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Seeking ideas and input on the realms of education, namely what is missing, what is damning and what could and should be done much better?

I'm interested in alternative education and am seeking input and ideas towards improving and advancing the provision of education for little people.

I'd like to broaden my knowledge base of the issues faced and agonies experienced by children and their families within mainstream education, and primarily develop a clearer perspective of what priorities should take precedence.

If you have children, might like to one day, or simply have been a child :P - what are the main focal points you would prioritise in education?

This can be big or small, ethical and philosophical or practical and definitive.

Thanks!

Edited by bogfrog
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Developmental appropriateness based on a non-materialistic/non-reductionist view of the human being.

Incorporating/integrating the arts with all subject areas as much as possible.

Reverence and beauty in the learning environment and learning activities.

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Gardening in it's multitude of forms.

Animals.

An appreciation/love of nature in all it's forms is the foundation of our future.

Getafix

Edited by Getafix
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How to learn.

That's all. Some people never learn how to figure stuff out for themselves, so they feel helpless. Or they don't know how to filter out good sources from bad (this usually ends in extremes - either believing all kinds of random conspiracy stuff, or just rejecting everything as "oh that's just something you read on the internet/in a book - how do you know it's true?"). Teach 'em to fish, and all that. Once they have this skill, they can go and answer all their own questions about why the sky is blue & how batteries work & so on, and no doubt learn all kinds of other cool stuff on the way (wikipedia links ahoy!), without being totally dependent on their teacher, parent, or classroom environment for their education. Of course the downside to this system is that the adults don't learn as much. But we can still help, by verifying their sources for them or helping them with self discipline (i.e. when to stop clicking wikipedia links :P ) & how to structure their questions for the best answers and what-have-you. I know it's a bit of a nebulous one, but I can't think of a single more useful thing to teach someone. Teaching them how to teach themselves to fish. Doesn't get much better than that.

I also reckon that everyone should be taught basic scientific method & statistics (so they know when they're being lied to, basically - and so they can make informed decisions about well, almost anything), but that's probably getting beyond the scope of this question about "little people".

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I'd almost agree completely^, except that the cycle of learning and teaching has led to some problems by my assessment. If the thinkers tell us what to learn then how can the learners become the next thinkers?

What about presenting kids with different explanations and asking them to investigate the merits of each or even produce their own explanation.

As anodyne said this stuff probably applies more to students from around ten onwards, but perhaps it can apply to little ones? I could teach kids for as long as they will listen but I get more of a kick from encouraging them to think.

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Cool Bogfrog, great to hear.

The number one thing is to make sure that school is not compulsory. As soon as kids 'have to be there', resistance is created. They subsequently cannot all enjoy being there, which filters on. Make school elective, though with some guidelines/expectations. In order to do this class sizes need to be capped at about a dozen, and the learning needs to be self-directed, with all kids access to technology and resources. This requires more tax for education or more fees for parents...

The reason we have kids that can't read/write etc. is mainly due to the fact that for them to take some power and control over their lives (in their tough situations) the simply refuse to learn because they are feeling forced to. If education was non-compulsory we would see a desire to be there, and for those that have no desire to be there all the better. They can do what makes them happy. I know that within a few generations of illiteracy children would chose willingly to learn.

Learning is awesome, just look at a young child and how ecstatic they get when they learn a new word or skill. And then fast forward to 16 year olds smoking bongs before class because it sucks. What happened? Their desire to learn has been beaten out of them because what they care about generally isn't taught in school and they HAVE to learn stuff they don't care about. In Australia, they'll send people to your house if you miss more then 20% school and if you don't go, they'll take your parents to court... To learn stuff that you don't care about and is irrelevant.

I've got heaps to say on this topic. I am a registered teacher, but have worked mainly as an consultant for NSW DET on extreme behaviours. I have seen the worst of schools, teachers and students. I have very little desire to go back to schools now because the system has it all wrong and I can't keep the facade of "teaching" kids about a false system. Reality is subjective, we've known this for more then 100 years and yet we still treat every student in Australia the same content (national curriculum). Education currently exists as a normalisation and socialisation , and not as any liberating fountain of knowledge. It creates everyone to be very similar, or within a known band of behaviours.

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oh my acids -

fear

.. base

in formation !

Edited by mysubtleascention

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A few more thoughts...


The most enduring aspect of my own education had nothing to do with the content - that's just stuff, I can always friggin google it. It's curiosity, and joy in learning - and you can't teach that, you have to inspire it.

One thing you can do to help is not punish students for being curious. One of my teachers used to put aside time at the end of each class for questions - this was a nice compromise - the class didn't get constantly interrupted, but you still felt involved. If the questions were interesting enough, they got turned into a future lesson or project - so students were motivated to come up with good questions.

For little kids, I also feel that they shouldn't be punished for being honest. Usually if kids admit to doing something wrong like breaking something, they're punished - the parents/teachers don't seem to realise that they're training their kids to lie. Even if you are still going to punish them for breaking the thing, you should first thank them for telling the truth & taking responsibility. If you show them respect this can also help to keep the punishment an impersonal thing - a simple consequence of doing something wrong, rather than them seeing it as a spiteful reaction of yours. In the long run, I think that being treated with respect will make a more lasting impression than sitting in the corner for ten minutes. This applies to people of all ages of course, but it's best to start early - how many adults do you work with who still won't admit to breaking something? How much better would the world be if everyone just owned their shit?

The reason we have kids that can't read/write etc. is mainly due to the fact that for them to take some power and control over their lives (in their tough situations) the simply refuse to learn because they are feeling forced to. If education was non-compulsory we would see a desire to be there, and for those that have no desire to be there all the better.

...Their desire to learn has been beaten out of them because what they care about generally isn't taught in school and they HAVE to learn stuff they don't care about.

You can teach kids that learning will give them power and control. One way to do this is to give them optional work, which gives them some advantage in a game or task in the next lesson. Eventually some of them will start looking stuff up on their own for an extra edge.

As I said above, content isn't everything. Even if it's the most dry, boring outdated syllabus, you can still teach useful skills. Give them twenty questions which are answered somewhere in their crumbling 1970's textbook, with chocolate to the winner. It's amazing how fast kids will learn about indexes & skim-reading when there's chocolate at stake.

Another point is that people learn in different ways, so it's important to teach using a variety. Get them to use different methods - detailed notes, bullet-point summaries, graphs & diagrams, or no notes at all - just sit and listen. They can learn the strengths & weaknesses of each, and later on they will work out which methods they want to use for different things.

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Awesome, thanks for all your thoughtful responses, very useful indeed and much in alignment with my own areas of emphasis.

Responsible Choice, you hit the nail on the head, especially that 1st point you made. I feel a lot of the injurious activity teachers partake in stems from a sense of superiority over children, alocated by possessing a greater chronological age. What is missing from this equation is the consideration that there is innate wisdom and power within every being - regardless of the affixed number.

Integration of the arts is a crucial one too, as far as I'm concerned. If creative and artistic expression were given due standing in education I expect we could see greater acceptance of non-linear and intuitive learning, moving away from the notion of intellectual development having highest priority and opening towards symbolic and emotional avenues of development.

Getafix - I completely agree. Gardening is such a multifaceted domain I couldn't imagine any tangible reason why it isn't a necessary component of every educational system.. it offers endless opportunities for planning, action, observation, reflection, experimentation and of course the ultimate joy that arises from experiencing the fruits of one's efforts. Another strongpoint being that kids are often much more open to eating veggies which they otherwise wouldn't touch.

Reverence for nature and developing a greater understanding of natural cycles and processes has provided the foundation for the majority of my own learning as a wee person, although this was for the most part self directed outside of school hours. Thankfully due to the rise of nature based education this is slowly gaining focus as a valuable component of learning, however it may be quite some time before it is given due recognition as a vehicle for valuable lifelong learning.

Anodyne - excellent posts! Thank you! While the age group I'm working in is pre-primary, I still can glean a lot of useful direction from your advocation of the scientific method. Thankfully the open-endedness of education in this age range leads to a lot of self-directed investigation. Developing a sense of their own capability to find and evaluate the information they seek may occur in less directly obvious forms in such young children, but I think facilitating this within the earliest experiences of learning can lay some really strong foundations for the future.

One qualm I face is - as being a source of information, one who is approached with questions, I am always and unavoidably filtering my responses through the matrix of my own thoughts, feelings and experiences, thus sculpting the nature of the response through the nature of who I am. I feel compelled as such to remain a vigilant observer of my own output, and try to minimise the unnecessary conference of my own beliefs and values.

Thunder - What you say about providing different possible conclusions and leaving it to the thinkers to decide for themselves is a very good approach. Allowing the power to rest with the thinker themselves to choose the explanation that sits right with them best should go a long way in faciliating self awareness and knowledge of the power one has to make their own decisions, the right to having preferences and the ability to stand by these even when others may not agree.

MountainGoat - thanks for your input, it's really good to hear from someone who is already working in this field. I guess the main problem presented by the idea of non-compulsory schooling is that in our current cultural paradigm, school exists for more reasons than simply education. In some ways I have considered it to be a byproduct of industrialised culture, children need somewhere safe and somewhat regulated so their parents can work..if parents were not obliged to work all day and school was optional then I expect very few children would choose to be away from their homes and families for such substantial blocks of time. But yeah. Absolutely see your point. I really disliked school personally and feel i gained a lot more from the learning I engaged in outside of the classroom.

Yet the insistent pressure of educators upon children to learn what is prescribed is definately something I will consider. The open-endedness and child-centred approach of early years education is what drew me in this direction as apposed to primary or secondary education. Yet any headway made before formal schooling may become redundant if not followed through by teachers who have similar intentions. Sadly I agree that the purpose of education as it stands is primarily indoctrination and specialisation towards a particular career. I suppose if more voices arise to point out the fallibility of prescriptive education some headway could be made.

I have been quite inspired by the way in which some children are taking this scenario into their own hands, I wonder if any of you have heard of Logan LePlante? He created his own educational system called Hackschooling, a surprisingly sophisticated yet flexiable and dynamic system which allows him to explore what he would like to learn, when he wants to:

Anodyne - great point about punishment. This is a somewhat forbidden word in my field, yet I've seen it still operates in much the same way, yet through subtler behaviours and practices. If as a standard, behaviour which caused harm to others was discussed with all parties involved and the implications and results explored in a non-accusatory and non-judgemental manner, conflict resolution could be seen as an opportunity for development rather than a negative experience without any form of merit.

Honesty is something I had already been considering, although from the opposite side of the coin, being truthful with children rather than covering the reality with fluff and niceness because we underestimate their capacity to recognise and comprehend the truth of the matter. Developmental appropriateness always considered of course, but I really dislike the way many adults are prone to answering genuine questions with responses like "that's just the way it is" or "because I said so, now do as you have been told". In taking such a stance we dishonour the intelligence of the questioner and disregard the value of the curiosity which prompted the questioning.

Phew, sorry it took me a couple days to formulate some responses, and thank you all for your wonderful input!

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Hey Anodyne, you've the the nail on the head with a lot of your observations.

"It's curiosity, and joy in learning - and you can't teach that, you have to inspire it." Absolutely, in fact the understanding of the term Teaching is false. Teaching doesn't exist, only learning. Information is nothing until a consciousness perceives and processes it, which will always be a uniquely subjective experience. All the power is with the learner in their own education. 'Teachers' can only hope to support (and maybe increase) a child's thirst for learning.

"parents/teachers don't seem to realise that they're training their kids to lie". True. This is a huge problem for society! The flow on effects are enormous. I could write for hours on this alone, but won't. I'm glad people know this, thank you. However, it does raise an important point about rewards and punishment. They need to be intrinsic, not extrinsic. Punishment should not exist, it is a paradigm issue. If the learning environment is set up in a way that clear boundaries are set, then choice is key. If the child makes a choice which leads to a boundary violation, that was their choice - so 'punishment' does not exist, it was a personal choice to have that consequence. A subtle paradigm shift, but THE most important understanding in behavioural guidance (not behavioural management). When this has been achieved, the teacher only facilitates the child's choice and they are completely removed from any morality imposition or authority power games. The child is disciplining themselves and developing their own morality. And there is no resentment towards the teacher for their part in the process.

At the same time, in my opinion, it is much better to not offer external rewards for achievement (like chocolates). This takes the focus away from the learning process for a certain goal, and the learning often gets lost in the competition. If rewards are offered, it should be to everyone and just because they exist and they are valued and respected. I think that the only time rewards need to be offered is when the content has no relevance to the students, make it relevant and their learning is reward enough.

The training kids to lie thing is interesting how it stimulates a fear of authority. I imagine that everyone changes in some small way when they see the police. I do. And this fear for punishment drives most of our actions without conscious awareness of it. For example, why do people park in a car park and not right in front of the doors to the supermarket? Is it because they are thinking of everyone else getting equal access, or because they don't want a punishment (ticket etc..). I think that the overwhelming majority make decisions on an aversion to punishment. I'm sure that if people could actually make the choice to park where-ever without punishment they would eventually settle to parking in car parks anyway (after some time of experimenting with parking where-ever and then realising why car parks are cool) , but because it feels better. This subconscious conditioning puts everyone in a stressed state. Choice through fear, or choice through love. It takes a leap of faith into humanity, but it has to start somewhere....

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goats last paragraph: co-operation in society, all of those many courtesies that allow us to make life easier for others and by reciprocation makes our own life easier........... am i wrong to think of this as a trait that one properly acquires well into adulthood, if at all? actually i think many kids have the tendancy but they are forced to abandon it by their childhood world, and find it again well into adulthood.

i don't think there is an immaculate path to maturity, or it's beyond anybodies abilities to administer it.

i wonder if some philosophical notions wouldn't help kids to bypass so many challenges.

it's really the most incredibly difficult thing that you're undertaking bogfrog, but i know you will get closer to the mark than many others would think possible.

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I'm really into Charles Eisenstein at the moment

Haven't had chance to read the whole thread yet, but being a dad this is on my mind often

Here's Charles thoughts on conventional schooling

Edited by ajna
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speak to kids like they are little adults.....

I in a past life believe it or not, had a fair bit to do with primary,secondary kids,indigenous, and another life uni students.

teaching the primary and secondary about water and the importance of it.... some of my best work I reckon :wink:

some excellent points raised....for me it was got to engage them....not engaged, well then not switched on :wink: .

Once engaged, then the why,what,where and how comes out, and its been touched on....but thats what you have to ignite IMO

.....easier said than done...lol

A lot of teachers called me the "problem child" whisperer....lol....I always told them I was one myself, and could relate......

IMO there is no "problem child". (EDIT - there are "problem adults")

THE IMPORTANCE OF QUALITY AND DIVERSITY OF TEACHERS ..... Its not just content/curriculum..... Its not just content/curriculum.....Its not just content/curriculum

dunno if that helps, but when I have some clarity boggy I'll add some more of

EDIT - there is also something to be explored in the hours that kids learn in, and how this changes during their growth.

Edited by waterboy
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what about this old chestnut: girls and boys being taught separately until the boys are no longer lagging behind intellectually.

not sure if it's the wisest idea in the long run, but maybe there is another way to address the issue of boys developing some kind of emotional issue from being constantly outperformed (i can't remember the exact causes and conclusions drawn by experts, only that it could be the reason that so many boys would rather interrupt the classroom than participate in the desired way)

I'm really into Charles Eisenstein at the moment

Haven't had chance to read the whole thread yet, but being a dad this is on my mind often

Here's Charles thoughts on conventional schooling

man..... it sounds so real the way he says it.... if school was originally indoctrination to do shitty work for the rest of your life, then is that still the case?

if so then they need to lift their game, because i'd still choose any reasonable option available to get out of doing shitty work for the rest of my life.

Edited by ThunderIdeal
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MountainGoat, thanks you explained that idea about punishment/consequences much better - that it needs to be made an internal thing, to allow them to develop their own ethics. And as you pointed out, the knock-on effects from this are huge.

At the same time, in my opinion, it is much better to not offer external rewards for achievement (like chocolates). This takes the focus away from the learning process for a certain goal, and the learning often gets lost in the competition.

Yeah I agree really, it's not ideal. But little people often don't deal well with delayed reinforcement - if they can't see an immediate benefit to doing something, then they won't want to do it. So even if there is an eventual reward/benefit, they won't get there because they've fallen at the first hurdle. Some teachers can bridge that gap just with their own approval - and that can be reinforcement enough in some situations, and that's great. Or you can offer some more abstract "reward" like points or gold stars or whatever, they all help to fill that same role of providing positive reinforcement. But definitely, if the course content allows it, it's far better to have the learning be the reward. If kids are starting to ask, "what's the point of learning this", then it's probably time to start working some practical examples in by letting the history class build trebuchets or whatever. This helps to internalise the "reward" too - it becomes a direct "I learnt about levers and now I can throw a grapefruit 200m - learning is awesome! - now I'm going to go read about the designs that superseded these" and it becomes more about their own satisfaction in the task, rather than "I read about medieval weapons because my teacher told me I needed a better mark to pass", which is just some dubious future benefit coupled with fear of authority. This doesn't need to be every lesson - the practical stuff can even be a reward for learning the theory (eg. kids that pass the fire-safety test get to blow things up next science class) but incorporating it occasionally can help to reinforce that idea that knowledge is power.

You're probably not allowed to give kids chocolate these days anyway - may contain nuts & traces of food-hysteria. :P

And sorry bogfrog for drifting off-topic a bit. But while I'm mainly using highschool examples, I think most of the ideas should still apply. As others have said, gardening would be great for introducing all kinds of complex ideas to young children. I think most (maybe all?) of the concepts covered in this thread could be worked into gardening classes.

ThunderIdeal - I disagree that ethics are mainly for adults. I think that's the problem. Adults think that the ethical dilemmas they face themselves are too complex for kids to contemplate, so they don't encourage thinking about them - instead they just say "this is what's right, don't argue", and as MG pointed out, there's often an element of fear-of-punishment as well. But while the specific examples that adults face might be beyond a 6-year-old's comprehension, the basic principle of thinking things through should be happening at all ages. As you said, no one is ever ethically 'mature' - it's a constant ongoing education as we're exposed to more complex examples. We get better by experience, so in my logic at least, this is something kids should practice too. If they need simpler examples, then give them simpler examples. Instead they're trained to defer to authority, which they resent, but might not feel able to work out their own ideas. And then they grow into adults with the same problem - as you said, some get over it and come good, but many don't. They just continue obeying the rules because they're afraid of the consequences of breaking them, and scamming whenever they think they can get away with it - and in neither case do they actually think about whether they're doing the right thing, because they've been taught that they don't need to make ethical decisions for themselves, that some higher authority decides that stuff.

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Religion must be banned in all it's forms from all schools, it needs to be illegal for any school age child to be indoctrinated into a religion.

I really feel passionate about that and I really think people completely underestimate the long-term damage religion does to society, by just being short sighted about it and thinking teaching kids of a false purpose is better than teaching them the truth of no purpose. But personally, I think the kids of today (the adults of tomorrow) really need to come to grips with the fact that no ones coming to save us and to create a better world, we need to save ourselves.

On a more practical & less philosophical note, bring back tech schools! Not every kid is interested or capable of being a doctor, lawyer or whatever other professional. Some kids would just learn math skills or whatever else much more effectively though carpentry and wood work. It really does tear the confidence out of a lot of kids when there forced to sit at a desk 40 minutes at a time doing theoretical tasks that just don't interest them in anyway.

That's when there defense mechanism kicks in and they start rocking up for class late & china eyed at 13 years old, killing there boredom disrupting the whole class by messing with the teachers head, trying to prove to the teacher there more intelligent than they are anyway, even if I can't do this ridiculous task there trying to force upon me.

lol, I had some fun at school, but the whole process was completely counterproductive to making me a productive and stable adult.

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^^^I've never been able work you out. Are you just a troll writing some random nonsense, or the po po's trying to mess with my head.

Let's see you have 1500 kilos of steal dropped on your foot, well everyone just looks away and the supervisor stare's & grins straight at you, well your yelling for some prick to just press that goddamn button, lift this shit off me. I walked off the factory floor without limping once, then back there the next day at 7am with 3 broken toes, going just as hard as I had the day before............ Now you know what I'm all about!!!

I may drop like a bitch, but I always get back up and I never quit.

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what about this old chestnut: girls and boys being taught separately until the boys are no longer lagging behind intellectually.

not sure if it's the wisest idea in the long run, but maybe there is another way to address the issue of boys developing some kind of emotional issue from being constantly outperformed (i can't remember the exact causes and conclusions drawn by experts, only that it could be the reason that so many boys would rather interrupt the classroom than participate in the desired way.

Hmmm, just my personal take on this, but I'm not so much a fan of this idea..having attended an all girls high school for a good chunk of my secondary schooling I am inclined to think we learn best when given accurate expressions of society in our education. While there's likely some potential benefits to the approach, more so in high school I'd say - I would consider that segregation according to the sexes limits our capability to properly relate to and understand the opposite sex. I have been told that the notion of boys 'lagging behind' intellectually is not a particularly accurate representation, and likely stems from differences in learning style and simply expresses the need for further inquiry into personal learning processes - working the education system to fit the learners, rather than expecting them to accommodate the system.

I see a parallel between this and the concept that children with impairments should be educated in specially designed schools without contact with un-impaired peers. The primary problem being that almost all learning occurs in social contexts, drawing meaning from the expression and activity of all participants in our cultural group. If our cultural group is intentionally limited to those who are functioning in the same or a very similar way as us, development is limited, we only experience what we already know first hand. Greater potential for developing understanding occurs when we are exposed to alternative views, different ways of approaching learning and behaviour that is unfamiliar to us. Then we have the opportunity to clarify our own perspective in relationship to its opposite.

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Religion must be banned in all it's forms from all schools, it needs to be illegal for any school age child to be indoctrinated into a religion.

I really feel passionate about that and I really think people completely underestimate the long-term damage religion does to society, by just being short sighted about it and thinking teaching kids of a false purpose is better than teaching them the truth of no purpose. But personally, I think the kids of today (the adults of tomorrow) really need to come to grips with the fact that no ones coming to save us and to create a better world, we need to save ourselves.

Yes! Agreed - very much so. Although I'm interested to hear what ya'll think in relation to childhood spirituality. I am deeply against religious indoctrination within school, though I feel that fostering spiritual awareness outside of the confines of religious doctrine is something that needs consideration. I am very much an advocate of holistic approaches to education, working with the domains of physical, mental, emotional and spiritual development equally - although I find many people do not have a clear concept of what spirituality is outside of religion. To me it is working with and honouring the unseen aspects of our existence, looking at the ways in which we are intrinsically connected to the world around us, and the common threads that bind human experience.

Personally I feel that all children should have the right to explore their own notions of spirit in settings that welcome this, and without governing or dictating how spirituality is explored, I feel that certain tools such as mindfulness meditation could offer a wonderful foundation from which children can explore their own self awareness and develop stablity and self-governance according to their own internal compass of what feels right for them as individuals. What do you guys think?

There have been some interesting reactions in relation to mindfulness in particular, there is a school in the lower South Island that introduced mindfulness meditation as an aspect of their daily curriculum, leading to outrage from some parents of Christian belief systems, some of whom even declared they do not want the devil infiltrating their children's minds! To me this says a huge amount about our culture, if coming into contact with the witness self and exploring the internal world, dialouging with the inner voice - is seen as the devil entering our minds - doesn't that suggest that our own awareness is devilish? Given the endless torrents of media and the glorification of addictive behaviour, our society at large seems to want to repress our awareness to such an extent that we will blindly accept culture as it stands, without looking at the ways in which it could be improved to benefit all participants.

I dunno. Interested to hear what anyone has to say anyway.

And seriously, no pressure whatsoever to confine the discussion to any age group!

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