Cannabis and Panic

[Torsten]

Pot releases (ie depletes) serotonin and dopamine. The combined lack of both is a perfect recipe for anxiety attacks. This has nothing to do with variety as such, but obviously different varieties may be more prone to deplete one or the other.

In general I would say that ALL pot causes a change in neurotransmitter levels/ratios/balances that makes anxiety possible. Obviously, if you have huge reserves of serotonin then you can release heaps and not get any anxiety. Problem is that most people in this stressed out society don't have heaps of serotonin. So just like some people can take large amounts of MDMA for many years and not get depressed, similarly others can smoke for years and not get anxiety.

Bushbuds are less likely to cause this depletion as the quantity depleted can be recovered from overnight in most cases. It's overbred hydro that has me concerned as the damage done is exponential to the amount of active constituent. What I mean is that with bushbuds you can smoke a few grams and not deplete all your reserves hence you never really fall behind. If you however consume 10 times the active constituents per day, then you are maintaining a depleted state as well as keeping the levels of drug in your system so high that no overnight recovery is possible.

I think natural pot in small quantities is pretty much harmless for everyone and is a very important medicine. But I also feel that a lot of damage is being done with the stuff on the market these days.

As for supplements that can help with pot induced anxiety, it is the same story as for any other type of anxiety. You need to build and maintain your serotonin levels (much written on that in these forums, so I won't elaborate). Most people who react badly to fun drugs (eg speed, MDMA, Pot) find that elevated serotonin will fix their problem.

The most important apsect of curing pot anxiety is temporary abstinence. If you can't stop smoking pot then you have a problem and chances are it is the very craving for it that will eventually result in the anxiety. Midly low dopamine & serotonin will drive your addiction, as the release caused by the drug negates your imbalance temorarily, but with detrimental after effects. It's like taking MDMA for depression, coke for shyness or simply caffeine for sleepiness. The caffeine will keep you awake, but you will have even less motivation afterwards.

My recommendation is that if you feel you need pot for things like going to sleep, easing depression, etc then you definitely should NOT be smoking it. If you can stop anytime for a few weeks without affecting your life then you might as well smoke if you feel like it.

====================================

Dubius, why do you work so hard? why not use your money to have a nice life, have some fun and break the rutt you are stuck in? if you need a new perspective on life then explore ayahuasca - it will break your destructive rhythms and will give you the insights that you need and appear to be asking others to deliver to you.

The type of change you need cannot come from another person. It can only come from developing certain realisations that only you can have. And I am not talking about anything spiritual, but about analysing yourself, resetting your brain and re-discovering your life.

I actually think that ibogaine would be the perfect catalyst for you, but sadly this is virtually impossible to obtain in australia and hence ayahuasca is the second best choice. Take a trip overseas maybe.

[ 26. May 2004, 04:30: Message edited by: Torsten ]

[Thelema]

comprehensive answer, torsten, but in my case the "mega-anxiety" pot was in fact bush-bud LEAF!

I dont know how that fits into your theory.

Meanwhiles, I tested the theory by interspersing with "normal" pot, which induced no anxiety.

IMO, there's some cannabinoidal agent other than THC here that induces these states. Of course, im not saying that mindset doesn't have a role to play.

[Torsten]

Thelema, the concepts stands as it is. It is based on the simple premise that if you release something on a daily basis you will deplete it eventually if you do too much or too often.

You will also notice that I never said THC in my text, as I feel that different compounds will unvariably have different effects and side effects. And I don't think we can generalise about one compound in respect to a sample population anyway. It may just be that THC causes panic in 50% of people who at the same time find relaxation in cannabidiol (eg trippy stuff like sativa strains, bush buds, immature hydro), while the other 50% of the population react the other way round, relaxing to the tripy stuff and freaking out on the cannabidiol stuff (eg indica, fully mature hydro).

It is also a little imprecise of me to just call them bushbuds. The concept behind bushbuds is that the elements (wind & rain) get rid of a build up of older resin and hence the composition of resin usually favours the fresher principle THC. Obviously bushbuds during el nino years do not have this removal of the older principles and may well be much more cannabidiol based as their growing season is much longer than hydro.

It is also important to note that most regular smokers actually get NO effect from THC, but erroneously believe that it is the THC that is getting them stoned. THC has a very fast build up of tolerance and smoking every few days will see your receptors totally immune to it. So in effect it is the cannbidiol that is actually getting people stoned and is the effect people seek out.

I would really like to see some experiments where the two substances were separated from the whole mix of chemicals and from each other and applied to anxious smokers. It would answer all these questions rather quickly I think.

Interestingly, when THC was provided to patients in its pure form it had neither the expected medical benefits nor the appreciated affects that pot smoking brings. I really think that THC should not beclassed as the primary active principle in cannabis.

[Rev]

Interesting thel

i am unable to smoke anything BUT a joint of outdoor leaf (and not a full one either) are

enough to get the stimulating high colourful giddy humorous aspect but if i have any more it gets dark, heavy introspective, morbid and physically incapacitating

an anxiety aspect came in after doing this many times - now the coming on of that state freaks me out co i dont want to go there again, and yet theres little you can do once you cross the line except wait.

I really wanted to try sceletium with pot to see if it helps but for truth im too afraid to try it on the grounds it might not work - thats how badly i hate that mental state. So unlike any other drug the visions and train of thought are so inescapable, immaleable, with other things i can bend the mind by will to circumvent disaster but not when stoned

kind of like that line in drinking between euphoria/relaxation and drunk...

so.. ive seriously reduced alc consumpt. and dont smoke anymore

There was a few times i had cake made from outdoor bud from Esperance,WA, which knocked other people about

but not in the usual couch lock way, it was stimulating and very trippy and really enhanced cognitive processes as well as having strong euphoria - in which the effect were similar to a good E - with the bliss waves that run under the skin at times

Reminds me of the purple head and Thai stuff i used to get in Adelaide in the pre-skunk days

Now this bud wasnt much to smoke, quite weak, so im told (i never tried it) but when you put it in chocolate cake and cooked it something strange happened and it became very strong

I do not know what was going on but it was great - unfortunately i was told this strain died out when they had to pull plants early and didnt make seed.

I wish i knew why this stuff was so good when eaten

Theo?? would the cooking make a difference

T? could it be that it was high THC with little or no CBD?

[Dubius]

I am apologizing for not reading this forum sooner!

I used to be a ‘chato'holic’ so I am used to the live response.

I think that any kind of state finds me thinking of the fundamentals.

Neither comfort nor prejudice!

[Dubius]

I can smoke in any situation; happy and sad with mood; with friends and confidants - and those I don't trust - be it bush weed, Thai buds or Hydro - it hurts more when I smoke, than without. I have tried extremely small amounts of DMT and Poppy with Gomao’s gentle coax, but all I feel is fear.

[theobromos]

It is possible that in some cases the 11-OH metabolite of cannabinoids formed in the liver might be more powerful than the non-hydroxylated version. So eating, providing the liver with more material to metabolize more quickly, could be a better stone.

[John_Barleycorn]

The only people I have ever seen seriously flip on out on MJ did it whilst eating, FWIW. I have a theory that it is difficult to smoke enough fast enough to get into that state, because of a temporary tolerance effect that operates. This is why that third joint/bong/whatever often doesn't get anyone more out of it; it just prolongs the stone.

At the risk of sounding alarmist, I often wonder whether these anxiety attacks that people 18-25 experience are a symptom of latent schizophrenia. That seems to be the vulnerable age group.

I had something like that when I left uni and had my first job. The routine of getting out of bed every morning had mucked up my ability to sleep binges off, I was lonely, stressed, etc. One thing I found at this point was that dope and alcohol started having the opposite effects, ie, I was becoming garrulous on dope, but withdrawn on alcohol. Another aspect to it was olfactory hallucinations. I would occasionally (when straight) get the feeling that I stunk, or would have the opposite sensation that someone had waved a perfumey flower under my nose.

I recently saw a doco which suggested smell tests can be used to diagnose schizophrenuia before it becomes full-blown. In that case, however, _lack_ of smell ability was the indicator.

[spiders]

Id agree that the constant ruigour of work can actually do a lot more harm to your psyche than you can actually consciously perceive.

I am sure that my constant lack of sleep, long hours and intense caffiene use have had a big impact on my immune system.