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:):)

Started like this..

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:P then went

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:lol::lol:

And now is screaming

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:rolleyes:

Still not sure if the meaning of this Rorschach inkblot test is communicating ' boil '

Some silene plants are making sure I get the message as well..

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B)

Perhaps it's the same message,just picked by their parents,growing nearby these cacti,an year earlier..

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:innocent_n:

I wouldn't want all the cacti around to scream 'boil' .. so these days I'm trying to hold up close contacts..

Washing my hands after handling Rorschach communication.. / with brandy occasionally :) /

Separate pots..

Separate soils..

Some distance..

The balcony is a confined space though.. and they may all start singing the same song.. sooner or later..

B)

Edited by mysubtleascention

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Frankly I don't understand what's written here, but one of my SSS02Xpachanoi have similar symptoms

post-6382-0-21497100-1439281762_thumb.jp

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I think all those plants just need more sex.

Inkblots always make me think of sex.

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That pattern that can be seen on the last five pics of the first post is caused by a virus. Probably one from the Tobacco Virus families. Plants can get that when they suffer from nutrient defiencies so it´s not always caused by a virus but in this case, I am sorry to say that It definitely looks viral. It doesn´t affect the general health of the plants but make sure not to let it spread throughout the collection. Healthy plants can get it under control, what means they look relatively normal. But it IS infecting and is usually spread by sucking insects like ants.

Possible that t he Silenes have it too but it could also be caused by sucking insects there. The patterns on the Bridgesiis are not caused by insects though. It´s actually possible that the silenes are infected too, but it´s just not as dominant as on the Bridgesiis.

Philocacti, your´s could be viral too but it MAY have been caused by lack of nutrients. Not sure on yours, but chances are it is actually infected. The problem is that this can go away and the infected plants can look relatively normal. The plant looks like it isn´t in great health, so that could have triggered an outbreak.

Edited by Evil Genius
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If it's a virus then maybe it's too much sex.

I knew sex would have to come into it though.

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Probably the progeny of one or both such parent cacti is going to inherit the Rorschach communication patterns.. maybe unseen before mix :):)

Perhaps if an unsuspecting mother plant is to be pollinated,usinig a pollen coming from a Rorschach father plant, a consent should be considered as well ..

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Edited by mysubtleascention

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Wiki info for Tobacco Mosaic Virus [link]

" TMV can be transmitted from one plant to another by direct contact. Although TMV does not have defined transmission vectors, the virus can be easily transmitted from the infected hosts to the healthy plants, by human handling."

" TMV is known as one of the most stable viruses. It has a very wide survival range. As long as the surrounding temperature remains below approximately 40 degrees Celsius, TMV can sustain its stable form. All it needs is a host to infect. If necessary, greenhouses and botanical gardens would provide the most favorable condition for TMV to spread out, due to the high population density of possible hosts and the constant temperature throughout the year."

"One of the common control methods for TMV is sanitation, which includes removing infected plants, and washing hands in between each planting. Crop rotation should also be employed to avoid infected soil/seed beds for at least two years. As for any plant disease, looking for resistant strains against TMV may also be advised. Furthermore, the cross protection method can be administered, where the stronger strain of TMV infection is inhibited by infecting the host plant with mild strain of TMV, similar to the effect of a vaccine."

:excl:

Edited by mysubtleascention

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Perhaps this may be transfered to the mother plant in the pollination process itself..

:rolleyes:

Edited by mysubtleascention

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I've two plants in the ground at opposite sides of my garden with this same affliction. They are growing within inches of other plants that do not have any signs whatsoever, and havent for years. The affected areas on the plant seem to be those that get direct sunlight. So one side of the plant may show symptoms while the backside is completely green.

Is it a virus or a genetic defect? Why would a virus only manifest itself in areas of the plant that receives full sun? Why not the growing tip, as its in full sun as well?

Could it be that some plants are more susceptible to UV damage than other plants and these manifestations are more prevalent now than in years past?

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Do those chlorotic patches eventually scar up or do they stay white forever ?

If the area scars up it could indicate some sort of sucking insect damaging the plant. I'm not stating that as a fact though as a chlorotic area could also be susceptible to sun burn.

If the area did get sunburnt as a result of chlorosis then that would be obvious to someone who's seen both sunburn and insect damage.

@ Zelly - maybe there could be a genetic trait that has been inadvertently propagated that involves pigmentation and has a photo dependent response needed before that trait is expressed ?

Just bouncing ideas around.

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I always struggle identifying nutrient deficiencies / toxicities / unavailabilities and things like bacterial and viral infections. Everytime i solidify nutrient issues with backed up reasearch, a curve ball comes and everything crashes down and leaves me in utter confusion.

Different plant genus and species seem to show different symptoms of the same issues, indicating to me different ways of metabolism/storage/environmental interaction or suceptabilities and specific contexts of a given issue. Group with this different soils, environmental influences, different cultural practices, fertilisers and their applications and local and introduced influences be it animal/insect or product availabilties and their sources, it gets to be a hair pulling exercise in diagnosis.

Very limited numbers of people spend their lives dedicated to studying plant physiology and interactions, whilst even then their knowldge can be a specialty limited to a genus, species and or within a very specific environmental context be in a field, greenhouse and state or country.

You can read multiple descriptions of things like nutrient deficiencies and get wildly different answers, it often takes hours of researching to find a single sentence that can bring all things together, and context can confirm, deny and sway the information.

I think there are endemic viral issues with the species we work with, or possibly all are simply infected due to our very limited plant numbers and proximity of specimens with some possibly being suceptible, others immune, or possibly some just showing symptoms whilst others carry but never show or will only show given a specific trigger.

I get similar chlorosis all through my collection, halo type rings, small pin chlorotic spotting, running/weaving/spreading type chlorosis. I think some are viral and some are nutrient issues. It can often be worse for me in wet winters in poor soils with out of whack nutrient profiles in the soils and applications. Currently (and generally always have) am getting a lot on TBM's and PC type pachs, not exclusively but they always seem the most obvious. Yowie seems more susceptible to tip pin like chlorosis from cold / frost 'damage'.

Mesophyllic cell collapse seems to fit a lot of the time, though i'm lacking education and understading regarding it's causes. Calcium I think can be the cause sometimes, due to a deficiency or unavailability. It can be from cold fluids/soils/air, but also from lack of water and dry environments. I've seen photos of water stressed (drought i think) halo like chlorosis mesophyllic cell collapse in citrus essentially identical to PC type pach symptoms. Although the halo type chlorosis feels viral to me for unknown reasons.

These chlorosis symptoms of potential nutritional and or viral/bacterial origins as well as black rot are something I really want to understand more so they can be actively avoided and increase education of plants and environments.

I think the answers will primarily come from understanding soils, it's an uphill battle particularly with fucked up education and commercial interests with fertiliser companies that we are unavoidably intertwined in. Clarifying information with such companies is more often than not a completely useless excercise with parroted tow the line rhetoric. If people are unaware (in my opinion) the agricultural/horticultural industries are essentially the same and or inextricably tied in with the same issues that we are (or are becoming) aware of in relation to health care / pharmaceutical industries agenda.

Edited by gerbil
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Hi Guys, here is the thing. Of course something like that can be caused by nutrient defiency. I already said that in my original post. However, I´ve seen nutrient related "variegation" very oftenly and this is NOT what it is. If you believe it or not; I am sure the plants in the pic would test positive for the tobacco mosaic virus. This reminds me a little about HIV and Aids. Just an example. Fungal infections are very common among people who are infected with HIV. And that´s because the virus somehow affects the immune system in a negative way. That doesn´t mean that all people with generalized candida infections have in fact HIV...but a large part of the infected people suffer from them; and usually a lot worse than the infections on other people that don´t have the virus.

Personally, I´ve never seen plants like the ones in the first post that looked like this and WEREN´T positive for TMV. Of course it´s possible in tiny, tiny percentage of the cases that this is actually caused by nutrient defiency but I wouldnt want to gamble my whole collection on being right. If you want, no problem for me. Please keep in mind that many infected plants DO NOT HAVE SYMPTOMS. Period. In addition, this virus can only affect some types of plants. Not all of them. Some plants are immune. So looking at the neighborhood plants is absolutely worthless. It´s like guessing. It could be nutrient related but it could as well be caused by a virus. And think that the chance for it to be an infection is a lot bigger. I know how nutrient variegation looks like. It´s smaller specks, the epidermis is not as green, looks grayish and faded and I just think that the plants look more like a textbook example for the TMV. A part of the "variegated" plants sold online are nothing but infected. Not all of course and there probably are a lot more genetic variegations than viral, but it happens all the time.

And about it being genetic. Well yeah, possible. When did it occur? Like from youth? Like, right after germination? Then it´s probably genetic. If a 10yo plant suddenly has a pattern like that, it´s not genetic. Simple as that. Plants can suffer from mild sunburn or damage from spider mites, but that´s really not how that looks like. Sure it´s possible that something like that is caused genetically. But I don´t think that plants that looked totally normal for a couple of years and suddenly change their color are perfectly healthy. And if so, it is a genetic defect that keeps the plant from fighting off viruses...so the outcome is the same.

There are many potential causes for this, nutrient defiency (usually not as bad as that and a lot more subtle), genetic (from birth), chemicals, sunburn (looks more orange because it tends to infect) or insect damage.

Edited by Evil Genius
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Why would a virus only manifest itself in areas of the plant that receives full sun? Why not the growing tip, as its in full sun as well?

Could it be that some plants are more susceptible to UV damage than other plants and these manifestations are more prevalent now than in years past?

All around the circumference here.. No difference between the same clone cuttings growing at full sun and in shaded spot.. :)

Edited by mysubtleascention

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Do those chlorotic patches eventually scar up or do they stay white forever ?

No scarring up .. it's a constant look starting like this every year :

omar.JPG

eileen.JPG

scop.tiny%2Bspine.JPG

.. and within the 6 - 7 warm months of growing ,progresses to :

IMG_1073.JPG

Edited by mysubtleascention

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Mysubtleascention, can you please check the plants for spider mites? It looks to me as if the plant could have some spidermites. That "spiderweb" on the plants can oftenly be caused by spiders...but it´s sometimes actually spider mites and since they can cause such patters too (but usually not as bad as here) you might want to check that with a magnifying glass. Just to rule it out...or not.

Edited by Evil Genius
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I think all those plants just need more sex.

Inkblots always make me think of sex.

Rorschach agrees with you:

tVKDCiO.jpg

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can you please check the plants for spider mites?

There's this crawler with elongated body [see the white arrow] ,that usually is near the tip on some or all cacti :

IMG_1018%2B-%2B%25D0%259A%25D0%25BE%25D0

.. very fast movement up and down,preferes indentations ,no webs associated with it.. it's there every season..

The spider mites usually prefer desmanthus leptolobus tender greenery and it's gone fast..

This year the buckets are almost untouched in very close proximity to the Rorschach clones - Omar;Euro Scopulicola; Eileen; TBM; Tig ..

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The patterns on the cacti are too consistent and repeating year after year,to be produced by mite infestation,which seems more random and sparse on desmanthus plants .. :)

Edited by mysubtleascention
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That little fella is probably a thrip and besides the mottling they can cause are said to be a vector for some virus such as the Tospovirus genus and other chlorotic type viruses. Oddly it's claimed they aren't a direct vector for Tobamovirus but possibly their pierce and sucking nature can introduce those types indirectly.

EG, how where the specimens that you've seen identified as positive for TMV, are there field tests or is lab analysis needed? Where these lab analysed or just keyed out and thought to be Tobamoviruses?

Outside of nutrients and waterlogged soil symptoms, the photos in post 15 appear to be quite classic as to what i'd claim is in everyones collection in Australia and quite possibly in every single plant. What do you make of this, particularly in context of thoughts to quarrantine and or kill such specimens?

To me these sorts of viruses are persistant and endemic in our collections and unrealistic to fully treat and eradicate. Some folks over the years have shown quite severe cases of what could be these types of these viruses, but most appearances of these possible types seem to do no real observable damage and as said are persisant in our collections.

Edited by gerbil
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EG, how where the specimens that you've seen identified as positive for TMV, are there field tests or is lab analysis needed? Where these lab analysed or just keyed out and thought to be Tobamoviruses?

Hey Gerbil, I´ve been a member of a workgroup that investigated viral infections in house plants, succulents and cacti. That was not only limited to TBM but it was one of the most important ones, as there are many others that do not cause any signs of infections while the TBM does. I have a couple of books on the subject and every year there was another journal that inlcuded the findings like percentage of infected plants vs. immune species, etc. I also tested the infections by simply infecting other cacti . You can transmit viruses such as the TBM by grafting. But sometimes it takes years to produce characteristic signs of infection. All the infected plants did NOT have any health problems other than the mosaic patterns.

Edited by Evil Genius
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Here two pach x j3's doing a similar thing, one grows really wierd and buckled over. Out of this seed batch I got 1/3 normal and beautiful looking, 1/3 doing this blotchy thing and another 1/3 starting to go montrose. They've all had the same soil and nutrients as my other plants, maybe give or take a pinch here and there. Doesn't seem to want to infect the rest of the collection. No mites either.

Reminds me of this Rorschach communication stuff ;)

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Edit; these plants are growing just as well as all the others and don't seem to be hindered at all.

Edited by theuserformallyknownasd00d
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Well it sounds like we'll all fucked, or at least will most likely have to learn to live with this. Considering how prolific TMV is in plants from Solanaceae like our loved chillis and brugs. Not to mention it can also be passed on by cigarettes and commercial tobacco products. (So I'll blame my old housemate if I get any! :wink: )

And how likely is this type shown the new variety of the virus called Cactus mild mottle virus?

Cactus mild mottle virus.pdf

[EDIT] - and apparently the virus doesn't even cause cactus to crest so it really is no good to us! There's an interesting comment in the article below too "The obtained results confirm the high capacity of plant Cactaceae family to be infected with viruses."

Cactus virus doesn't cause fasciation.pdf

Edited by zed240
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They are good papers zed240, came across the mild mottle virus one the other day and did some half arsed searching for pictures but only found that black and white one in the paper. I was hoping for some better pictures in colour since the paper has been out for 10 years but came up with nothing, but probably more so my search skills!

I'm glad the mottle virus doesn't cause crests haha think i'm the odd one out around here, not really wanting crests as well as wanting to compost variegates! :P

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What do you make of this, particularly in context of thoughts to quarrantine and or kill such specimens?

:)

The intended recipient cactus collectors of such plants /or potential carrier plants and seeds / may be informed about the presence of these patterns ..

Edited by mysubtleascention

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can they be watered with jergon sacha and una de gato tea ?

I'm gna try that if I suspect any of mine i think but might be a while until I can gleam any data from personal experience...

anybody tried that before? or think it might be worth a shot?

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