when you consider the biosynthetic pathway that is used. However if you are saying it happens in 'low serotonin indivuduals' then it is conceivable that there are some problems with the biochemical balance anyway, and meaningful conclusions about biosynthetic pathways in normal individuals are unlikely to be able to be drawn...

Perhaps phenylalanine doesn't get converted to tyrosine by them properly... however, this would not explain your percieved 'increase in adrenaline' (would I be right in thinking that it is just a guess that attributes their anxiety to increased adrenaline?), if adrenaline is synthesised from dopamine.

Of course the brain is such a complex system, that talking about it's pathways and whatnot in terms such as these, and at the level that we are here, are just hideously misleading and virtually useless anyway... I'd really like to have some understanding of it one day, but I doubt I will live long enough

[eccles]

oh! and maybe it is possible that if you already had plenty of dopamine, and you took ANY precursor to it, then it would simply convert it into adrenaline... perhaps.

If this is the case then self diagnosing which neurotransmitter you are lacking in (hahaha it sounds funny doesn't it, but people do!) would be quite a silly thing to do...

"please see your doctor if pain persists"

[eccles]

oh!!!! sorry brian! I didn't see that you had already posted the pathway there... (for some reason Revilles was the last post I saw!) ooops!

[eccles]

ahhhhh that's a bloody good site brian!!

there you go Torsten:

"The conversion to norepinephrine occurs with the assistance of Vitamin C and copper."

Yet another factor that we must take into account... perhaps it is conceivable that excess vitamin C and copper consumption (hehe copper consumption could lead to excess dopamine --> adrenaline conversion...

although I don't really understand how these things work, so I hesitate to give much more than uninformed speculation!

Could you point us to some studies regarding the conversion of these amino acids in serotonin depleted individuals? it sounds interesting, but I'd like to see what kind of protocol they used... as it sounds like a bit of a dodgy connection to me...

[Torsten]

Thanks guys for repeating what the website said re pathways

As you would well know there are serious limits to neurotransmitter level measuring in the brain. However over years of taking all sorts of drugs and supplements (and especially in combination) you can get a pretty good feel for what's what. I can certainly very distinctly tell dopamine, adrenaline and serotonin apart even to the slightest nuances. When I refer to a feeling of adrenaline, then this doesn't have to be anxiety - there are many expressions of adrenaline (both good and bad) and they all depend on the ratio to other transmitters, which way you're going (up or down), and your 'general' state (baseline).

I have also helped over 100 people beat depression, anxiety and psychotic behaviour that GPs, specialists and the vast array of pharmaceuticals could not fix. I have little proof of my understanding of these matters other than lots of grateful people.

And yes, I am certain that phenylalanine has a stronger adrenaline effect than tyrosine. As I said, I will look into the pathway thing a lot further. It may be possible that phenylalanine is alpha hydroxylated before it is 3-hydroxylated, thus partially bypassing dopamine. Don't know if this is possible in relation to enzymes, but who knows.....

I know that when dually depressed (ie low serotonin AND low dopamine) people take phenyl, the often end up in anxiety attacks, paranoid states and even delusional states. This does not happen with relevantly dosed tyrosine.

I also know that at a time before I ever encountered unbalanced states in myself, I would take phenyl as a pure stimulant with little or no euphoria. Tyrosine on the other hand would always have a larger euphoria component. This was well before I got even interested in neurochemistry.

My misconception came from one source long ago and I am trying to remember who or what it was. I think it may have been from early life extension research, so I have a lot of books and papers to wade through to track this down. I never questioned it simply because my own experience seemed to confirm it.

[coin]

i can confirm the pro-adrenaline effects of phenylalanine (DLPA) within the framework of my own serotonin impoverished wetware..i had been using tyrosine previously (with no probs). when using the DLPA i would start getting really agitated & nervy, hyper alert, feeling of being short of breath..yogic texts recommend that this sort of anxiety may be dealt with by matching the level of arousal with (what should be) a corresponding level of physical activity, maintaining this for a short time, and then winding down with conscious breathing.. to control this state i just mentioned, i would have to take a run around the block or else i would start to panic..i would just get the urge to run ..oh..also i had more migraines than usual during this time, at a frequency i hadn't experienced since early childhood..if i used tobacco or alcohol, this seemed to instantly bring it on..i once used both in very small amounts and ended with the most blinding & nauseating pain..

i guess it's a bit more complicated than tracing chemical pathways..and the ones shown above are incomplete..

i assume that we are referring to supplementing with DLPA?

i think only the naturally occuring l-phenylalanine is converted to tyrosine..? and that the dextro form is sent down different pathways because d-phen is known to have enkephalinase inhibitory properties, as utilised by patients with chronic pain...

phenylalanine can also be converted to 2-phenylethylamine, i think this applies to both dextro & levo forms, but moreso from the dextro as the levo is mostly being dragged off for creating tyrosine..i've read that excessive 2-PEA levels will cause mania/racing thoughts..

umm can tyrosine end up as PEA?

5-htp seems to be more effective than tryptophan, and many net sources state that not only because it's further down the path, but that supplementing with 5-htp also increases levels of other neurotransmitters, namely norepinephrine .. how does this work?!

..i don't know how accurate this is, or how this conclusion was attained..it is certainly echoed frequently....perhaps it is this effect that gradually dampens after a few weeks, when patients find 5-htp is no longer as effective, and this is usually easily corrected with tyrosine supplementation ..that's only one way of looking at this tho..maybe the initial attenuation of depression is considered a great relief.. but if there are also underlying problems of low dopamine levels, as serotonin levels are heightened, the patient starts to get the 'blahs' (the malaise that torsten mentioned in another thread) ..without the stimulation of the catecholamines (which may have previously outweighed serotonin) the patient again describes his/her state as being depressed..

hope i haven't made too much of a fool of myself, as i don't know jack about chem.

[This message has been edited by coin (edited 05 August 2002).]

[Torsten]

Spot on coin.... that's exactly what I was looking for!

Originally posted by coin:

when using the DLPA i would start getting really agitated & nervy, hyper alert, feeling of being short of breath.

these are some more of the symptoms associated with adrenaline.

yogic texts recommend that this sort of anxiety may be dealt with by matching the level of arousal with (what should be) a corresponding level of physical activity

Almost. A level somewhat just below it would be better. if you match it or go above it then you may perpetuate it. Gentle continuous aerobic execise is best. When Daniel was at the peak of his anxiety states he used to just drop everything and go for a long walk. Later he realised how much this helped, so he would preempt many anxiety attacks by walking them off. The effects used to be immediate by quickly relieving the terrible nausea and stomach cramps he used to get.

Trying to relax yourself while in an anxiety state can often intensify it as the struggle of control and the lack thereof fuels it.

also i had more migraines than usual during this time, at a frequency i hadn't experienced since early childhood.

Migraines are triggered by sudden drops in serotonin levels. What 'better' way to drop the serotonin than by flooding with the antagonist

i guess it's a bit more complicated than tracing chemical pathways..and the ones shown above are incomplete..

I think it DOES lie in the pathways, however I think the pathways are much more complicated than as presented. The flow chart on that site did mention that they are incomplete.

i assume that we are referring to supplementing with DLPA?

as soon as I read this I knew the answer to my problem Thank you.

i think only the naturally occuring l-phenylalanine is converted to tyrosine..?

yes. and even if not, then the dextro form would cause all sort of hyperstimulatory problems.

phenylalanine can also be converted to 2-phenylethylamine, i think this applies to both dextro & levo forms, but moreso from the dextro as the levo is mostly being dragged off for creating tyrosine.

and the dextro version of this PEA would have a MUCH more stimulating effect than the levo form.

umm can tyrosine end up as PEA?

no, not easily. PEA has no ring substitutions, ditto for phenylalanine. Tyrosine has two hydroxyls on the ring. They don't come off easy.

5-htp seems to be more effective than tryptophan, and many net sources state that not only because it's further down the path, but that supplementing with 5-htp also increases levels of other neurotransmitters, namely norepinephrine .. how does this work?!

I would assuem that this is due to upregulation of the adrenal system to counteract the inhibitory efects of excessive serotonin. This is one of the reasons why I am not yet entirely convinced of the total beneficial effect of 5HTP. I always feel that it is ebtter to use an earlier precursor rather than a direct one. The reasosn are multifold, but start with the fact that an earlier precurssor will also stabilise the levels of the other synth products, thus reducing the demand on dietary precursor. Essentially dietary precursor is in my eyes MUCH more important than the supplement. Example: your serotonin is low. you take 5HTP. your serotonin increases excessively for a short period of the day. Your vit B systems are still screwed and all dietary tryptophan is diverted to vit B production. This amplifies the peak effects of the 5HTP (ie amplifies the lower end of the oscillation). In contrast to this taking tryptophan would increase both the vit B levels and the serotonin levels at sustainable and non-excessive levels. There would be no oscillation as absorption and synth is slow and gradual. Due to the lack of osciallting peaks, the would be no major upregulation of the adrenal system. Upregulation also means antagonism of serotonin and a net effect lower than if uplregulation was avoided.

when patients find 5-htp is no longer as effective, and this is usually easily corrected with tyrosine supplementation

One of the thing I 'preach', which have no foundation in any conventional medicine is that there are two distinct types of depression (and a fluid range of combinations thereof). one is dopamine depression whcih is the more external type (ie "I can't do anythign right", "no one likes me, etc), the other is serotonin depression which is the internal type (ie "why is life soooooo hard", I carry the weight of the world on my shoulders" etc). When you increase serotonin levels, this does not affect the dopamine levels to any great extent (except downwards), so even though life is not a misery anymore, you still don't feel appreciated or motivated. taking tyrosine is the next step. And the depression is only fixed once both are high and balanced and the initial underlying cause has been removed.

as serotonin levels are heightened, the patient starts to get the 'blahs' (the malaise that torsten mentioned in another thread) ..without the stimulation of the catecholamines (which may have previously outweighed serotonin) the patient again describes his/her state as being depressed.

as outlined above, this is a little more complex. It is not just stimulation that is needed, but it is the dopamine. Stimulation via adrenaline is not desirable. Dopamine will give stimulation and a feeling of happiness. It is the ultimate motivator. if you accept that there are two distinct (but combinable) states of depression then any single prong approach to anyone with dual symptoms is bound to fail. I think we will get a lot further with treating depression once this is realised and accepted by conventional medicine.

And now to my next mission. Find some l-phenylalanine and do the comparison with l-tyrosine and dl-phenylalanine.....ahhh, what do you know..... I've got some in the cupboard . Musashi makes l-phenyl. This will be interesting.

[eccles]

I think you meant that Tyrosine has just one hydroxyl group (in the 4 position). You may have been getting it mixed up with dopamine.

just a useless correction, being the pedant that I am

And sorry for 'quoting' that site. I didn't visit it until after I had posted my reply... as I said, I didn't even notice brian's post until after I had already posted that...

[eccles]

oh! and that's a very impressive track record by the way. I wish I know as much about it as you evidently do... perhaps we could discuss it sometime...

Especially your theory on dopamine:serotonin:adrenaline ratios wrt ADHD.

[Torsten]

as confident as I am about depressive and anxiety disorders, my understanding of ADHD is very limited. I try to research these things from the ground up, starting in the early stages. With neurotransmitter balances things often get pretty convoluted later on (eg paradoxical reactions etc) and it is difficult to understand the sources of emotions and states then. The difficulty with ADHD is that it generally starts in childhood and children are not easy to study as they have much more widely fluctuating transmitter levels (which is quite normal for them).

I have however fared extremely well by simplifying all neurotransmitter problems by looking at their quite obvious actions and how excesses, deprivation, drug triggers and supplementation affect both the levels and the behaviour. For ADHD it is helpful to go back to the old terminology of hyperactivity. Nothing wrong with being hyperactive, but why does it have to end in aggression and tantrums? Simple, because stimulation is usually a mixture of adrenaline and dopamine. Now if you induce a state of mostly adrenaline stimulation in any individual while at the same time deprivign them of dopamine, they will very predictably become snappy, then aggressive and eventually violent. As soon as you add dopamine into the equation the person usually reverts to some form of overstimulated euphoria and looses the aggression.

OK, so back to the hyperactive kid. It is bouncing all over the loungeroom, fairly happy but entirely out of control. Mum is getting the shits and starts yelling. For anyone to be told off causes a drop in dopamine (the opposite of "pleasure and reward"). The incredibly high adrenaline level means the child now turns aggressive and eventually violent. And there is nothing we can do at this stage. Possibly the best approach would be a long warm hug (for serotonin surge) and lots of praise (for dopamine surge) - unlikely scenario even with the most patient parent.

Now imagine a child that has (for whatever reason) low dopamine levels constantly. It is always going to be in this state. Any intermediate state will fluctuate between being managable and being out of control. This is all applicable in sliding scales. There are no definite transmitter amounts - it is a fluid system.

When the child grows up it may develop out of this by change in diet or change in circumstances. Spending less time with a parent that is depleting the childs dopamine may already do the trick. Or maybe fallign in love and having elevated serotonin levels which suddenly keeps the adrenaline in check may also do it. But the sad fact is that most kids/adolescents only learn to 'manage' or suppress the externalisation of the problem as they grow up, rather than fixing it. I am convinced that this is where the huge number of depressed adults comes from. I am also sure that this is the basis for the increase in uncontrollable behaviours like 'xxx-rage' and domestic violence.

Anyway, I feel that the best way to deal with ADHD in children is to elevate their serotonin levels which will help to keep the elevated adrenaline under control. Simultaneously I would also tackle increasing the dopamine so that when the adrenaline does take over, it will be steered in a positive and productive way rather than violent and destructive.

I feel that turning those kids into drug zombies is not the way to fix the problem. I think it is an irresponsible short sighted short term solution that will actually make the problem worse in the long run.

I have so far found that all adults I have treated for depression, anxiety, paranoia or learning difficulties who have had ADHD at some stage have responded well to dopamine and serotonin increases - except one. This one exception has had this problem at an incredibly high level ever since very early childhood. It has become so convoluted that I didn't realise the plain obvious underlying problem for a very long time. She has been treated for all sorts of mental illnesses by a variety of doctors and I have long been convinced that it was something much less involved as everyone else though (everyone had a different idea anyway). I figure if I can fix her, then this will provide the outside paramters of the problem and should make the treatment of anyone else with ADHD (and whatever develops from it) much easier.

Childrens neurosystems are much more fluid and it would be MUCH easier to fix the problem in the early years rather than at age 20, 30 or later. After a few months or years (depending on severity and on the individual) the system re-regulate themselves. I guess this is like learned behaviour. If you are always sad, then you will not seek out happiness anymore and simply accept that you are a sad person. YOu can substitute the word sad with just about any adjective here - violent, insane, paranoid, lonely, etc. These are all behaviours we can learn and then accept as the baseline. While supplementation and pharmaceuticals can attempt to change the levels and provide the biochemical basis for change, often what is required is a reset of the behaviour. This can sometimes be triggered by a sgnificant event in the persons life, but it can also be triggered 'artificially' with psychoactive drugs. The work MAPS is doing with psilocybin looks to be heading in that direction.

Anyway, there is so much more. It is constantly evolving and I wish I had more time to dedicate to it. I guess I should save this so i can put it on the site

[Guest electro]

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[This message has been edited by electro (edited 13 October 2002).]

[Torsten]

I wonder if that is how ritalin works....

[John_Barleycorn]

Originally posted by Torsten:

I wonder if that is how ritalin works....

I believe that, like cocaine, Ritalin is largely a dopamine re-uptake inhibitor (unlike amphetamine, which is largely a dopamine releaser). I use the word "largely" because I am sure that lots of other things are going on as well.

[Guest electro]

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[This message has been edited by electro (edited 13 October 2002).]