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Glaukus

Any Bible scholars around?

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Or at least anyone with a decent amount of knowledge about the creation myths, Adam and Eve myths etc?

I was raised as a Catholic and I need to work on eliminating a lot of extremely deep seated programming from my childhood. I had a few interesting "revelations" and there was a lot of info downloaded regarding the Genesis myths, garden of Eden stories, the "fall" and the nature of the demiurge.

I'd love to chat about some of this with someone sometime. Still really trying to form a reasonably coherent line of thought about all of this.

But I feel I'm getting closer to finding the root program that causes a lot of my dysfunctional behaviour.

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Hi there :)

 

Can I recommend Alan Watts. I’ve been reading and listening to him for years. His specialty was translating the Eastern “religions” (philosophies) to the West, but he was a brilliant theologian and talked about all religion..

 

 

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Thanks, I'm very familiar with Alan Watts.

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I'm the furthest thing from a Bible scholar.

 

Just for curiosity sake, are you looking to the Bible for solutions?

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In any case I recommend this book.

I'm only new, but so far I think Spirit is easier to navigate than the word.

 

Jesus Through Middle Eastern Eyes: Cultural Studies in the Gospels https://g.co/kgs/oA4rwF

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Like toby, i'm interested in problem here as well - are you trying to improve biblical exegesis or remove some type of 'programming' altogether?

 

Quote

I'm only new, but so far I think Spirit is easier to navigate than the word.

This is intriguing in its own right.

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jordan peterson had a series of old testament lectures which look at the symbolism of adam and eve etc. 

also jonathan pageau on youtube is a good watch exploring the symbolism of various things

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6 hours ago, toby said:

I'm the furthest thing from a Bible scholar.

 

Just for curiosity sake, are you looking to the Bible for solutions?

Hahhaa. No.

I am ridding myself of deep seated programming, a Trojan virus implanted as close to birth as they do. 

My childhood was beautiful but also terrifying as I was raised Catholic, and an ancient Irish Monsignor used to berate us children and tell us we were all going to hell. A lot of my life has been affected by feelings of guilt and fear, and I'm just now starting to be free from it all.

I'm not sure why I'm so interested in the Genesis myths, but I find them fascinating. So many people take these as truth, which is kind of astounding when you look into them.

 

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Fear, guilt, shame are products manufactured by a lack of love. I don't know that this is necessarily a Bible problem.

 

Words and understanding may not be the best tools for working on wounded spirit or feelings. 

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Yeah happened to me too. I actually do consider my self a Christian or religious or whatever but my understanding is that Genesis is definitely written in mythology style, as was the way people told stories until very recently when Science was "invented" or the scientific method that is, with the Royal Society in the 1600's. Before then people barely even wrote, but instead told stories and myths, Even Jesus told many stories and fables to deliver his messages.

 

 For about 20 years my parents  subscribed to Creation Science Magazine which in hindsight I feel is more a propaganda magazine than anything else. One of the biggest problems I've seen with the Creation Science organisation, (and movement) is they have kept driving 2 main messages that I totally disagree with. 1  they say, that the Genesis must be taken literally word for word. eg creation took seven days, not seven eons or whatever etc, and 2. they really push the point that believing in evolution (or anything other than "Creationism") will get you sent directly to hell, and all the scientists are going to hell. Seriously, it's woven into every issue of their magazine. So you can see why they have made millions and a cult following for themselves.

 

Now all throughout human history, if there's anything that people don't understand it all get's boiled down to God or Satan. So, for example, God brings the rain to the good people because he loves them, for being good, and those whose crops have failed are getting punished for being sinners. And flowers will know how to come out in spring because that's how God made them, while someone  suffering from epilepsy is possessed by the Devil etc etc etc. As soon as someone throughout history comes up with a scientific explanation for any of these things they are accused of heresy. Just look at Galileo, executed by the church for his scientific observations and postulations. People were similarly demonized for saying wasps were copulating with orchids to cause pollination. -How could God create something so evil and perverted?

 

There's a million examples of this throughout history, and the theory of evolution is just another example. Many Christians actually believe God created evolution, and implanted the gift of consciousness into mankind, what's wrong with that explanation, it's just as plausible as the talking snake version of events. Oh but the people cry Heresy when directed to by their leader. 

 

The thing I like about Evolution is at least they acknowlege it being a theory. Something the Creationists  just simply cannot do lest they be cast into the eternal lake of fire... See how misguided and manipulated they are? One thing is for sure the Bible was not written as a science book. If God WANTED us to know the scientific version of the origin of life in the universe he would have told us the actual story. Just like if God wanted us to have a cure for cancer he would have put that in the book too. But no, we have to go out and find it for ourselves, and the 'scientific method' is our best vehicle for finding those answers. 

 

In a nutshell, science is about separating fact from fiction, using measurable and repeatable processes. The Creation debate is simply not a scientific debate, but a philosophical one. Therefore it is pointless to have a creationist and a scientist debating the issue. It's like an Artist trying to paint science, or  a mathematician debating emotions with equations. They are on totally different planes.

 

I like Einstein's take on Science and Religion that the two can never be in true conflict with each other, but must always confirm each other. Makes sense. If there is a conflict, then one of them must be wrong about something. Scientists should also hold their theories on the very tips of their fingers so that even the slightest whiff of new evidence can blow away that old theory, in place of an updated one. (can't remember who said that one), but that's a problem the religious side has when trying to talk science, they just can't let anything go for fear of speaking blasphemy LOL. And usually that's just someone else's interpretation, not the Bible itself.  Religion is full of sheep and often dodgy people who want to lead others around.

 

Wow, I've really rambled on big time. Anyway, I'd like to finish by saying you can see the age of the planet and the universe all around you, fossils, mountain ranges, comets, and plants and animals really are linked in those branching tree structures. Not just in their skeletons, but in their DNA, and the chemicals found within them, and their roles and symbiosis' in nature.  God also gave us a brain and told us to use it, and not to let people manipulate us, that includes people from both sides. As far as I'm concerned, no one knows 100% what happened, not the scientists, not the creationists, so there is no point trying to form a 100% conclusion. It's OK to say, 'No one really knows the whole story including myself', but you can get a good idea just by looking around, being open to various viewpoints and new information, and using your own brain to form a general understanding of this most existential of issues without rocking your religious views one little bit.

Edited by Halcyon Daze
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Ok, I think maybe I have confused this topic by mentioning two separate things, that are related but let's keep them separate for the sake of clarity.

I have been working on my deprogramming for the last 30 years, and I'm reaching the end game ( I think!). I'm not really looking for assistance with this here.

What I am looking for is some thought and analysis of the myths surrounding Adam and Eve mostly. 

Let me watch a few of the links you have added and messaged me, and I'll come back.

 

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I don't know if it's chicken or egg, but the creation myth, or how it's been told by society over the years, is about traditional gender roles for me. What I mean is idk if the scriptures were originally intended to delineate men's and women's roles as they have, or whether human societies have historically twisted / emphasised certain aspects to support the gender roles already in place.

 

Eg., Eve is created from Adam's rib (woman from man), woman is responsible for "tempting" Adam even though it was the serpent to begin with, etc.

 

God put the tree with the fruit of the knowledge of good / evil in the garden and told Adam and Eve not to eat it. Free will happened, everything got ruined and hence begins the gruelling quest of all eternity to put things right again. Not sure what to make of it really. Most Old Testament stuff seems quite nonsensical to me!

Edited by Cimi

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Posted (edited)

Yes, good clarification.

 

I would situate the genesis myth in the trajectory from the polytheism of mythology to the abstract representational systems of the Abrahamic religions, viz. monotheism. Monotheism has more chance of becoming dogmatic as opposed to the pure forms of mythology (not weaponised mythology like used by the Nazis). So the reprogramming required for a proper convert could be extreme since the monotheistic god claims all of experience founded on a concept of original sin.

 

My suspicion is the adam and eve story is laying groundwork, predominantly for the age of theodicy, linked to ecclesiastical control. It also sets up basic binary oppositions not present in polytheistic religions, paradise/exile from paradise, man/woman, duty/freedom etc. But to get to the monotheistic god that claims all of what can occur, including the need to be redeemer of men, the narrative must first pass through the prism of mythology, since both historically and conceptually it was born out of an older mythological system: you could not go straight to a decree over men, call forth from them some obedience because of an original mistake, if you had not first established that man had 'fallen' and was in need of divine support, so a narrative in the form of a myth must be inserted, which replicates, but moves away from, the foundations of earlier religions. But the type of fall so prominent in adam and eve is simply not present in most of the world's mythology, nor the simple oppositions of binary thinking, esp. good and evil, though there are no doubt quite strict prohibitions on forms of behaviour in, for example, new world mythologies.

 

I don't know because granted I am not a bible scholar (i'm certain however there would be extensive material on this), but the early myths of the bible are surely the framework for demonstrating god's omnipotence and what it is grounded on, man's need of Him, i.e. that god is the only one who could reconcile binary problems, especially that of good and evil that arose through the misdeeds of adam and eve. Having been convinced through a familiar literary device (the myth) that one has 'fallen', and having now entered an irreconcilably binary world, one would then look to some type of redemption or guide for clarification on how to live (which is what myth contributes to in all its forms), so the myth sets up the problem, solved by the godhead, later by the Holy Trinity, whose omnipotence is extracted out of the myth and then held over it as a representation of possible salvation.

 

(It has become apparent to me over the last few years that binary thinking is massively problematic for 'programming', and equally impressive for corralling people into systems of thinking, and it surely is not merely a metaphor that computer programs run using binary code.)

 

More prosaically the myth is simply another manifestation of the theme of culture from nature, which exists so fundamentally in myth, religion, and science, which must be just a natural problem for the mind to think up - but in monotheistic religion it is the concept that culture also meant an 'original sin' or loss of a state of innocence that can be so problematic for those indoctrinated but then seeking to get out of that situation.

 

The gender thing is an interesting angle Cimi, but in the Islamic version,  adam and eve share equal responsibility for being evicted out of the garden.

Edited by Micromegas
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It's interesting that so much is binary in nature, yet in Catholicism in particular, the Trinity is the symbol. 

I like your analysis micromegas, that the fall was required for god to be of any relevance. I still find it hard to fathom how this story has travelled so far and wide, and taken over so much of the world. I guess the Roman empire had a lot to do with that though.

 

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Yes interesting about the trinity, but as I understand it all three parts represent one consubstantial thing, god and his place as the sole omnipotent being in the universe, whereas binaries belong to those of use who have suffered the fall and must deal with them in praxis, woe is us, god save us.

 

Yes, look, I know very little about this but I would like to know more. I suspect there are some very important historical and contingent factors around the spread of monotheistic or Abrahamic religions, then the spectacular rise of Christianity, then some of its various branches (and of course its horrific effects as a colonial device). Something about the timing must have been right, the rise of farming was way back but certainly moving from hunting/gathering to cultivation must have been massive (as the genesis myth states - you must now tend to the land), Greeks had already transformed mythology into a historical and philosophical system so some abstract reasoning required to form representational statements was in place, Rome was expanding, Jesus may have been a very gifted historical personage. Once initiated in the form of monotheism, the idea of a supreme being is entirely enticing, you could almost not avoid having it as (in Kant's terms) a regulative ideal. Before the rise of science the mind would I suspect have been drawn naturally toward it.

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4 minutes ago, Micromegas said:

, Greeks had already transformed mythology into a historical and philosophical system so some abstract reasoning required to form representational statements was in place,

 

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so glad that plants encompass all realms of reasoning and thta free thought is still availed to all

God is a construct that helps people through ignorant times in life and learning and that freely available alkaloids are not all there is in a simple equation

beauty is all encompassing and necessarily in the eye of the be holder -spring is eternal and season changes are what makes us as humans kinda photoperiodical in our existance...

perhaps reverse engineering will find landrace thought permeate in an autoflower existence of sorts

still the sun is the best lamp for all of us and lets hope we harness its awe not forget its purpose

 

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On 24/08/2019 at 5:47 PM, Glaukus said:

Or at least anyone with a decent amount of knowledge about the creation myths, Adam and Eve myths etc?

I was raised as a Catholic and I need to work on eliminating a lot of extremely deep seated programming from my childhood. I had a few interesting "revelations" and there was a lot of info downloaded regarding the Genesis myths, garden of Eden stories, the "fall" and the nature of the demiurge.

I'd love to chat about some of this with someone sometime. Still really trying to form a reasonably coherent line of thought about all of this.

But I feel I'm getting closer to finding the root program that causes a lot of my dysfunctional behaviour.

the best bit about our musings fellow travellors is that nun of our trips are wrong per se, its more about embracing the unknown journey that gives you the tools to survive, lees about gainig the weapons to keep it metaphorically a viable option against imaginary enemies from an even more debilitating paralysis by analysis  

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YouTube some of Kilindi Iyi's talks and you'll defo find references, ala McKenna, to the idea that the apple was a mushroom, Jesus was a mushroom, the Catholic Church is an amanita cult, etc. which is always worth a listen to.

 

Hooj +1 to the idea that the Roman Empire had something to do with the proliferation of Christianity: initially they had everything to do with it. You can't control the majority of the known world, and then institute an alternative, empire-wide, government-supported religion and not spread that stuff around. That's social control 101 bruz. :wink:

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This is pretty much what I was talking about:

 

 

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Definitely convinced Jesus was using soma, mana, focusing on the three major nadis, the Ida, Sushumna and Pingala through true yoga and plant use, scriptures are laden with reference to it, obviously dumbed down into shit like bread and wine in more recent texts... 

 

Drink wine in my remembrance? Wine doesn't help you remember sheeeet.... Entheogens on the other hand..... Well...

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Danny Nemu is a really knowledgeable guy and has a deep interest in 'drugs in the bible'. His many talks, books and articles are on his website here:  https://nemusend.co.uk/home/

 

Also Benny Shanon's hypothesis about entheogens and the bible is worth checking out:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Shanon

 

And of course Jeremy Narby's Cosmic Serpent is a classic regarding the overlaps of creation myth   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cosmic_Serpent

 

...and of course Carl Ruck: https://www.amazon.com/Entheogens-Myth-Human-Consciousness-Carl/dp/1579511414

http://www.sexusjournal.com/?pnum=140&pt=RUCK-C-HAOMA-Greek-Mysteries (this article has a bunch of great references)

 

Michael Winkelman: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnins.2017.00539/full

 

and some other random books: https://www.amazon.com/Mystery-Manna-Psychedelic-Sacrament-Bible/dp/0892817720

                                                                        https://www.amazon.com/Entheogens-Future-Religion-Robert-Forte/dp/1594774382

                                                                        https://www.amazon.com/Entheogens-Development-Culture-Anthropology-Neurobiology/dp/1583946004/ref=sr_1_9?qid=1571801597&refinements=p_27%3AJohn+Rush&s=books&sr=1-9&text=John+Rush

 

and articles: 

https://freedomandfulfilment.com/psychedelics-garden-eden/

https://www.samwoolfe.com/2013/04/the-sacred-mushroom-and-cross-by-john.html

http://grahamhancock.com/phorum/read.php?1,247671,247671

http://psychede.tripod.com/Serpent

https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/biblianazar/esp_biblianazar_84.htm

http://www.herbmuseum.ca/content/haomaconnection

 

 

 

 

 

 

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just wondering for all you "jesus is a mushroom" people do you think all the cardinals are secretly meeting in the vatican basement tripping balls? what about the pope does he have a stomach full of shrooms at his coronation?

at what point if any did christianity cease to be a "mushroom" cult or is that still going? and if it is ongoing do you think thing their psychedelic use contributed to their historic persecution of LGBT people? what about their utter intolerance of any religion other than christianity? did mushrooms contribute to that to?

do mushrooms contibute to the catholic elites usury and corruption? what about all the child rape?

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Easy. Never said I was a 'Jesus is a mushroom' person, just pointing in their direction. Sorry if we've struck a nerve mate, but people are going to think what they want to, and to be honest I have heard WAAAY harder to believe stories than that bruz :wink:

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I think Jesus is a mushroom, and mushrooms are Jesus, in that that sometimes some people will find God through them.

 

As for people doing fucked up things and being intolerant, fucked up people with all kinds of beliefs are like that

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