PSYCHOACTIVE AMANITAS

[Francois le Danque]

Are they legal here or what? Australia that is. I was thinking they were perfectly legal bu i've begun to think otherwise... .

Erowid just says importation may be controlled and just confuses matters.

perhaps they are illegal to sell for human consumption?

[Rev]

its straightforward

Muscimol is schedule 9

same as Heroin and most other fun stuff

(cocaine is S8 because it has medical uses but the drug statutes still apply)

seeing that the law deems the herb to be the drug then importing Amanita muscaria shrooms would be like importing muscimol

Same goes for possession

but who actually knows this in law enforcement? no idea but its never talked about

even most of the field guide books say TOXIC or even deadly (scoff ROTFLMAO) more often than hallucinogenic, which they kind of arent anyway!?. The same in society, instantly recognisable shrooms but just as instantly avoided and dismissed as poison - and wrongly so

most know about psilocybe but Amanitas seem well off the radar of public knowledge

So far as a iknow we are the only place in teh world that deemed it necessary to ban these things

such is the attitude of our govet that it must move to protect us from any potential self harm

dont fret tho

you can PYO in southern australia in winter

as a Jerky they make a good addition to chicken soup. like natural MSG

go easy tho ;)

Hmm edit aftertought

some saffron with that amainta chicken soup would be nice wouldnt it ;)

Edited April 16, 2006 by Rev

[Francois le Danque]

what does PYO stand for?

oh pick your own...that makes sense

edit: oh and i wasn't planning on buying them...geez they're everywhere here in winter!

actually, does anyone know if there is a chemial difference between the amanitas found here in comparison with say, siberia? because aparently the ones here cause many adverse reactions whereas they are relatively rare over there....just a thought.

Edited April 16, 2006 by frank

[Rev]

preparation techniques play a role

[apothecary]

People don't always follow the traditional ingestion method.

Adverse reaction occurs when you don't dry properly and end up with some ibotenic acid (which is converted to muscimol on drying) still in the mushrooms flesh. This compound is indeed highly poisonous.

On top of that there may indeed be local variations in chemistry due to innumerable variables such as temp, altitude, location and so on, who knows, I haven't found any peer reviewed (or other) reseach on the issue.

Also depends on how the mushroom got there. Maybe spores came over the ocean with Siberian P. radiata imports, maybe not.

No offense frank, but a lot of your questions could be answered if you just used the search engine before posting.

[Rev]

Pinus radiata = Monterey pine

Habitat

Native Range

"Native stands of Monterey pine are found in three distinct areas of central-coastal California in San Mateo, Santa Cruz, Monterey, and San Luis Obispo Counties. The northernmost stand is east of point Año Nuevo, the central stand 48 km (30 mi) to the south near Monterey and Carmel, and the southernmost stand about 105 km (65 mi) away in the Pico Creek-Cambria area (15). Seldom is the pine found more than 11 km (7 mi) from the sea. The north-south range is about 209 km (130 mi). A close relative of Monterey pine also inhabits the northeastern portion of Guadalupe Island and the northern and central parts of Cedros Island-both of which are Mexican possessions. Guadalupe Island is 740 km (460 mi) south of Cambria, and Cedros Island is 908 km (564 mi) south-southeast of Cambria. Although trees on these islands differ in morphology from those in the United States, they have now been shown to be most closely related to P. radiata (21).

The area occupied by natural stands of Monterey pine on the United States mainland was once well defined, even though estimates of the total area ranged from 4860 to 6480 ha (12,000 to 16,000 acres) (28). Precise natural limits, however, are now difficult to determine because of conspicuous amounts of new regeneration. The southern part of the forest at Año Nuevo, for example, is estimated to have increased by as much as 95 ha (235 acres) in recent decades (14). Additional trees have been planted, and these also have produced seed that led to many acres of new reproduction. Nevertheless, the total area currently occupied probably is no more than 8000 ha (19,770 acres) (21)."

http://www.springerlink.com/(ui0thu55bxmio...ults,1:100386,1

so..

Not from Siberia

Itd be VERY cool to go hunting edibles in those primary forests. spores from boletes and others there would be suitable for innoculation abroad

Its always amazing how locally restricted planst can just take over when moved a little sideways

Tagasaste is another one - only found in a tiny part of the canary islands but now everywhere with a mediterranean climate.

Its hard to say where our amanitas came from

they are orange to red

maybe european, maybe asian, or maybe nth america??

itd make a good honours project for a molecular taxonomist

Edited April 16, 2006 by Rev

[apothecary]

My bad, I am beginning my learnings on this mycorrhizal stuff, and assumed P. radiata was the Siberian one.

You can't have it both ways though Rev, we kidnap a molecular taxonomist and give them either Trichocereus or Amanita...maybe we need to kidnap two? :ph34r:

[Rev]

kidnap them all

if they resist feed them amanitas and trichocereus until they comply

[Francois le Danque]

No offence taken apothecary, probably a good idea .

yeah well the search engine tells me that Amanitas are illegal to cultivate or possess in ACT definitely (taken from the "ACT drug dependance act 1989") and that the same rules apply elsewhere, but this is only what people have said.

maybe i AM a little bit of a n00b after all.....

[spiders]

I actually know someone who the cops stopped and she had two large amanita muscaras in her hands. The cops asked her what she was doing and she said she worked for a pre-school and was collecting them to show the children.

This was actually true and he police bought the explanation without investigation and left her to go on her way.

[alkatrope]

Would it be difficult sending small quantities of dried cap overseas?

Theoretically, if one were to package 40 or so grams of the material and send it overseas, with a label saying the contents are another plant which appears similar but is legal - would customs easily stop it leaving the country? I'm quite sure they haven't trained dogs to smell for Muscimol as yet..

[foolsbreath]

It would be rather silly idea.

Most plant material is not allowed due to the possibility of pathogens at best, at worst it could get the person you are sending them too in to a fair bit of trouble

[alkatrope]

It would be rather silly idea.

Most plant material is not allowed due to the possibility of pathogens at best, at worst it could get the person you are sending them too in to a fair bit of trouble

Even if it is perfectly legal in their country?

[foolsbreath]

Theoretically, if one were to package 40 or so grams of the material and send it overseas, with a label saying the contents are another plant which appears similar but is legal - would customs easily stop it leaving the country? I'm quite sure they haven't trained dogs to smell for Muscimol as yet..

I don't think customs check outgoing mail too much, but not many westernised countries will allow any plant material unless it has been treated, fumigated or has a licence from the manufacturer to vouch for the material being uncontaminated. They may hold it and fumigate them selves at charge to your mate without this. Spores would be a different matter

[alkatrope]

Thanks

[Rev]

yes technically all prohibited imports are prohibied exports

but

in practise you can send any plant you like out of oz

just refuse to show ID

fill in the C2 form and say you dont care about ID - the c2 was good eneough b4 why not now? nothing has changed but in ther minds - they can do what they like

[mutant]

Wow!

I find it really strange that muscimol is illegal in Australia. I only thought they were somewhat controlled in Israel only. But I just read in Erowid this is also disputed. Since I am not from Australia, I have some experience with Amanitas. I also sent erowid a note about Australia legal status of this ancient 'entheogen'.

Some general notes from my general knowledge:

Amanita muscaria likes all mixed woods, not some specific tree only. You also have another candidate, Amanita pantherina which is much more 'dangerous' to experiment, due to extreme potency. A proper preparation is indeed necessary, but ibotenic acid isn't really dangerous [though it has been proven neurotoxic through direct injection to rats brains] - indeed it is slightly nauseous and thus the traditional preparation aimed in the conversion of ibotenic acid to muscimole....

What often causes additional unpleasant side effects is muscarine which is present in minor amounts, and it seems some areas produce muscarine richer muscarias. Amarican species f.e. seem to have enough muscarine to sometimes cause sweating, extreme salivation & muscle twitching.

Amanitas are highly variable mushrooms. They're often considered unpleasant and unwanted. They demand a careful approach. I can say they're not for the hasty and they're certainly NOT a replacement for the illegal psilocybes. Feel free to PM me for more

[Vertmorpheus]

I find plenty of specimens of a diminutive strain of Amanita muscaria var. formosa under hickory wattles on gully overflows on deco granite, at a few spots in SEQ... mainly in spring and summer after a lil but not too much rain. Never eaten one, I like my liver it comes in handy for things

VM

[t st tantra]

i found a dwarf amanita lookalike in soz,rev ided it in another thread.......cant remember

t s t .

[mutant]

Never eaten one, I like my liver it comes in handy for things

Do you have any facts, or it's only what you have heard of amanitas, being liver-toxic. I believe so too, I have heard some stuff like this, but never a really good source. It might be even more dangerous for casual alcohol drinkers, but I don't believe it's so toxic to prevent you from having a couple of experiences. And I am quite sure it's less toxic than alcohol for the liver... or not??

[Vertmorpheus]

No "facts" no... just the odd reading here or there they're not real good for you at all, and prone to being over-valued or over-hyped by vendors and people that write "legal high" documents

Alcohol isnt real good for you either, on the other hand I can drink a whole bottle of rum in one evening and wake up more or less fine the next day, and I'm not sure enough that I could do the asme with a fistful of weird fungus and wake up fine ... so thats the decision made.

Much easier to go munchin things when u dont have to worry about your offspring finding your bloated corpse in the morning, or not getting your life insurance payout because u were doing silly things ;)

VM

[mutant]

Alright, interesting!

Amanitas are over-estimated or over-hyped by idiots and/or people who do have profit off their selling [they call me vendor], but for someone who is basically informed that is not the case, no? I also think that it might have something to do with Amanitas not being native to Australia, as they are not really dangerous - sure they can be scary if you don't know what you're doing, or even knowing, at big doses...

Even though I will not propose to anyone to ingest any illegal psychoactives [well, illegal in Australia anyway], I really do have to say that Amanitas [according to Siberian people, I think, who reportedly replaced Amanita inebriation with alcohol] are less toxic/damaging than alcohol [no reference available at the moment] - and also preferable, according to tha same source, but that's another case...

Moreover, amanitas not only do they have NO hangover, but on the contrary the bring out a pleasant afterglow tha day/days after when they're not mixed with something else, like alcohol f.e. and finally that they're not really dangerous, just very hard to work with, as a material.

People who can drink a bottle a hard liquer or a case of beers in one sitting and take pleasure on it, or even have 'insights' [joy, passion, philosophy, great thoughts, empathy, unity feelings etc] , and that includes me as well, could find something worthy in amanitas and as well take interest on them. Or especially those people ;)

Edited February 7, 2008 by mutant

[Vertmorpheus]

The liver thing is about as factual as anything in plants gets... its not a "rumour" or an "old wives tale". People die from eating some Amanitas, and those that dont, often have incredibly fucked up livers. As for no hangover... I'd call this a hangover >

"Case 3: Washington man, 47, ate the cap and part of the rest of one mushroom at one meal for food. Symptom onset was 8-10 hours but he waited an additional 12-14 hours to get help. He had diarrhea, dizziness, high fever, intestinal cramps, nausea, sweating, vomiting and weakness. He was near coma when brought in. His liver and kidneys shut down completely. He later went into a coma and had a blood infection. He was placed on full life support and given hemodialysis. Four and a half months later he is still in a nursing home, still very weak and too ill to care for himself with his kidneys at about 80% function, liver still compromised, but blood infection nearly gone."

How do you define a hangover then?

I think they get a rep for being toxic because they're ...well... toxic? Call me strange, but I know I can scarf a handful of meanies, have a blast, and not get into any troubles... ditto with a few drinks, a few tokes of certain plants, whatever... but just because something is maligned and negatively regarded, doesnt mean you can automatically assume it MUST be some kind of "secret agent" plant, lurking around, waiting to "enlighten" those that "need it the most winky face".

As for having the basic information... I do. I've looked thru whats available, and decided against em. Likewise, I've decided against meth, eccies, heroin, research chems in general, ibogaine, cane toads, all manner of things that plenty of people have used "safely" but are just not safe enough for me.

From mushroomexpert.com

"The effects of consuming this species are exceedingly unpredictable; some people remain unaffected while others have similar, or different, symptoms to those above, and at least one death is attributed to A. muscaria. This unpredictability is due to the fungus containing different amounts of the toxins ibotenic acid and muscimol according to season, method of cooking and ingestion, as well as the subject’s state of mind."

And yes, many species of fungus get called "toxic" when they're just entertaining... but plenty don't. And making a post essentially stating that "All specimens of the genus Amanita are safe to consume, disregard all negative info about them" is extremely irresponsible.... kids read this site. People with no clue at all, start here... and there are plenty of people that have ended up very very sick for assuming that "since this Psilo shroom is written up as poisonois in this book, therefore EVERY species written up as toxic MUST be secretly hallucinagenic". Dangerous state of affairs, anyway.

If my obligations were limited to daytime TV and playing with my dick, like some lucky bastards out there, then I'd probably dose with almost anything. But theyre not, and I need a> a reliable timeline of effects b> a reliable outcome and c> a reliable expectation of not needing to call an ambulance. I live in a very small town, everyone knows everyone, and within a day of callin the ambos every nana in shooting distance would tag me as "the suicidal mushroom guy". Other things I really dont need.

Ibogaine isnt lethal when used by the "right people"... doesn't necess mean I feel like trying it, or should try it on some vague "tick all the boxes on the erowid big chart" principle. Likewise rubbing burnt toad pus into your cuts sounds moderately altering too... for some reason, its not on my list of things to do. It has nothing to do with paradigms, nationality, cultural background... just sounds a bit harsh to me. Note: Me. Not to discredit the thousands of years old tradition of other people rubbing frog on themselves...though doing something for a long time doesnt mean its sensible, just available... yknow personally it just has no appeal.

So yeah... ya quite right... they're not "dangerous" just hard to work with... like heroin... and THATS Not dangerous is it, as long as its clean, of knnown potency, used by experienced and educated people ... oh... yeah.... then again some of us arent really interested in "hard to work with" either... call it a copout, a cultural failing, a lack of whatever... I prefer to think of it as "theres plenty of crazy single bastards out there than can try the lucky dip drugs, I'll stick to the reliable and mostly pleasant ones thankyeverymuch" I wouldn't eat a phial of liquid LSD of unknown potency, but I might have a crack at a blotter of reasonably standardised potency. I certainly wouldnt drink the phial if it was described as "probably mostly LSD but it mighta changed or turned into somethign else by now... nah youll be right mate".

Also not sure if they are or aren't native to Australia, I'm forever finding em close by certain wattles, (esp muscaria var. formosa and A. franchetti while they are often lacking in local pine plantations etc... it might also be that what "looks like" certain fungi here, are actually something else, just puttin on similar clothing... I don't own a microscope so I don't stuff about. As I said, its a lot easier to take the heroic "on principle" approach when you don't have children. Or do, and don't mind as much if they grow up without a Dad.

Also must be remembered that some fungus that is eaten happily in say Siberia PROBABLY (just maybe) has a SLIGHTLY different set of climatic conditions etc to contend with than one growing say 10 feet from my back door, copping 35 deg c days and 80 percent humidity, etc. That'd have to fuck with how they perform, or maybe it doesnt. Someone without any dependents and nothing much to live for can experiement though, and get back to me with the results

I have a hard time understanding why youre waving the flag that much, with nothing written on it but "Amanita"... have you heard of phallloides? now, i might just be a mycophobic ignorant colonialist but I'm reasonably sure that a Deathcap is called a Deathcap for a reason.... and that theres no "safe" way to eat em. Likewise, lots n lots of people have eaten muscarias , had a blast, didnt die... but it simply doesnt sound like much fun, once the downsides are taken into account, and it'd be an evening I could use for something more pleasant.

Just about any "drugs" are toxic at some level, its just a matter of toxicity relative to enjoyment level... and some of us tolerate a lower ratio than others.... we don't all have to try everything, otherwise I'd be downstairs sniffing paint stripper for a giggle.

from Mushroomexpert.com ...

Amanita Bravado

"Amanita Bravado" is not a rare species of amanita; it's a behavioral disorder. Sometimes, mushroom hunters with considerable identification skills are able to successfully identify and eat some of the non-poisonous amanitas--like Amanita rubescens or Amanita novinupta--without experiencing ill effects. However, amanitas are poorly known in North America, and Amanita rubescens, for example, does not even occur on our continent, despite its inclusion in North American treatments (including this site). People who eat amanitas, in my humble opinion, are exercising poor judgment. But the real problem occurs when these people begin to brag about eating amanitas. In some mushroom clubs and mycological societies, experienced mushroomers love to engage in Amanita Bravado, and daring to eat amanitas can become almost a rite of passage for new and inexperienced club members. This is a dangerous state of affairs for obvious reasons, and the people involved have made little social progress since high school. If you have enjoyed a nice meal of amanitas, keep it to yourself. Bragging about it only creates social pressure for others, with less identification experience, to make a potentially fatal mistake.

Since the odds are high that some readers of this Web page have typed "Amanita muscaria" into a search engine and have arrived here without knowing the slightest thing about mushrooms and their identification, let me say this as plainly as I can: You are stupid if you eat this mushroom. Yes, it may get you high--and no, I am not some uptight jerk who cares whether you take (safe) psychoactive drugs. What I care about is that if you pick wild mushrooms and eat them, trying to get high, you could easily kill yourself by misidentifying your quarry. And even if you identify Amanita muscaria correctly, you may not only get high but also put yourself in the hospital, since it contains dangerous as well as psychoactive toxins.

I invite you to browse the online Reports of the Mushroom Poisoning Case Registry (MPCR) to see what can happen when you eat Amanita muscaria, and to read Roger Phillips's lengthy comments on the species, here. Astoundingly, the poisoning cases reported to the MPCR include not only thrill seekers, but a high number of folks who thought they were eating "puffballs." Un-expanded, still-pale buttons of Amanita muscaria (like the one in the last photo by Don McLeod, to the right) may look like puffballs on casual examination, but when sliced open reveal the mushroom-to-be in cross-section (see this photo of a different Amanita species sliced open for an example)."

In short, if you wanna eat em, eat em, if someone else doesnt want to....thats really their business isn't it? I was fairly sure the SAB ethos has more to do with making your own informed, personally relevant choices regarding drugs plants and chemicals, rather than an "all or nothing" approach.... I'm reasonably sure thats what we're "fighting against" around here?

VM

edity bit... why "Amanitas arent much fun sometimes" from http://www.sph.umich.edu/~kwcee/mpcr/2004Case.htm

taken from Mushroom Poisoning Case Registry North American Mycological Association - http://www.sph.umich.edu/~kwcee/mpcr/

Amanita bisporigera. (August 2003): Qu�bec, male, 56, ate mushroom cooked for food. Ten hours later symptom onset involved diarrhea, vomiting, nausea, intestinal cramps, sweating, vomiting and weakness. Treated with activated charcoal every 4 hours for 72 hours with remission of the hepatic symptoms observed. Case 2: Minnesota, a man, 87, became ill 8 hours after eating mushrooms collected in a Minnesota park. His liver enzymes were found to be elevated and he died ("bled out") in about 2 days. The death, not from liver failure, was what Dr. Denis Benjamin postulates as "possible intestinal perforation, an uncommon and lethal complication of amatoxin poisoning" complicated by failure of the coagulation system.

Amanita muscaria. Case 1: Idaho/Montana border, two adults and 2 adolescents picked mushrooms they believed to be Matsutakes. They cooked and ate several mushrooms from a mixed collection, of which one species was Amanita muscaria. After 1 to 1.5 hours both children were vomiting and subsequently "crashed" and could not be roused. Mom felt drunk with a headache and weird dreams that lasted all night. The father was not appreciably affected. Case 2: Montana, adult couple, 47 and 44, ate a "Puffball with a little orange on top" that was as big as a grapefruit. They also ate 2 lemon sized ones and two smaller ones cooked in foil on a campfire. An hour and a half later both were feeling weird, uncoordinated, and had difficulty walking. They were dizzy and having wild dreams about mushrooms and one vomited 2x, the other 3x. They drove from camp to get help and recovered at home. Case #3: Idaho, man, 60 cooked and ate mushroom, then 30 minutes later while driving home felt nauseated and began vomiting. He soon resumed driving but nearly went off the road. He tried to walk but couldn�t stand up and fell, spraining an ankle and getting bumps and bruises. Was not concerned that he thought he was dead and was talking to his dead father. Was found by a friend on the side of the road and at the hospital was hallucinating, twitching, drowsy, alert one minute and "out of it" the next. Case #4: Washington, couple ate "Puffballs" that when cut showed a yellow ring around the edge. The woman ate just a little and experienced nausea and was "fuzzy headed". The man felt lightheaded and threw up violently 12 hours after ingestion.

Amanita pantherina. Case 1: Idaho, five male and female adults, 42 to 74, picked what they had identified as "Shaggy Manes" but had a mixed collection of Amanita pantherina and a smaller blue-gray mushroom. Within three hours one male began acting agitated and appeared to be hallucinating, soon at least 4 were affected and those four were hospitalized. They all were vomiting, had altered states, muscle twitching, some were agitated, then sleeping or comatose. One patient had a very low blood count. Case 2: Montana, two females and a male, 47-55. Two ate 2-3 caps each and a third had a few slivers. Symptoms after 3 hours included a night of vomiting followed by dry heaves in the morning, lethargy, exhaustion and headache. One reported hallucinations and one could not remember anything about the previous night. Case 3: Colorado, female, 80, and daughter each at 2 mushrooms that they had identified as Matsutake, well cooked in butter. Two hours later they went to the hospital and both fell asleep with muscle spasms. Older woman, a chronic acetaminophen user, had unexplained pinpoint pupils and could not be roused. She slept for 36 hours. Daughter slept for 6-7 hours with dreams she could not describe. Case 4: Colorado, woman, 54, picked "After Rain Mushrooms" and ate 10 large specimens for lunch (two of which appeared to have been panthers). After 1 hour she began to feel funny, spacey and took a 20-minute drive with her young son after which she was dizzy, staggering and her visual background was revolving like a kaleidoscope. She vomited once and had her son call 911. She became comatose at the hospital and nurses reported muscle spasms. She regained consciousness after about 12 hours. Case 5: Colorado, couple, 61 and unknown age, collected, cooked and ate an unknown quantity. Symptom onset 2-2.5 hours. Male vomited was agitated, showed signs of altered mental status, becoming unconscious, muscles twitching. Female described as catatonic. She awoke after 12 hours, still shaky, and reported strange dreams. Case 6: Colorado, adult female fried and ate three. After about 1.5 hours she felt drunk, dizzy, light-headed, hands "nervous", trouble focusing. She stayed at home and fell into deep sleep for about 6 hours. Case 7: Colorado, male, 22 months, found with dried out mushroom in hand but no evidence of ingestion and no symptoms

Amanita phalloides: Case 1: Oregon, 7 individuals, male and female, 24-40, who speak little English were poisoned. They ate a moderate amount at one meal cooked in a casserole. Symptom onset was 8-12 hours. Some ate more than others and were sicker. They suffered diarrhea, dizziness, fever, intestinal cramps, nausea, sweating, vomiting and weakness. Their liver enzymes were severely compromised. One had liver shutdown and kidney involvement and recovered much slower than the others. Two individuals were treated with IV fluids and released. For five individuals treatment was with IV fluids, silymarin, hemodialysis. They all gradually recovered. Collectors thought they had picked a Volvariella species "just like in Korea". Case 2: California, 4 adults from one family ate an unspecified amount of mushrooms macroscopically and microscopically confirmed to be Amanita phalloides. Some or all 4 came to the hospital the day after they first ate the mushrooms and "were given some medicine" and sent home. One returned the following day and when the physician found that mushrooms had been consumed summoned the other three to return. Four days after the first meal of the mushrooms one woman, 70, was dead, one was in critical condition, one was improving and a fourth had been discharged. The woman who died ate the mushroom at 2 meals. Case 3: Washington man, 47, ate the cap and part of the rest of one mushroom at one meal for food. Symptom onset was 8-10 hours but he waited an additional 12-14 hours to get help. He had diarrhea, dizziness, high fever, intestinal cramps, nausea, sweating, vomiting and weakness. He was near coma when brought in. His liver and kidneys shut down completely. He later went into a coma and had a blood infection. He was placed on full life support and given hemodialysis. Four and a half months later he is still in a nursing home, still very weak and too ill to care for himself with his kidneys at about 80% function, liver still compromised, but blood infection nearly gone. He thought that he had eaten an Agaricus. The entire mushroom that he had was consumed and nothing was available to confirm the identification, but the symptoms and blood workup was consistent with Amanita phalloides. Case 4: Oregon, man, 35, ate about 2 caps for food, possibly in more than one meal. The onset of symptoms was about 8 hours. He suffered diarrhea, dizziness, severe headache, intestinal cramps, nausea, sweating and vomiting. Blood work showed kidney/liver damage and compromise. He was treated with fluids and silymarin and recovered quickly as he came in as soon as he suspected what he ate. He thought he had a very pale Amanita vaginata. It had been raining for several days and many of the specimens collected later identification had bleached nearly white. He said that he ate from the amanita vaginata group fairly often.

Amanita virosa. Case 1: (Sept 2003) Qu�bec, woman age 19 ate 1 bite raw, immediately realized that she had made a mistake and went to the hospital where she was treated 4x with activated charcoal at 4 hour intervals. She remained asymtomatic. Case 2: Qu�bec. Man, 61, ate an unknown amount of cooked mushrooms for lunch. The symptom onset was 12 hours and he suffered typical amatoxin symptoms. There are no details of his treatment. Death occurred Sept 2, 2004, 5 days after ingestion of the mushrooms.

Poisonings of Dogs

Amanita muscaria or Amanita pantherina. (Except where noted, all cases are reported from Colorado) Case 1: Dog of unknown age or breed showed agitation, staggering, panting, vomiting, muscle spasms, coma-like sleep lasting 12 hours with seizures and agitation continuing for a while after awakening. Coughing and lethargy lasted a day or two. Cases 2-4: two adult dogs and a puppy all three showing same symptoms as in previous case. Amanita pantherina was fruiting in unprecedented numbers in the area. All were treated and recovered. Case 5: dog, 90 pounds, acting drunk, agitated, then could no longer stand. Treated and recovered after about 10 hours. Cases 6-10: Four dogs in one week were brought in to the vet with staggering, twitching, salivating, collapse and coma. All recovered. Case 11. The week after cases 6-10, the owners of a dog, 12, found it dead due to respiratory failure but there is no evidence of earlier symptoms or of mushroom ingestion so cause here is unclear. Case 12: Older yellow lab was found agitated, uncoordinated, twitching and having difficulty breathing 1 hour after being let outside. The dog was euthanized about 2-3 hours later. Cases 13-23: An intern at an animal hospital reported that they had treated about 10 dogs with neurological symptoms that all sounded like ibotenic acid/muscimol poisonings. Case 24: Puppy began staggering, vomiting, twitching, and then collapsed but remained conscious. Vet administered IVs. Case 25: German Shepherd, 53 #, 1 hour post ingestion started vomiting, diarrhea, slow heart rate, drooling, walking in circles, staggering, breathing erratically. The vet also observed pancreatitis and administered atropine 2x for very low heart rate. For a while the dog appeared dead but was fully recovered after 36 hours. Case 26: Vizsla, apparently ate a piece of stem and 3-4 hours later started to whimper and whine and was stumbling. She soon was frantically moving about, stumbling into walls and drinking lots of water, loss of depth perception, dilated pupils, high heart rate and panting. She recovered overnight at the vets after treatment with valium, charcoal, heavy sedation and an overnight IV. Case 27: Michigan, dog, 2, ate about 1 teaspoon of amanita muscaria and in 5-6 hours started to salivate, and was dizzy, sweating, disoriented, weak and unable to stand or hold his head up. Heart beat fast but steady, breathing labored. Vet administered Valium and took other unidentified measures. The dog soon stopped being restless, became limp and then slept for several hours and awoke weak. Next day the dog was recovered but extremely thirsty.

If only all THESE people had more "basic information" eh? Then they'd be just fine, eating "Amanitas"

VM

Edited February 8, 2008 by Vertmorpheus

[husk]

i don't know Vert that sounds like a fair write off to me there.

those 'cases' haven't even sufficient evidence to claim that the mushrooms in question were even muscarias, that's what we're referring to here, right? half of them could have been discoloured puffballs, one even says a 'smaller blue-gray mushroom' was in the batch they ate. one is referring to phalliodes, another uncooked possible muscaria, some pantherinas... really.

all this proves is yr likely to poison yrself if you fail to take the proper precautions or id the fungi properly.

those statements are exactly the sort of unfound, useless information that is akin to the drug propaganda we talk of with such contempt here on a regular basis when used as evidence to discredit a substance.

the fact that they can be poisonous applies to anything spoken of on this forum. everything can harm or hurt you in the right, read:wrong, doses. thats not reason enough to go and discredit it all. i wouldn't suggest psilos as safe to anyone either, i know of blackout cases and prolonged sickness in regards to these, especialy meanies(!), i would suggest caution with any found fungi or even past due supermarket stock, but not to the point of inducing mycophobia.

if you don't use a microscope with other types of fungus why are you so affraid of muscarias? they are infinitely easier to id then most! how can you be sure of yr other mushrooms, or the blotters you've known of, were they laid in front of a verifiable source?

anyway, everyone is going to have their own take on it and if any info is to be taken with a grain of salt, or cap of amanita muscaria(?) it will be that from the people who have never tried it.

please note i have no undying love for amanitas just unbiased information is all. i am facsinated with the mythology and there awesome apperance/presence.

there are native amanitas, not sure of the genus though.

muscarias and associates are slightly invasive to eucs and beech also, apparently, but not native, but they would have been here longer than most of us!

p.s. Vert, no offense intended, just a lively discussion is all.

peace x

Edited February 8, 2008 by husk

[Vertmorpheus]

nup no offense, lively rocks... just dont make me out to be a bit of a nong for daring to point out that, as an undifferentiated genus, Amanitas are in fact poisonous. You cant pull shreds off what I posted about em being so, and then point out that "they are dangerous yes but no more so than some other things". Am I making reasonable enough, personally truthful posts, or am I making dangerous blanket statements on a well read and very popular online drug info resource? I know which approach needs more in the way of cautioning... and, FTR, I never said meanies were safe. I said they had been, in the past, entirely fine with my system and standards. I'd neve say they were entirely safe, or not dangerous at all, which is why I took exception to the statements mutant made. That, and the implied suggestion winky face that eating fungi x is somehow more "worthy" especially to "some people" and that "especially these people" might benefit from a closer look. WTF? I eat what I want to eat, I don't eat things on principle. Isnt that half of what this "community" is about, making your own choice?

all I read was " amanitas arent dangerous just hard to work with". Mutant doesnt distinguish as to species, why should I? They are, relatively speaking, dangerous. Fuck about with the semantics of "dangerous" or "hard" all you want, theyre not particularly safe things to go munching on, on the relative scale of commonly consumed plant intoxicants you are likely to find growing in your backyard. Likewise, despite being a big fan and long time lover, I can say that Brugmansia is dangerous. Of COURSE it depends on the numbers.. but the short answer is, its FUCKING DANGEROUS STUFF. Only a complete fool would put them in the same "safety category" as say ganja, or anyone of an umber of things that its exceedingly difficult to kill yourself with. I never made any claims of factuality regarding links n quotes, but somehow I might just go with what is consensus among qualified practicing mycologists and medical professionals. Yes, people eat em and have a great time, feel great and have long happy lives. Some dont. Same can be said of driving too fast, jumping off cliffs or eating mystery plants. anyrate, my own personal belief is that the positive outcome as stated in various trip reports etc, simply doesnt sound worth it for the level of discomfort and possible risk they pose. You wanna eat em, fine. Send me a postcard. I won't be, and the fact that the genus is generally riddled with nasty chems and properties and completely positive ID is a bit iffy is a major part of that.

Remember, this is in the context of "why would I not eat one myself". Answer - because I've raed too much dodgy shit, and not enough entirely clear and concise shit... and as I said, vague and iffy suits some of us just fine, others, not so much. But I can't find anyone iwlling to say "eat x number of caps, dried for x days, and youll be entirely fine give or take the odd outside chance of being specifically allergic to them or just freaking out as usual".

This reminds me of a terry pratchett character, who having worked out many drugs are chemicals, decides all chems are therefor drugs and takes to doing hits of flea powder, battery acid, drain cleaner.

But to say that "Moreover, amanitas not only do they have NO hangover, but on the contrary the bring out a pleasant afterglow tha day/days after when they're not mixed with something else, like alcohol f.e. and finally that they're not really dangerous, just very hard to work with, as a material. " without specifying species (yes, all us big people that read a lot KNOW he probably means muscarias, but not all readers of this UNBIASED info are as well informed, winky face). And what could be less biased than a simple blanket statement that anyone ever ingesting any mushroom from this genus will always feel loved up and happy the next day... call me out on mine by all means, but im not greedy.... you can share it around with others too

They are dangerous. To say that theyre not because many other things are as well, is a bit foolhardy. And to say that "

Do you have any facts, or it's only what you have heard of amanitas, being liver-toxic. I believe so too, I have heard some stuff like this, but never a really good source. It might be even more dangerous for casual alcohol drinkers, but I don't believe it's so toxic to prevent you from having a couple of experiences. And I am quite sure it's less toxic than alcohol for the liver... or not??" ... well... all I could ever do in response to that is post sources of information as they popped out of a websearch... those in the "know" reckon theyre sometimes pretty fuckin dangerous, and not very good for your liver (there has to a reason why those in the know but outside of the industry as it were still often take milk thistle etc with their Agarics).

There was also the implied suggestion (from what I made of it anyway) that you must be somehow ignorant to not try eating things that many people regard as being too dangerous...sorry... a lot of hard work ;)... or that anything is worth a go, once or twice... well maybe it is, or maybe it isnt... but if its a matter of my view of "just dont bother unless you mind the risks involved" or "ignore all health warnings, eat any "amanita" you find, youll be right".. I know which I'd rather see the general population put into practice.

Its not about word games, its about "amanitas are not dangerous". They are. On a relative scale, its a lot easier to die from them, then it is from say, cubes. Or Shittakes. Or Wild dagga. Whats the problem? Or would you happily feed a "regular normal educated" dose of "amanita" to say, your Mum? Your little bother? Cos, yknnow, they should be fine... from what I can work out on erowid...that is... pardon me for being pro-life, and erring on the side of caution when it comes to giving advice. On a scale of "plants people often consume"... I believe (based on the information available to me, viewed thru my own personal filter of priorities and precautions) that they are slightly higher on the list than say... most medicinal herbs, or carrots. Even on a scale of drugs... they have innherent to them the problems of being of unknown and unreliable potency which would be less of a problem if the upper limit of intoxication wasnt death.

Mushrooms of the genus Amanita are generally regarded as poisonous. Or too poisonous to bother with when theres a thousand other things ytou could be playing with. I never wrote em off for anyone else, or as a genus, or anything like that (once again, its the all or nothing SAB fairy at work here... I dont go to the beach so i really dont give a shit about lines in the sand, sorry to say) I was simply responding to someone asking what Id heard about em, from where, my views on em, etc. Isnt that what I did?

Once again, all this is much simplified when you dont have to worry about the welfare of others, or are less concerned about your own welfare... if, on your own personal balance of pros n cons, theyre for you, go for it. good on ya. have a ball. in fact, have two. But simply because others are willing to do something, doesnt mean its the greatest idea on earth. And because you choose NOT to do something, and go on to explain your reasons for it, doesnt mean theres anything wrong with you either. I try to limit the chances of dying in the next couple days, or even getting very very sick and being useless around the house etc... and id never live with myself in eternity if i adopted a "shell be right, its all just a big anti drug conspiracy goiing on!" and died, leaving my gorgeous daughter and equally gorgeous other half to deal with the world on their own. I love plants, and drugs too, to put it bluntly. But if its jail or death, or a long happy life watching my own lil mushroom making her way in the big wide world... I know which I choose.

But, yknow, pardon me... how terrible fuddy duddy of me to dare to remind people that these are really poisonous, on occasion. Blatantly untrue now that I come to think of it! ffs

Ignore my POV, stick to the word games of "dangerous" vs "occasionally rewarding but might make you very very sick or possibly kill you and some of the most lethal fungii ever found belong to this tribe and that there are some vague lookalikes and subspecies of the preferred species that it wouldnt be too hard to ingest thanks to poor ID, which is one of the great deciding factors on whether a shroom does or doesnt become immensely popular and reliable to pick"

VM

Edited February 8, 2008 by Vertmorpheus