cardon

[TIHKAL]

so we have had a pretty good discussion on this cacti here on tribes, check out the link...

http://tribes.tribe.net/ethnobotany/thread...80-c23a4d342756

and feel free to join us its a good group of folks.

here is the links to sasha and earl discussion on the cardon at the sacred elixers conferance. they are pretty great.

http://www.plantconsciousness.com/medi...1.mp3

http://www.plantconsciousness.com/medi...2.mp3

now i didnt hear any negatives about this from shulgin thats why i was surprised to hear from apothocary that he had heard differant. if you have any links or could relay the info it would be much appriciated and we would really like to here it on the ethnobotnay tribe.

some good links for obtaining cardon...

www.ethnogens.com/saguaro.html

good god the freaking jack pot here...you know i am getting pretty good at finding shit online...

www.dfranch.com/source/sag...forsale.php

www.dfranch.com/source/sag...forsale.php

www.ethnobotany-australia.net/php....php

jesus and even ebay lol!!!!

cgi.ebay.com/CARDON-MEXI...cmdZViewItem

http://www.getnet.net/~richarde/cactusstor...atalog.htm#pL22

and some more links...

www.azarius.net/news.php

www.plantconsciousness.com/sacr...s.htm

is that it... uh yeah... ok so thats what we have on cardon... i hope that pleases the natives...

this might very well be the largest entheogen in the world...

i think i am in love...

[apothecary]

http://mdma.net/alexander-shulgin/professor-x.html

JUST AFTER sunset on a cool California evening last fall, Alexander Shulgin prepared to test the effects of the cactus Pachycereus pringlei on himself, his wife, and 10 other subjects. The group, which included two chemists and an anthropologist, gathered in the living room of a redwood house deep in the woods to help Shulgin with his research into psychedelic cacti. A few months earlier, the anthropologist had told Shulgin that this particular variety was worth looking into - a cave painting in Mexico suggested it might have psychoactive properties. Through chromatography, Shulgin determined that P. pringlei probably was a mild psychedelic, but "the establishment of its human pharmacology requires that it be consumed by man." So Shulgin dissolved the extract of the cactus into fruit juice, then poured a 4-ounce cup for each person. But his experiment went awry. "At about the two-hour point, my visual experiences became totally swamped by an overwhelming fear of moving," recalls Shulgin, the 77-year-old chemist who introduced ecstasy to the world. His wife, Ann, had an even more severe reaction. Out on the deck, she remembers, "I could see the full moon shining down on me with what felt like chilling contempt, and I thought, What an awful, stupid way to die." With her pulse racing, she went inside to check on her husband, who was upstairs in one of the bedrooms, lying still in the dark. "He said he was OK as long as he didn't move." Early the next morning, Shulgin assembled his test group, still in pajamas, to assess the effects of the cactus extract. All 12 of them had taken the same compound, but half had become violently ill, while the other six had the kind of pleasant but unremarkable experience Shulgin expected. The results, he decided, were inconclusive.

[TIHKAL]

http://mdma.net/alexander-shulgin/professor-x.html

thanks for that good article, well written. listen to the new and i mean very recent sacred elixers mp3 though there is zero mention of this in it. and he is all excited about this. if it was such a bad trip then you would think he would have mentioned it and given some warning. weird... this was written in 2004 two years ago and the new info is 2 years later. like i said wierd he didnt mention this. but on the one hand the fact he didnt mention it is a good thing right?

but there is nothing to indicate from his latest speach on the subject to have any fear of this cacti. perhaps this was an isolated incident. we wil have to "ask shulgin" about this when he is back at the Cognative liberty weeb page.

[hebrew]

hmm that is interesting apoth

i still think more research needs to be done with this cactus

but i think this info needs to be taken on board for sure.

[TIHKAL]

hmm that is interesting apoth

i still think more research needs to be done with this cactus

but i think this info needs to be taken on board for sure.

a defintely agree...

[apothecary]

Other members of this genus have been reported active too, so it's a big target without too much chance of missing to find another active cactus.

[whiterasta]

I do not think Cadon` will propagate well from cuttings. My experience with them is they are sensative to humidity and cold . I lost a number of 6 inch plants before I learned to keep the greeen house below 70% humidity.

I also live in the coast range of the PNW so moisture is a large problem with growing mexican cacti, at least for me.

I am curious how a seedling would react to transplanting to Perskiopsis or Trichocereus. IMO one would have more sucess with this than rooting cuttings.The plants can be removed with the graft stock to root rather than an open wound on a large cutting trying to heal and root

Personally I would graft the tip to a donor stock in this manner

or to a mytillocactus

I will be all ears when you report on Cardon` It grows wild almost weed like where my wifes g=parents winter. If you can get cuttings to root I will be asking them for several when they return next year. Other wise I will be sending the some cash to bring back a couple nice large ones drom a local nursery in arizona

Peace,

WR

[Gunter]

Earl Crockett's experience, he was the man who re-discovered the Cardon's sacramental use, was much more positive than Shulgins, but it seems that Shulgin did not incorporate a sacred context as Earl did. Another person took it after Earl did a woman, and she reported an interesting experience too.

I wonder about the setting, tone and people involved in Shulgin and allies bioassays...

[whiterasta]

I have wondered this too Archaea also about the seasonal alkloidal profile and the prior diet of the Shulgin group. The info seems to point a MAOI or MAOI-like effect (I consider beta-carbolines an example of MAOI -like as there is some other effect beyond the targeted pharmeceutical true MAOI)...perhaps?

In this case if Cardon` contains a true short term MAOI then previous diet could account for many negative symptoms.

For myself I will only use cactus after several days of strict La Dieta. It makes for FAR less to purge of the physical and concentrates the purge on the overall health physical/emotional/spiritual being more in balance and less physical preload to work out during the time with Achuma Especially the bridgesii variants as I believe them to posses an MAOI-like effect perhaps even a true maoi. I believe them to be some as yet undescribed isoquinoline or perhaps even high levels of quercetin and kaempherol. I would suggest similar respect to the use of Cardon` as far as La Dieta prior and possibly several days after. Meditative prayer and rhythmic motion seem to assist somatic problems/ uncomfortablities they may also play a role in the use of Cardon`

WR

[Gunter]

In the talk Shulgin mentions that the pachycereus has chemicals with very strong MAOI action, there is no reason to assume they are MAOI-A selective reversible short term inhibitors like the betacarbolines in Caapi. Eat some caapi and a lot of chocolate and you are fine, do that with a irreversible long term inhibitor and you have trouble.

The duration of the experience suggest some short term inhibition, but the effects of his group bioassay suggest that the bad effects were the result of MAOI combined with some other substance likely eaten previously. In the group with no effect, the MAOI could have easily taken effect but the lack of adverse reaction suggest that these people did not take something previous that would interact with MAOI in an adverse way.

Now as for the active, Shulgin suggest N methymescaline might be one of the activated compounds, it stands to reason that in his group bioassay members may have received enough MAOI to cause adverse effects with food interaction but received insufficient amounts of the chemical that would be activated.

Shulgins bioassay group is also a bunch of experiences trippers, there are some good reasons for this but it also works against them and there results and hinders their objectivity due to both expectation and the significant potential that members of his group could respond to certain chemicals differently due to the history of the group taking psychoactives. Despite the protests of many users, it seems likely that some synthetics are mild neurotoxins that do cause changes in the brain and body and that their use over time does permanently affect the users, not in the worst way, but not in a productive way either.

Several PEA'S are known to have some MAOI effect, MDA for example, as well as mescaline.

Edited May 17, 2006 by Archaea

[whiterasta]

From what I suspect of the Shulgin experiments there were no MAOI precautions taken with the high probability of cheeses and wines to have been part of the diet prior to the experiments. My "theory" is the MAOI's present are nowhere as forgiving as the beta-carboline MAOI-like compounds and previous diet played strongly into the experience. When the added info from THIKAL that shamanic use of T. bridgesii is coupled with a strict diet reinforces the idea of taking MAOI precautions when using any "new" poorly understood cacti (include all known psychoactive cacti in this group). Since my first experience with a quart of bridgesii snot and La Purga resulting it was made clear to me to eat correctly for several days prior and after.

WR

[Gunter]

I have read of some specific diets for San Pedro use and know of someone who has had both mescaline sulfate and brewed cactus cause headaches when combined with some (tyramine rich?) foods and beverages.

[apothecary]

Personally, I don't think we should attribute the activity to any particular neurochemical action until we actually know.

Nobody can say for sure that the action (wholly or partly) of T. bridgesii is because of MAO inhibition, and the speculation that started that idea (still unfounded) has basically lingered around ever since. (at least to my understanding, if anyone has references for MAOI activity in bridgesii, please post)

Do we really want to do the same thing to the Pachycereus genus because of reported ill effects by a generally respected member of the community.

High probability of cheese and wine? Heh... I would say if anyone was prepared to group bioassay a new cactus and actually take possibilites like MAOI activity into consideration, it would be Shulgin and company.

At best we can say, like most powerful entheogens, there have been reports of extremely good results and the opposite end of the spectrum again, even from the same material.

I assume this reply is gonna get some people a little miffed, but please actually consider what I'm saying before we start up the flamethrowers

[whiterasta]

Nobody can say for sure that the action (wholly or partly) of T. bridgesii is because of MAO inhibition, and the speculation that started that idea (still unfounded) has basically lingered around ever since. (at least to my understanding, if anyone has references for MAOI activity in bridgesii, please post links)

I will look for the link which describes kaempherol and quercetin as unique MAOI's(up to 90% inhibition) and also their presence in T.bridgesii. Anyone got it handy?

[TIHKAL]

From what I suspect of the Shulgin experiments there were no MAOI precautions taken with the high probability of cheeses and wines to have been part of the diet prior to the experiments. My "theory" is the MAOI's present are nowhere as forgiving as the beta-carboline MAOI-like compounds and previous diet played strongly into the experience. When the added info from THIKAL that shamanic use of T. bridgesii is coupled with a strict diet reinforces the idea of taking MAOI precautions when using any "new" poorly understood cacti (include all known psychoactive cacti in this group). Since my first experience with a quart of bridgesii snot and La Purga resulting it was made clear to me to eat correctly for several days prior and after.

WR

well i think its important not to confuse the maois in cacti with the maois in rue or caapi.

i mean yohimbi is an maoi and one doesnt have to monitor thier diet with yohimbine. i dont think that like with bridgesii you need to monitor what you eat at all.

i want to make clear that migeul dieted with achum becuase that is his tradition, the dieta is a sort of near taboo or ritual purification they do with any plant not just ayahuasca because of the maois.

just wanted to clarify that...

but you know with the cardon who knows!

[TIHKAL]

Personally, I don't think we should attribute the activity to any particular neurochemical action until we actually know.

Nobody can say for sure that the action (wholly or partly) of T. bridgesii is because of MAO inhibition, and the speculation that started that idea (still unfounded) has basically lingered around ever since. (at least to my understanding, if anyone has references for MAOI activity in bridgesii, please post)

Do we really want to do the same thing to the Pachycereus genus because of reported ill effects by a generally respected member of the community.

High probability of cheese and wine? Heh... I would say if anyone was prepared to group bioassay a new cactus and actually take possibilites like MAOI activity into consideration, it would be Shulgin and company.

At best we can say, like most powerful entheogens, there have been reports of extremely good results and the opposite end of the spectrum again, even from the same material.

I assume this reply is gonna get some people a little miffed, but please actually consider what I'm saying before we start up the flamethrowers

no thats a good point man!

[whiterasta]

It may also be a completly new potentiation not associated with MAO activity such as the synergy of cannabinoids which produce specific effects among variants. until more is KNOWN please consider this all speculation. What I percieve is a MAOI-like effect but that is a subjective opinion not assay or clinical trial. And this for T. bridgesii not Cardon` which I have no experience with.

"i mean yohimbi is an maoi and one doesnt have to monitor thier diet with yohimbine"

Yohimbe should never be mixed with sympathomimetics such as phenethylamines or amphetamines. hypertensive crisis is likely.

As far as La Dieta as I said it does reduce the physical aspects of La Purga while enhancing the spiritual and I personally will not partake in ritual without at least two days of a light cleansing diet, no sex and ritual bathing and prayer. This is the knowlege I was given with my first bridgesii achuma. I must add I had a more powerful panchanoi experience prior and was not imparted any such knowlege but gained a great healing of my heart, which had been severly wounded by western medicine. Other achumas have been weak(peruvianus icaro) and some of my own collection but I do have a powerful panchanoi and many bridgesoids ALL speak with their own voice and make their own demands on the student. I expect Cardon` to be no different in that regard. I will probably meet it's spirit someday, until then I will remain in the classroom of Achuma T. bridgesii

WR

[Gunter]

We do know the pachycereus material contained alkaloids Shulgin sent away for testing, they showed strong MAOI action.

We also know that PEA's can have MAOI effects and that a very strict diet is used for some cacti.

It stands to reason that guesses about the negative effects being linked to MAOI are educated guesses, not wild speculation, they could be wrong, but they are based on fact.

I don't share your assertion that Shulgins group would have considered the MAOI in depth, if anything that is the one area Shulgin has only waded in and never fully explored.

Yomhimbe is a weak MAOI, not even viable as one for the most part.

Edited May 18, 2006 by Archaea

[apothecary]

We do know the pachycereus material contained alkaloids Shulgin sent away for testing, they showed strong MAOI action.

Link?

We also know that PEA's can have MAOI effects

Just found this paper if anyone wanted a reference for that claim

http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/abstract.cgi/j.../jm0493109.html

Sulfur-Substituted -Alkyl Phenethylamines as Selective and Reversible MAO-A Inhibitors

A series of phenethylamine derivatives with various ring substituents and with or without N-methyl and/or C- methyl or ethyl groups was synthesized and assayed for their ability reversibly to inhibit monoamine oxidase A (MAO-A) and monoamine oxidase B (MAO-. Several compounds showed potent and selective MAO-A inhibitory activity (IC50 in the submicromolar range) but none showed appreciable activity toward MAO-B.

Re:

there is no reason to assume they are MAOI-A selective reversible short term inhibitors like the betacarbolines in Caapi.

So I would say there is MAOI activity, it would be most likely short acting reversible MAO-A inhibition.

It stands to reason that guesses about the negative effects being linked to MAOI are educated guesses, not wild speculation, they could be wrong, but they are based on fact.

Yeah it could be wrong it could be right, I'm saying lets find out before we set our ideas in stone, I have enough trouble bioassaying things without my brain trying to link the effects im experiencing to a specific neurochemical activity.

I don't share your assertion that Shulgins group would have considered the MAOI in depth, if anything that is the one area Shulgin has only waded in and never fully explored.

I dunno dude. You said it yourself, lots of PEAs have MAOI activity, and Shulgin literally wrote the book on PEAs , how could he not take such a concept into consideration? I am sure he would be aware, look at this snippet

http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/shulgin/ad...psychedelic.htm

My present pursuits are the psychoactive cacti. A good example is a relatively unexplored columnar giant called Pachycereus pringlei. In the published literature, there have been five compounds reported as being present. I have seen four of these, and have obtained mass spectra of 18 additional compounds. Some of these new components I have already identified, but none of these is known to be active in man. And yet I know that the cactus is active as I have actually eaten it and have gotten real effects. Could this be an example of a plant that contains two compounds that are active in combination whereas neither one is active as an isolated chemical? Such things are known in nature.

How can you say he wouldn't at least have considered it, having had probably a better look at the phytochemistry than anyone else?

Edited May 19, 2006 by apothecary

[TIHKAL]

have you guys listened to shulgins whole mp3 from the site i left for you?

he starts talking about cardonine which he has isolated from cardon as being a maoi for PEAs and he started talking about seeing pharmacactihuasca. thatsw towards the end of the mp3... if some one wanted to listen and type it up that would be cool... it would probably put the debate to a slight rest.

i am pretty sure shulgin knows now that its a maoi becuase thats what he said. whether or not he knew it ???????

[Gunter]

I've hear the talk, it is about 2 hours and Shulgin's part is the second part. That is where he mentions he sent off some of the Pachycereus stuff to see if it has MAOI effects, with a company that checks for the MAOI stuff.

Shulgin wrote the book on PEA's, but the idea of PEA's being both the activator and the active component seems new to him. This is relevant as that a lot of the compounds passed off as inactive in Shulgins early bioassays may have been active when protected from MAO. In reading TIHKAL Shulgin also mentions that much of the investigation of betacarboline MAOI's is as he says, both promising and virgin territory.

In a talk I heard in some of what I have read Shulgin is also rather dismissive of the activity of the betacarbolines alone, I think this stems from his specific experiences but that those experiences were discouraging. I am quite curious to know if he as ever dreamed with caapi alone. I think that knowing that some (synthetic) betacarbolines were neurotoxic and having bad experiences caused Shulgin to shy away from betacarbolines in general and to a somewhat related extent MAOI as well.

[TIHKAL]

hey you just reached 666 posts! congrats!

[Gunter]

Um thanks I suppose.

[-YT-]

Some Interesting Info i came across while Searching for various info. Taken from this link http://forums.mycotopia.net/showthread.php?t=12296

"Pachycereus pecten-aboriginum:

A multi-purpose plant from which the juice of the young branches is employed by the Tarahumara to make the narcotic beverage "cawe," "chawe," or "wichowaka" (insanity). The beverage causes dizziness and visual hallucinations. It is also used for purely medicinal purposes. The related P. weberi contains upwards of 30 different alkaloids. 5, 9, 10

3,4-dimethoxyphenetylamine Salsolidine 3-hydroxy-4-methoxyphenethylamine 4-hydroxy-3-methoxyphenethylamine Arizonine Carnegine Heliamine Isosolsoline Solsoline"

[t st tantra]

I've hear the talk, it is about 2 hours and Shulgin's part is the second part. That is where he mentions he sent off some of the Pachycereus stuff to see if it has MAOI effects, with a company that checks for the MAOI stuff.

Shulgin wrote the book on PEA's, but the idea of PEA's being both the activator and the active component seems new to him. This is relevant as that a lot of the compounds passed off as inactive in Shulgins early bioassays may have been active when protected from MAO. In reading TIHKAL Shulgin also mentions that much of the investigation of betacarboline MAOI's is as he says, both promising and virgin territory.

In a talk I heard in some of what I have read Shulgin is also rather dismissive of the activity of the betacarbolines alone, I think this stems from his specific experiences but that those experiences were discouraging. I am quite curious to know if he as ever dreamed with caapi alone. I think that knowing that some (synthetic) betacarbolines were neurotoxic and having bad experiences caused Shulgin to shy away from betacarbolines in general and to a somewhat related extent MAOI as well.

my understanding is that shulgin didnt think much of mdma and if others hadnt told him it was good stuff it wouldnt be what it is today!

t s t .