For Ballzac - My Mystical Brug Experience

[indigo264nm]

I thought I only had the draft but I found the final copy that I posted onto the erowid experience vaults...

So here it is:

Intro:

This has not been my first time experimenting with plants containing tropane alkaloids, but I will say that this was definitely my most notable experience with this type of plant which happens to be my favourite out of the tropane plants.

I am an 18 year old male, 180cm tall and 59kg. Besides from Valium withdrawals I have been in pretty good shape. I am a regular drinker and moderate cigarette smoker. I also take a multivitamin in the morning, and 10-20mg of d-amphetamine sulfate per day for AD\HD.

I have experimented with many different substances over the years; I have smoked cannabis for 5 years and have recently cut down on my intake. I have also dabbled with speed, E, ice, ketamine, various pharmaceuticals, alcohol and my favourites always being the trypatmines (LSD, Mushrooms and DMT). Some other entheogens I have taken besides from the tryptamines above are HBWR, Mescaline (San Pedro), Salvia Divinorum and mild dabblings with Datura's and Brugmansia.

A few nights previous to this encounter I prepared the herbs roughly in the same manner with the same quantities except resulting in little activity. Perhaps the flower used this time was more potent than the last attempt and the sedatives taken on that night had a role to play in the limited activity.

It should be noted that my physical and mental state included withdrawals from taking diazepam in the evenings for 3 months or so and then stopping. The prompt for trying the dream mix once again was knowing that the last time I withdrew from diazepam, I got horrible and vivid nightmares which I have never experienced that intensely before. I could feel myself waking up frequently during the evenings, despite taking 50mg of Seroquel to sedate me. I decided I wanted to experience some intense and hopefully prophetic dreams, but things ended up very differently indeed.

This experience was void of any sedative medication, although some wine was consumed earlier in the evening and 10mg of d-amphetamine sulfate in the afternoon.

Growing Gains Respect:

I have been raising this Brugmansia since it was only a young cutting and this has been the first flowering. I place an important emphasis on raising these types of plants with great care and respect. An experience smoking Brugmansia leaf a combined with cannabis a couple of years ago was quite powerful, but served as a warning sign. It wasn’t ready to except me. That experience by memory wasn’t scary – more just like a sudden vision flashing with vicious intensity, and having a dominate orange\red colour scheme in a jungle at night, illuminated by a large fire burning in the middle of a gathering… I saw a tribal following, with a Lady on a throne. They appeared to be preparing for war, so I assumed she was presenting herself to me as a fast and vicious goddess of the jungle. I left the foliage on the young tree and raised it with care.

Dose:

T:05- hrs = 10mg of D-amphetamine Sulfate (swallowed)

T:04- hrs = Glass of wine

T:03.5+ hrs = Glass of wine

T:02+ hrs = Glass of wine

T:01+ hrs = Glass of wine

T:00+ hrs = 1\3rd of a B. candida flower & 15 C. zacatechichi leaves (liquid infusion swollowed)

T:0.5+ hrs = 1\3rd of B. candida flower & 10 C. zacatechichi (smoked)

Preparation:

The basic ingredient ratios for the brew were about 1\3rd of a Brugmansia candida flower combined with roughly 15 leaves of a Calea zacatechichi plant – both ingredients chopped finely. A pot with roughly 500mL was brought to a boil and the two herbs were added, and left to boil for another 20-30 minutes with two peppermint and one camomile tea bags for flavouring. Another 1\3rd of the Brugmansia flower was rolled into a joint with about 5-10 chopped Calea leaves. It was sweetened to taste; ice cubes were added until lukewarm and it was all strained.

After consumption of the tea I waited and relaxed for about 20 minutes before going and smoking the rest of the mixture in small joint.

Not long after that did I start to experience the first telltale tropane effect for me, being a strange taste in my mouth that lasts for at least 24 hours after ingestion. The second symptom was starting to lose co-ordination and depth perception, with my mucous membranes drying up. I felt sick, like my stomach didn’t want water, despite how dry my mouth felt. I decided it was time to say goodnight to my family and depart. I got into my bed, put some gentle music on (Boards of Canada) and tried to get some sleep.

It was about 10:30pm at this point.

Slowly and slowly did I get sucked into the all familiar feeling that insomniacs experience - not asleep but neither awake, yet trailing off on distant thought patterns. This continued on as my delirium began to grow over the hours. I felt that I also gained a profound increase in night vision ability. I had to turn the light on a couple of times as I was seeing ants carrying food from my window to the door, or spiders on the window above me. Obviously the Brugmansia was aware of my phobia for insects, but luckily I have worked on these phobias with the assistance of LSD and nature, and was able to tell myself that those weren’t real. I believe this was the first test for me.

It would have been perhaps 2am at a guess, when I felt reality and the environment around me dissolve, and suddenly I was at rest. (Note: I believed I turned the light off at this stage).

I cannot say all of what happened during this time but I vaguely recall having some vivid dreams until I was suddenly awoken, yet still in a heavy trance. A young lady that I didn’t recognise had turned the light on. She felt so familiar, but I gathered that I was also very heavily affected and didn’t remember why she had to stay at my place. Even her being a close friend was a possibility in my mind. She asked where she could sleep, so I told her of a fold out lounge downstairs or a mattress under my brother’s bed. She left for a few minutes and returned saying she didn’t want to wake the family. She opted to sleep on my double mattress with me. There were no sexual or intimate gestures involved other then when she placed a hand gently on the side of mine, without even making eye contact. Her hand appeared most unusual but I was in no state of mind to absorb and process such detail. I turned the light off and she appeared to sleep despite me knowing that she was always awake. She moved down a bit in position so we were not facing head to head with each other. The moon light coming through the window seemed to cast a black and white spell on everything. I believe the girl seemed to have very white skin under the moon, and her clothes were very basic yet still modern – the colours were black with parts of blue in different places. I decided to let her rest and try to get further dreams which took a while of me tossing and turning. I also believe that showing purity of heart that remained untainted by sexual urges (she was beautiful) was the second test.

The next stage was the most blurry. I felt I was constantly going in and out of consciousness into delirious encounters involving talking to friends. Each time I stopped talking to one them I realised that I firmly could tell myself that this was all an effect of the drug and they weren’t real. I knew that if I touched them they would disappear. Whenever this realisation occurred, my environment dissolved again, bringing me back to my normal room, with a still unknown girl lying very still next to me. I apologised for rambling delirious rubbish and explained I was heavily under the influence of a substance. What made talking to her feel real was the fact that I had easily recognised that when communicating I was talking using my chest, throat and mouth to propel words, whilst the communications with my friends whilst dreaming felt as if there was literally myself and another person discussing something inside my own brain and perception. I discovered this whilst waking up mid-sentence from a dream and hearing\feeling my voice propel the second part of the sentence, but not the first part.

This type of test continued in various ways or forms until perhaps 5:30am - including the infamous cigarette vanishing from hand effect A LOT of times. Every time this happened I thought ‘I don’t smoke in my own room – where did my cigarette go? – I ran out of cigarettes this afternoon! – This is not real!’

I continued reinforcing to myself that these were just illusions from the Brugmansia and my head is not completely lost.

I felt like the tests had all finished for now (instead of just random mind-fucking encounters with friends that I had to establish as not real each time) and although I tried to ask her name, the words would not properly form and she gave no answer. I rolled over for a little bit, and when I looked back the face seemed to be covered in a blue facial moisturising mask thingy instead. She smiled and looked away embarrassed, so I figured she thought I wasn’t going to wake up for a while and she was bored. Later reading into her various appearances displayed to me, she liked to use symbols to express that she can be fearless, loving, beautiful, ugly, mysterious and human all at once.

I said goodnight for the last time and fell asleep.

I woke up half an hour. I could hear my father’s alarm for work ringing. It was approximately 6:45am and the girl had gone from my room, yet I could see the arrangement of the covers indicating that a second person had indeed slept in the bed. I looked around with little success, felt a bit more sober and back to reality and just figured she had to work and needed a place to crash for that reason.

I had a shower, and I saw in the bathroom some strong blue moisturising stuff that had been used but placed in a different position.

All these things told me that a girl had slept in my bed last night. It confused me. I got tested by Brugmansia 2 more times by answering mobile calls from people I knew. Both times I was actually not carrying my mobile or a phone of any description, and quickly became aware of that trick. Though when my friend Josh ‘called’ I asked about a girl staying at mine, and he told me that when he drove past my house very late a girl was at my front door and he talked to her. Josh broke up before I could ask who she was, and I realised then I was without my phone and Josh would not call at 7am anyway. I was still obviously affected to some degree but could compose myself at least. I was still determined to find out who this girl was, asking friends and telling them briefly of my story… convinced utterly that she was not a hallucination, as all my communication with her seemed quite real as opposed to the dream hallucinations. When she touched me, I could actually feel her whereas the other hallucinations seemed to be like projections sent from my own brain and had no physical basis in my own dream world.

It has been about T: 24+ hours since I consumed the mixture. My pupils are still dilated and I feel much more in tune with natural surroundings (understood a conversation between birds, and being able to listen to my plants). Earlier this afternoon I asked my mother if she saw the person that stayed over last night. I explained I was half asleep and told her to sleep on the sofa bed downstairs. My mother told me that at 3am she was sleeping on the fold out herself (“I didn’t want to wake your family.”)

My mother was also a little spooked by the concept, as all the doors were locked yet she remembers a light being on in my room around 3am whereas I remember turning it off, sleeping and getting woken up with the light on. I told her it could have been a crazy dream from the dream mixture I prepared; despite neither of us being fully convinced that it was just a dream. It took me a little bit to sink in. My only basis of reality during that whole experience was centred on coming back to my bed after many of my confusing dreams that I felt forced to prove my strength of mind in.

I quickly realised that SHE was the Brugmansia spirit manifesting as a beautiful young woman to me, except actively testing me to earn her respect by proving myself to her. Honestly everything else happened as it would in reality whilst I was awake and she was lying next to me. These things included letting the cat out of my room, turning the lights off or going to the toilet and such, returning to find her still there unlike with any of the other hallucinations I saw of people I knew. It is in these situations that I believe Calea gave me assitance by improving the clarity and cognitive functions during dream states.

I understand now that she has accepted me as her pupil if I so wished to take that road, but I realise how extremely powerful she is. I feel some strong bond with her, yet I do not know for certain whether I shall return for more lessons. I cannot stress enough how much I am amazed at her caring and protective side – I felt so safe around her without even contemplating that I was lying next to a powerful plant spirit. It was not what I expected, that is for certain… even if nothing else is certain under the spell of this sly and mysterious entity.

Despite how I am now aware that she was not an ordinary human girl, here is how utterly convinced she had me before it clicked:

"Interesting.. very interesting.

I was in a state of mild-delirium last night\this morning, induced by brug flower (and some calea leaves) to promote lucid dreaming. With my extremely broken sleep at present, and in my state of talking to people who weren't there, by memory I would say that the physical symptoms aren't worth it in hindsite, but I think I conducted it pretty well. Kinda teaches you how fucked up reality is, (like when you have the flu).

Anyway, what made this particularly interesting (besides from cigarettes and stuff vanishing from my hands) was the fact that a girl\lady whom I don't know and didn't talk to (by memory) somehow made it into my bed, and I didn't leave my room at all. I don't know what time it was, who it was, and I'm beginning to think that this person might not actually be real (or perhaps she got freaked out by half sentances spoken outloud to people I was seeing in my dreams).

Can anybody shed some light on this on this person, it was really strange.

Edit: It's driving me insane, I need to find out if this person was real or not as I recall conversing with several different friends who weren't there. Fuck, like I only got a phone call off shindler about a bit over an hour ago. As soon as I 'got off the phone' I realised that didn't have a phone in that room or in my possession. Craaaazy shit.

My eyes are supposed to take about 24hrs before vision will come back properly (as everything is more blurred from dilated pupils).Well my night ended up anything but boring, AND I was in my own room by myself the whole night."

--- Journal Entry - 18th of Jan 2006 - 7:01am

Be careful and take great care with her. She'll crush you if you cross her.

Love and light,

Chris.

[apothecary]

Easily the best Brugmansia trip report I have ever read.

Thankyou.

Your innocence seems to have earnt you the respect of the Temptress. When she and I first met all I could feel was her power through my body, and that's the way the relationship has stayed (especially as I seem to have become more proficient at mixing different tropanic plants) since then.

Even just threshhold effects from smoking one of my mixes will leave me feeling so electric and alive, like I could run a mile and then star in a four hour porno or something.

I envy your experience in that regard

[darkstar]

What a read, I love it !

I think you may have met yourself, the real test will be if she appears again in future experiences.

respect

Edited February 16, 2006 by darkstar

[ballzac]

I've been interested in this and other tropanes for a while now. I feel, like you, that these plants require a lot of respect, and am not going to use them entheogenically until I have grown them to maturity from seed.

It's great to see such a lucid trip report. The whole idea of tropanes kinda scares me, not because you can die from them, but because it can become difficult for people to seperate reality from delerium, but this is of course what also intrigues me.

It's a very common thing from the reports I've read, for a 'person' - among all the comings and goings of imaginary people - to remain for the whole trip and be indistinguishable from reality.

Anyway, thanks for posting the report. It's often hard to judge the validity of reports on erowid, but I know when I read the report of a member here that it's the real deal.

[SikkimRex]

Indeed, a hell of a report. In fact, after reading it I had an afternoon nap (lucky student I am!), and then dreamt about a woman similar to the lady you discussed! Suggestion, eh?

It is interesting this thing of other people appearing. As a kid, I saw a young girl (but older than me) by my side the whole time I was under anaesthetic in hospital, and she was just talking to me. I was 5 at the time.

And I have been reading about Lilly and his "guardians" - comforting consciousnesses around him during dangerously far out experiences.Joe Simpson discusses this in "touching the void", when he feels like someone is looking out for him while he is delirious. Mountaineers also frequently get this feeling at high altitudes. I read somewhere (i really wish I knew where though!) in the psychedelic literature that an evolutionary argument for hallucinations is as a way to "shut out" the real world, the reality of which would otherwise be too much for the organism to cope with. Like a deliberate, temorary insanity.

My scientific side says that it is your brain creating a third person as a defence mechanism. But in my heart I really would like it to be an independant consciousness - and I hope you meet this lady again (but perhaps any man would say this - a mysterious beautiful woman with your interests at heart!). She sounds great!

[ballzac]

My scientific side says that it is your brain creating a third person as a defence mechanism. But in my heart I really would like it to be an independant consciousness

Do the two ideas have to be mutually exclusive? I too think in very scientific terms most of the time, but it doesn't that I can't believe an entity created by my own mind is conscious in its own right. We are all just points of consciousness experiencing arising phenomena...

[apothecary]

Do the two ideas have to be mutually exclusive? I too think in very scientific terms most of the time, but it doesn't that I can't believe an entity created by my own mind is conscious in its own right. We are all just points of consciousness experiencing arising phenomena...

Well said.

I've done some of my own exploration into the person phenomena while on tropanes, I made a post a while ago asking how come something that essentially blocks memory neurotransmitters (acetylcholine) can bring visual imagery of people way back in your life into the trip.

I think that is a completely different phenomena from the Temptress herself though. They may manifest similarly, but I've found the people to be lacking the power, insight and jealousy/protectiveness of the Temptress.

I'm not sure I agree about the defence mechanism thing Rex, I mean I agree in some of the scenarios you mention but under the influence of tropanes the Lady can arrive before you and proceed to wreak havoc on your body and mind. Hardly a defence mechanism in this case

So what is it then? I dunno...but it's a very interesting topic for discussion :D

EDIT: Just as an aside, for people experimenting with this group of chemicals in general, high choline foods help to restore your eyesight to normal quicker than without. Choline supplements may help in this regard even better but I haven't got personal experience with it yet.

I recently read for best choline -> acetylcholine metabolisation, vitamin B5 is required, so I'm guessing doing that combo directly after the trip and such would greatly reduce the eyesight issue.

Edited February 16, 2006 by apothecary

[Benzito]

Thankyou for this report NC. It is insightful and brutally honest.

[wandjina]

wow Chris!!! Your report had me enthralled from start to finish....what a wonderful read, thankyou so much.

I ate brug flowers once in highschool, there is a massive mature tree near my childhood home. The main effects, as far as I can remember, were dilated pupils and very sore throat. Minimal psychic effects. The sore throat was partciularly uncomfortable, and for this reason i lost interest.

I agree with apo, yours is the best report i've ever read on this plant...I would consider trying it again solely on the basis of this beautiful and eloquent account.

Thankyou

[prier]

It's really good just to read a neutral report about tropane containing plats. Most of what I've read regarding people's experiences with these plants is really negative and 'don't do it' type stuff.

As it's on of the great shamanic plants (in my eyes anyway) I've waned to try it for some time, yet don't feel ready. I got my first brug plant about two weeks ago so maybe in a few years once it's matured I'll have an experience with tropanes too.

Oh, and great report really well written and legnthy too which is how a report should be.

[ballzac]

Most of what I've read regarding people's experiences with these plants is really negative and 'don't do it' type stuff.

It seems to be mainly A. belladonna reports that are the most negative. I don't know if this reflects the respective effects of the various tropanes. I know belladonna is mainly atropine, whereas henbane is mainly hyoscyamine, I don't know about brug though, I think maybe it's hyoscyamine mainly as well.

[apothecary]

I wouldn't go so far as that ballzac, all the Solanaceous tropanic plants have plenty of negative reports attributed to them, and not always from lack of respect for the plants.

[indigo264nm]

My scientific side says that it is your brain creating a third person as a defence mechanism. But in my heart I really would like it to be an independant consciousness - and I hope you meet this lady again (but perhaps any man would say this - a mysterious beautiful woman with your interests at heart!). She sounds great!

It would make sense in alot of respects, but I didn't feel as if she was protecting me or she had my interests at heart. She was just there. I wasn't scared at any point, nor did I feel threatened because I knew my intentions were innocent and trusted it and also myself not to lose control (even though I wasn't expecting anything other than vivid dreams to begin with). Really I felt that it was Brugmansia manifesting itself to me, to try and mess with my head even more, because I could already see through the unreality around me by remembering I was under the influence. I honestly felt like everything I experienced that night was a test to see how I could handle the trickery.

She also changed from beautiful to ugly, and then downright strange in appearance whilst maintaining the same basic shape and physical attributes. Why would I create such things??? What is the strange and a little too complicated idea of getting a 'phone call from a friend' in the morning which tried to trick me into thinking further that there was a girl outside my house around the same time one ended up in my room??? Why would my mind try and tell me that there was somebody there but my mind also make this conversation to convince me, and then make then break up before he would tell me who she actually was??? Her continued presence and little signs to try and fool me into thinking a person actually stayed in my room seems way more complicated than most stories of tropane delerium found on erowid... though I am also willing to accept that my mind is more complicated than most (for better in some ways - but most of the time for worse).

To sum up what I'm trying to say - The whole reason I would experiment with entheogens is because science can explain alot of things, but with explaining alot of things comes creating more things that can't be explained. I am searching for answers that science simply can't explain, and I think never will be able to. There comes to a point when we are becoming hindered by a scientific reason to justify everything we come across. Modern psychology is based purely on theoreticals, with the only thing truly solid scientifically being behaviourism - which is just way too simple. Beyond that there is nothing concrete that can be truly proven from any of the perspectives that developed in psychology afterwards, as ultimately how can you prove what happens inside a mind if you can't even explain what a mind is in the first place???

Even biologically, you can say that serotonin levels seem to have a direct impact on mood but ultimately you can't explain why it has a direct impact on moods... only that it does.

Science just proves the physical (or otherwise creates a hypothesis using a train of logic that can't be broken at that point of time), but our perception isn't physically based and we only percieve things around us in relation to our own minds. Whats the point trying to find a truth in an existance that can never be true. Do you think in 100 years time that we will be using the same scientific laws and reasons that we do today???

...not trying to be critical of you by any means (I just got stuck in a rant ), as I understand you weren't criticising my experience. Just really I think you should try going with your heart, because maybe your brain is using science as a defence mechanism . You do raise some very thoughtful points though, which is obvious otherwise I wouldn't have tried to disprove them hehe.

To everybody else, thanks for all your replies. I was considering posting it ever since it happened but didn't know whether I should for some reason. I'm glad you all enjoyed reading it, and that it showed a different side to the plant not commonly heard about to others... I will say that if you intend on experimenting, be very careful and start extremely small and don't think whether or not you will get such shamanic effects is dose related and up it on that basis. The exact same dose 3 nights before did not affect me at all beside from physical - yet this time from a different flower managed to throw me in further than I imagined possible from such an ammount.

[indigo264nm]

After thinking about what I just wrote, does anybody else notice that the more answers you find - the more questions you have??? To the extent that from many experiences questioning ego and reality, you begin to realise that the answers are infinite, and ultimately then realise that there will never be anything concrete to explain anything we experience other than what we create for ourselves???

I think our system of logic and reason is just what we use to fill time in otherwise meaningless lives.

...but then that concept is just a system of logic and reason.

God my brain is on overdrive tonight, looks like I won't be sleeping much.

[ballzac]

I wouldn't go so far as that ballzac, all the Solanaceous tropanic plants have plenty of negative reports attributed to them, and not always from lack of respect for the plants.

Of course. They're the most deadly and hardcore hallucinogens on earth

[SikkimRex]

Hey Neurotichaosis, it's all good - this is just healthy discussion - so I am not slightly annoyed by your criticality (if that is a word). But it's interesting that you felt you needed to defend yourself from my comment. I don't doubt the authenticity of your experience, and agree with Descartes, Hume, Berkley etc, that we can only ever really trust the internal - our senses cant be trusted - and that the world relies upon them to confirm its existence. So if those senses are distorted, then we are experienceing a different world as much as we are experiencing the real one.

In a way, I think that Balzac's reply gets to the most lateral interpretation of the scientific angle - that we might invent entities in our minds, but that does'nt mean that they are not nescessarily sentient in their own right. Like we might create viruses - that don't know they were invented (like the recent movie ISLAND). After one startling session with acacia/burnt plastic , I became convinced that WE are THEIR experiment in artificial intellegence - their experiement from the digital into the physical, the flexhy. And OUR emotions were THEIR attempt to be illogical. Luckily this idea passed before I had a chance to tell it to too many people.

Hell, you may be right about science being my defense meachanism - it's been pretty effective for western society to drive itself firmly into dry dullness. In fact, in Amsterdam earlier this year, I was able to take some mushies legally (viva NL! Last bastion of sanity!). ANd what interested me is that I messed up the dose and my partner and I ended up unable to move (luckily we had rented an apartment for just such experimentation), hallucinating in a way that I had thought only the lucky sixties people did - it did'nt matter if our eyes were open or closed.

ANYWAY, the hallucinations were aztecy, etc, as per many descriptions out there. But I was presented with 2 opportunities, both of which I recoiled from for fear of going insane. One was that I suddenly became able to stretch my mouth strangely, and make these weird sounds, but it was also a dance of elbows, ankles and knees, and chins. I performed it once with my girlfriend, and then she answered me with it (this strange synesthesic language) - and it so freaked me, I did'nt do it again that night, even though I felt this compulsion to. The other opportunity was this aggregation in the pattern that formed itself into a biologcal vehicle that was just "idling" - waiting for me to pop into it and travel somewhere. I called it the thrashing machine (it's actually my dwg for my avatar).

Both of these opportunities were presented and both I refused, because I could not accept them in my current mindset. But, for me, that was the clearest such a presentation has been, and that itself indicates that I am getting closer to be able to take such opportunities). I am learning, what can I say. But for me too, entheogens are about connecting with something else, something other than this shallow consesus reality. I will get there.

Finally, I suppose that I still have a lot of fear - I am in my late thirties, and I only just survived the eighties. I am the last of 5 friends who took things together - drugs took them all (admittedly, not psychedelics). This kept me on the straight and narrow for 10 years. I have also had to help admit two people to mental institutions after severe psychotic episodes on psychedlics. Both have never come back (bar deinstitutionalisation). Sure they were predisposed, but who is to say that I'm not? Hey, I've been on anti-depressants!

If science is a refuge for me, its value is as another filter of understanding. I do not think neurochemistry is separate from the spiritual. I dont think that our subjective experience is devalued by beleiving in science - it's just that it isnt the domain OF science. our society values science more than art, when both are accurate means (when well done!) of representing different things. Thats why I like Lilly. He valued both the subjective and the objective, and crossed them - being subjective about the objective, objective about the subjective.

I was'nt meaning to belittle your experience at all - I think it was amazing. I must be more careful about my words. Rather, I was thinking about how the model of science might interpret it, because you were so articulate about the experience itself - it needed no further interpretation!

Hell, yeah, it's a rave, but I am at home on a Friday night! SAB is where iz at... and it will be less that 10K.

[Rev]

My scientific side says

maybe you mean skeptic

science is a tool that says show me how it works, make it repeatable.

skepticism on the other hand is an approach

the two work well together but are not the same

for example

though a person with world views based on notions not formed by empirical evidence can be skeptical they will prob eventually settle on scientic method as one of the firmer foundations for decision making

likewise a scientist must manage the balance between skepticism and fighting of the old ways of thinking and dogma, and also of the innumerable crackpot new ideas that get launched without a solid basis.

I love trip reports.

I like it when people tell their stories as honestly as possible

saying this is what happenned and what i experienced

regardless of whether it made sense or causes offence

because in perspective the world created to explaim he facets of the mind by psychologists is as much historical conjecture as what a tripper perceives.

After one startling session with acacia/burnt plastic , I became convinced that WE are THEIR experiment in artificial intellegence - their experiement from the digital into the physical, the flexhy.

one of my more recent wild conjectures is that these simulations, our world being one of a seemingly infinite permutations. Are designed primarily as breeder reactors to birth new entities - the word made flesh

a mechanisms by which a simulation pod running our world egenerates many billions of lives. In our lives we live and learn and grow and come to realisations, grow and eventually die.

of these simms, which are us, a miniscule percentage 'strike' a state of embyronic maturity that is wat the system exists for

and when we 'die' the consiousness doenst get deleted it is extracted to outside the system where it joinds the community running the simms as an infant but able memebr of an immortal ie non biological dimension

the flesh made word

why? because i figured if you were an immortal race would you tolerate admitting any old entity to your ranks? i wouldnt. Id put germinants through rigorous screening to see if they have the right stuff to be suitable, both in terms of intelligence and menatl flexibility but also in the finer traits of empathy, self discipline and kindness

Edited February 17, 2006 by Rev

[indigo264nm]

Hey Neurotichaosis, it's all good - this is just healthy discussion - so I am not slightly annoyed by your criticality (if that is a word). But it's interesting that you felt you needed to defend yourself from my comment.

Hahaha, nah I just was bored on a friday night and have decided to stop drinking after a recent bender. Suddenly I notice my brain racing at a thousand miles an hour again and remember that this has been what I've been trying to shut down, as often the negative thoughts and behaviours (I struggle with some things that isn't all that common for males) start consuming everything - so instead I decided to channel this energy into a rant or rave... I don't get many oppotunities to use my intellect since I dropped out of school and started horticulture hehe.

Basically I was just debating for the sake of it. As real as this experience was to me, I am willing to accept that everything I experience isn't even real and all my beliefs are just a way of keeping me entertained throughout my existance instead of resorting to mindless hedonism and a nihilistic approach to life.

I did however succeed in turning this into a true 'Spirituality & Philosophy' discussion.