Alkaloid-increasing methods

[Monk]

The stress=more alks thing is just a theory, but it has its merits. It is possible that alks help protect the plant from certain attackers and that the reaction is fairly non-specific as to what precipitates it. Also, environmental stress often leads to attack from pests which are more likely to be detered by the alkaloids in question per the said theory. Thus, the plant may preemptively produce these compounds to help fight off the eminent attack. Again, just theory, but there is a lot of anecdotal evidence to support it. Then again, I feel that potency in the plants I know best is ~70% genetically predetermined and ~30% environmentally determined. That, of course, does not factor in altering internal chemistry directly.

[chilli]

this may come out a bit fundy hippy but if we expect anything natural and spiritual from such plants maybe its best we dont torture them? scar them ingect them and be a lil more respectful of their lives!

*edit* Erm... sorry, I just noticed the original posts were quite old and about a hundred people had already said the same thing I said.

But I have found something new to take issue with Felonious you NaughtyReverend, was that just a joke about your view of vegetarianism, or do you kind of think it's true?

Edited October 17, 2007 by IllegalBrain

[teonanacatl]

lol too many big replies!!!!

Im more neutral on the matter these days over whether it would increase potency to inject them. It could or it might not but really to me your experiment prooves nothing to me. Here is why:

- there was no control

- you say it was more then any 500mg experience you have heard, but havent had 500mg? set and setting can change this aswell so its not particularly quantitative.

- 2% isnt that insanely high, that was common for icaros stuff extracted at the nook.

- was anything else consumed with it?

Now that said i have not tried it but critically what you did prooves nothing, well done though

Enzymes are easily saturated, I have read too little about the enzymes to comment on where the rate determining step is in mescaline biosynthesis. Tyrosine is shared between metabolic requirements and alkaloid synthesis i have a reference for that so you would be better off going further down the path. Also in regards to equilibrium most enzymes DO act both ways, if the concentration of the product exceeds a certian amount the equilibrium will be pushed the other way.

Eileen isnt that vigorous and who is to say she is potent when grown fast?

Alkaloids are secondary plant metabolites which are defined as products produced that increase the organisms ability to survive and are not part of basic metabolism. They can be produced in response to stress (many marine animals do this) they can be produced preemptively. If underno stress why expend valuable energy making these metabolites? Likewise if understress alkaloids can act as a place to store nutrients aswell as to protect the plant. How do you protect yourself? fight or flight response induced by fright, why wouldnt a plant be different?

If growth was fast that could mean lots of the metabolites required for alkaloid production would be going into growth rather then alkaloid production.

One theory is to deter herbivors yes. And yeah sure shade grown new growth has said to me potent as. Aswell though other alkaloids or compounds might provide the tip with protection, things can change. Tips are the most eaten bit though!!!

Preemptive alkaloids production coudl be said to occur when say the plant expends alot of energy growing some highly nutritous growth and wants to protect it, growth grown in the shade is said to be super potent probably for this reason. Ive addressed it elsewhere.

Seedlings are tasteless, only a little acid really.

There are lots of reasons for more potent plants, a while back i posted some info on inhibitors and activators of some of the enzymes responsible for mescaline synthesis, got no replies.

There are lots of things that can be tested, lol if somone offered a grant i probably would be able to study it all. Same goes for any uni really. If you offer $5000-$10000 that would get people interested. Really though the more practical thing is for people to do the research on their plants and report the findings of them.

[gamma.goblin]

It may not prove anything, however its an indicator that theres a possibility it works. Its not an isolated observation, and is one that could be easily tested by someone who grows a lot of plants...

Tyrosine is the obvious choice for a home grower due to its price and availability. While yeah I would prefer the use of dopamine, such results would be of little use to most of the community.

Sure there are lots of things that can be tested, but this has got to be one of the quickest, simplest and easiest to regulate. Just injecting some liquid into plants occasionally, plants you already have growing...

[rahli]

Could proving someones intent to increase the alkaloids of their cactus (loading it up with l-tyrosine) prove intention to consume or extract the alkaloids?

Maybe not directly but why else would you be trying to increase the alkaloid content?

[Ace]

Not sure if fast growth = lower alkaloids at all... And many lophs have less alkaloid content than Trichocereous...

Nitro - this all comes down to genetics and species. Many lophs have less 'active' alkaloids than trichs simply because they are different species which dont produce mescaline, or only minimal amounts.

It has been said (though is only heresay, not based on solid research) that growing trichs under ideal conditions (therefore creating much more material) will yield less mesc per foot, but the extra material should make up for this. Slower growing specimens are generally thought to contain more alks, but this could also come down to water:flesh ratios (if the plant is very fat with water, then it will weigh more and create the false impression that it may be more potent).

Not sure if older growth is necessarily more potent either

This is thought to be the case - it has been rumoured that older plants are generally much more potent than smaller ones.

seedling... don't know if it's any less potent than an old one

I have tasted for alkaloids on a couple trich/loph seedlings (whilst grafting) and they are almost tasteless. At such a young age (under 1 year) they are mostly water (funny that, being prickly succulents and all ) compared to an older specimen of the same type. I am not sure about larger seedlings - those under 5 years wouldnt be too active, I wouldnt think.

And if alkaloids are there to protect the plant against predators (which is the leading theory no), then wouldn't they be produced in the highed relative concentration when the plant was young, since at that time it would be much more vulnerable to being eaten?

Well, that is a good arguement, but being that seedlings/younger plants are so mild, I guess it proves it wrong and that the alkaloids must have some other use (if any - after all they could just be a by product that hasnt been bred out via evolution). The only way to really back this arguement up (alks for predator repellant) would be if the scarification arguement was proved right.

why would stress = more alkaloids anyway?

It is thought to be similar to scarification (cutting the flesh to replicate predator damage). With increased stress, the alkaloids are thought to increase as a protecting mechanism. But like I mentioned, this is still yet to be proved right or wrong and could very well just be rubbish.

All in all, there is very little solid scientific investigation in this matter - but I think in the end it will all come down to genetics and growth parameters. Only time and testing will tell.

Sorry ladies n gents - that took a tad longer than I thought to reply - there have been a few things that I have responded to that have just been answered before me, but I will keep them as is just to state my opinion

Edited August 9, 2007 by Ace

[gamma.goblin]

And if alkaloids are there to protect the plant against predators (which is the leading theory no), then wouldn't they be produced in the highed relative concentration when the plant was young, since at that time it would be much more vulnerable to being eaten?

Well, that is a good arguement, but being that seedlings/younger plants are so mild, I guess it proves it wrong and that the alkaloids must have some other use (if any - after all they could just be a by product that hasnt been bred out via evolution). The only way to really back this arguement up (alks for predator repellant) would be if the scarification arguement was proved right.

To ensure species survival in harsh times it makes much more sense for the parent to protect itself ahead of its children. The parent is much hardier, and capable of reproducing faster.

[teonanacatl]

On the issue of the tips having more, I think the base should have more as if the tip gets eaten not much is lost but if the base gets eaten alot more material is affected.

It may not prove anything, however its an indicator that theres a possibility it works. Its not an isolated observation, and is one that could be easily tested by someone who grows a lot of plants...

Sure its a good thing to boost interest, but seriously i could proove there is a possibility of me farting on my plants makes them grow faster.

Sure there are lots of things that can be tested, but this has got to be one of the quickest, simplest and easiest to regulate. Just injecting some liquid into plants occasionally, plants you already have growing...

Need to be same clone and need replicates and controls. I would propose it as follows.

>3 controls, these plants are not touched but grown under same conditions.

>3 test plants, injected with compound and grown under same conditions

>3 test control plants, injected with water but no compound and grown under same conditions.

The more plants the better and preferably the same number from each group.

Then you require enough plant material to be able to isolate and quantify the concentration of the alkaloids, that is the hard part as you would need a lot to analyse by a/b extraction.

[gamma.goblin]

but seriously i could proove there is a possibility of me farting on my plants makes them grow faster.

Sure, but at least there is direct sensible chemical theory behind the tyrosine->tyramine/dopa->dopamine->nor-mescaline->mescaline proposal

Preferably there would be more groups in the test, at differing dosage/concentration/frequency, of course this means many more plants...

Can you give a rough estimate on the amount of grafted, un-doped loph material it would take to perform an analysis? Ideally harvested at the earliest practical age, and what would that age be? I dont hold any illusions about perfect figures that can be replicated, just an idea of what you might expect based on your experience.

[teonanacatl]

Sure, but at least there is direct sensible chemical theory behind the tyrosine->tyramine/dopa->dopamine->nor-mescaline->mescaline proposal

But you understand my point yeah?

Preferably there would be more groups in the test, at differing dosage/concentration/frequency, of course this means many more plants...

I would stick to three.

Can you give a rough estimate on the amount of grafted, un-doped loph material it would take to perform an analysis? Ideally harvested at the earliest practical age, and what would that age be? I dont hold any illusions about perfect figures that can be replicated, just an idea of what you might expect based on your experience.

I guess the question is why use lophs, trichocereus are plentiful. I would use min 5 for each group and 1kg fresh of material, injections for a year. Could combine the plants from each group but that doesnt give an idea of variation. Ideally there would be an significant increase in alkaloids, ie present in doped and not present in others but it might not be so clean cut.

It is on my list of things to do but its not near the top.

[gamma.goblin]

I understand your point, but surely you also understand which one is more convincing, and a more worthy experiment

Why use Lophs? Im just assuming on average they are more potent and take up less space Availability isnt really a problem, its quick successful cultivation that concerns me. And your main cacti passion appears to be with grafted Lophs, so I asked the question accordingly. To be honest I hadnt even considered Trichs, if it would produce measureable amounts more quickly for the same grow space, then yeah it would be preferable. I am clueless as to estimating this though.

I would use more than 3 groups because Im more optimistic of results, so I would be hoping to see some kind of relationship.

[teonanacatl]

the idea you guys have is that the enzymes are there therefore giving more substrate will result in greater potency, therefore using a already large trich would proove the point. Just need 9 trichs that are the same clone and of similar age.

[Monk]

Just need 9 trichs that are the same clone and of similar age.

Hmm, that may be feasible. Would 3 clones of ~equal age not be sufficient to support the notion if the difference between them was quite distinct? I'm just considering the ease of obtaining said cuttings, 3 being easier than 9 at 1K apiece. Also, SCB is not as experienced at extractions, nor much interested in the size of this procedure. Would separate bioassays spaced say 1 month apart be sufficient to provide more evidence of the merit of the procedure? Obviously, potency differences would have to be fairly significant to consider this evidence to be valid at all, but it would certainly be much easier for some crazy bastard (not me of course, gamma ) to accomplish. Now the trick is finding a crazy bastard that would be willing to do these bioassays . Oh, and gamma, I think Trichs likely produce more alkaloids per square foot of grow space due to the vertical nature of their biomass. Combine this with the fact that most cactus growing situations are seated on a single plane, and you can see why a trichs might make more sense. Then again, work with what you've got. If several people were to do these smaller experiments, the results would be more reliable due to the overall larger (spread out) populations being worked with. This would be a sort of community experiment where different clone strains and different methods of testing (qualitative and quantitative) were being used based on each members plants/capabilities/tendencies. I know one crazy bastard that will start acquisitions of said clones right away. Who'll see his three and raise him six?

Gamma, you done got me excited about this again

[teonanacatl]

well really you want to use 10, so 3 of each is a huge compremise. An no Bioassays wouldnt cut it, there is nothing quantitative about them really. unless as you say one has none and the other alot.

[Monk]

teo, I realize that bioassays are completely qualitative by nature, hence the request for others to give from their strengths. Likewise, if several people do the experiments, the population grows considerably. I'm just trying to propose ways in which someone with the most modest garden space/plant availability/technology can do their part to test the idea. No, it doesn't fit the bill of modern science, but many things practiced in this community fit more closely with shamanism or alchemy of sorts. In other words, I respect the scientific method for its hard evidence, but many things 'discovered' by it were first tried and tested in more crude fashions and thus deemed questionable by those in the scientific community. Later, they usually say something to the effect of "wow, eating carrots does help your vision!" I guess I'm closer to the medicine man in the loin cloth than the ethnobotanist with his HPLC, but it's easier for some individuals to start there.

[teonanacatl]

yeah but why not put in that tiny bit of extra effort to get the worthy results. It would probably get published in the entheogen review or other journal if people want recognition. It would be good if several people did experiments but they would have to be considered different populations, would give nice comparative results though.

If anyone asks too the injection of tyrosine is to monitor how much tyrosine is used in metabolisma nd how much is used in alkaloid synthesis.

Seems people want this done and I have the resorces, need to do some more research first though. Im expecting a thesis i bought to arrive soon which I think many people will find interesting and the studies may have already been done in this report. So lets wait, likewise people should research to see what has been done in relation to injections, I will sift through my info and report back with anything interesting.

Edited August 9, 2007 by teonanacatl

[gamma.goblin]

3 being easier than 9 at 1K apiece.

wtf? 1k = $1000? What am I missing here?

[nitrogen]

This is an interesting discussion!

A couple more ideas...

1.Why does any plant produce the nutrients it does to begin with? What are all the flavanoids and vitamins doing in fruits and vegetables?

2. I've read somewhere that grafter lophs were just as potent as non-grafted lophs, despite the latter growing much much faster...

3. Do the alkaloids in cactus really deter predators? Snails eat the things up, so do all sorts of little bugs... Why wouldn't all cacti (especially the non-spiny ones) produce alkaloids as defense? In other words, the alkaloids may have no relation to the function of detering predators...

4. Could the alkaloids be doing something for the cactus that we don't understand, like electrolytes do in out own bodies?

--------

And finally, a fun theory that may or may not be ridiculous:

Maybe the cacti produce psychedelic alkaloids for survival - but not to deter predators, but because they know humans will love them for it and will henceforth keep them safely cultivated in environments much friendlier than where they came from... The really potent one's will have there lineage assured and cared for...

[Ace]

Maybe the cacti produce psychedelic alkaloids for survival - but not to deter predators, but because they know humans will love them for it and will henceforth keep them safely cultivated in environments much friendlier than where they came from... The really potent one's will have there lineage assured and cared for...

That has long been thought for the Psilocybe genus of mushrooms. Personally, I think it is a bit ridiculous - what would have happened if humans had developed slightly differently and simply didnt experience the hallucinogenic effects? The mushrooms/cacti dont have brains or anything to suggest that they are capable of consciousness (other than a few people who might think mescaline visions are their way of communicating), so how could they decide to produce these chems for our use and their survival?

I guess another species (such as dogs or bears, etc) could have gotten high and developed a consciousness (and religion) via the use of these plants/fungi and evolved into something more advanced than humans, but in all seriousness, this is just too far fetched and will never be proven right or wrong.

Could the alkaloids be doing something for the cactus that we don't understand, like electrolytes do in out own bodies?

IMO, they are just something that has developed by accident with no real purpose. It doesnt appear that they are used for predator deterrant (like you mentioned - plenty of animals still consume them), and it isnt likely that they are there simply for our benefit (why would a plant want to be consumed for another species enjoyment?). It could have quite likely developed via environmental conditions (e.g. intense sunlight metabolised sugars/carbs into unusual compounds (alks) but didnt hinder growth, so have still remained a part of these species to this day).

It could also be something similar to our appendix - something that would have been useful in our ancestors (earlier species), but has just survived to this day because there was no need to get rid of it (even though it has no current use).

[teonanacatl]

I should state first that this injection thing was tried by people like ion at the nook both injection and absorption with DMSO, it was their opinions and testing that lead me to believe it would do nothing for potency.

1.Why does any plant produce the nutrients it does to begin with? What are all the flavanoids and vitamins doing in fruits and vegetables?

They produce them because some enzyme doing another function malfunctions or changes and acts on a new substrate, natural selection kicks in and good adaptations are proliferated. Flavanoids show antioxidant properties thus they reduce cellular damage due to radicals, a good thing. Fruits that are adapted to be eaten will contain things that are nice to eat.

2. I've read somewhere that grafter lophs were just as potent as non-grafted lophs, despite the latter growing much much faster...

Some say they are some say they arnt. Also depends on your cultivation conditions of both plants.

3. Do the alkaloids in cactus really deter predators? Snails eat the things up, so do all sorts of little bugs... Why wouldn't all cacti (especially the non-spiny ones) produce alkaloids as defense? In other words, the alkaloids may have no relation to the function of detering predators...

Do the cacti that are eaten contain significant alkaloids is the better question! There is very little reason for a plant in cultivation to be stressed. Many cacti do produce alkaloids and other compounds. Other alkaloid production or secondary compounds can provide attractive purposes to certain insects which serquester the compounds and use them as defence for them selves, the plant might get pollinated by such an insect so it is a symbiotic relationship (eg aristolochia and the bird wings).

4. Could the alkaloids be doing something for the cactus that we don't understand, like electrolytes do in out own bodies?

Quite possibly somthing we dont understand. We understand electrolytes in our bodies, K, Ca, Na, Cl all play vital roles in maintaining cell potentials and are important in cellular signalling.

Maybe the cacti produce psychedelic alkaloids for survival - but not to deter predators, but because they know humans will love them for it and will henceforth keep them safely cultivated in environments much friendlier than where they came from... The really potent one's will have there lineage assured and cared for...

I seriously doubt this is the case for mescaline, the dose is way to high, maybe for other plants. It is possible, its a case many people believe in or want to be true but I doubt it. There are no reports of cultivation of peyote (there are for san pedro though).

[teonanacatl]

would be good to try with lophs and trichs, means i can kill 2 birds with one stone and grow hydro lophs

[phloom]

there you have it people, nature has revealed a portion of herself through an intermediary know as teonanacatl. cool...

i thought i had an opinion on this about 24 hours ago....now im not so sure. Think ive learned more here than I did all last semester.

the idea of loading up cactus with creatine seems wrong to me, maybe 'roids will be better?

[teonanacatl]

There is some evidence to support the notion that the older parts are more potent, that is that one interpretation of this paper :

CACTUS ALKALOIDS. LI. LACK OF MESCALINETRANSLOCATION IN GRAFTED TRICHOCEREUS

S. PUMMANGUanRd AJ. L. MCLAUGHLINR. C. SCHIFFERDECKER

J. Nat. Prod.

To sumerise they grafted a spach to a pach and let it grow for 10 months then analysed for mescaline by TLC and quantitated by GC. They found no mescaline in the spach, mescaline in the pach, and no mescaline in the roots of the pach.

Interpretations are as follows:

1) Mescaline was translocated through the graft and that the spach destroyed it.

2) Mescaline couldnt be translocated though it was tried.

3) Mescaline is synthesised and not transported throughout the plant.

I like 1 and 3 but I believe that 3 is the answer. Too quote them

In the Cactaceae there may be very little, if any, vertical alkaloid translocation; alkaloids are apparently made and stored in situ in the aerial parts, likely near the epidermis. From this limited evidence, we suggest that the production of toxic or hallucinogenic scions or fruits, by grafting harmless cacti on alkaloidiferous root stocks is unlikely.

Where they their info from im not sure but this is exactly what I think. This would mean that the older the tissue the more is accumulated relative to younger tissue on the same plant, this does not mean you can compare plants or species.

I would like to get my hands on as much of the lophophora and trichocereus journal articles i can, alot appear in Lloydia (apparently the precursor to J. Natural products), I would like to add a section to the book discussing the analysis in the papers. I will post a list of articles I cant get when ive done some more searching and would like it if people could help out if they have access to the resorces.

there you have it people, nature has revealed a portion of herself through an intermediary know as teonanacatl. cool...

hahaha ill take that as acompliment, but people should never believe everything they hear and should search out the truth for themselves, its all about the journey

[teonanacatl]

To further continue the discussion on slower vs faster growing I report the findings of

INHIBITION OF PLANT GROWTH BY PHENETHYLAMINES AND TETRAHYDROISOQUINOLINES

N. B. MANDAVJA., F . WORLEY~

J. Nat. Prod.

di- and trioxygenated compounds, dopamine-HC1, trichocerine-MeI, 3-demethyl mescaline- HC1 and decarboxypeyonine showed the greatest activity while the others showed moderate activity; replacement of the hydroxy group with a methoxy group showed no apparent effect on activity.

There was also isoquinolines which showed activity. To extrapolate their last point, addition of a methoxy to 3-demethyl mescaline- HC1 --> mescaline. Whilst such a role is not prooven to occur in cacti its quite possible that production of these alkaloids serves the dual purpose of slowing down growth and decreasing predation. This would also add credability to claims of slower cacti being more potent % wise, ie lophophora at 2%.

[teonanacatl]

Further more

Quoting trout because I could not obtain

Siniscalco Gigliano, G. (1983) Bolletino Chimico

Farmaceutico 122: 499-504. “La Mescalina in Lophophora

Coult. Ed in Altre Cactaceae”

reports of various loph plants under different conditions

0.1% well irrigated

0.93% grafted

upto 2.74% after 6 months cultivation under dry conditions, cultivated in italy

Trout also reports specimums from Coahuila to be more potent then san luis potsoi. (Todd 1969)

Part of the biosynthesis of mescaline involves methylation of phenolic groups on the aromatic ring, this is done by O-methyltransferases (enzymes that transfer a methyl to a oxygen). Basmadjian and Paul (1971) isolated and concentrated this enzyme and found some interesting information.

The enzyme was inhibited by Ag+, Cu2+ and PCMB (P-chloromercuribenzoate) and stimulated by Dithiothreitol (DTT) and B-mercaptoethanol. EDTA, Mg2+ and thiourea had no effect.

Another interesting fact is that the enzyme wont methylate a molecule anymore when the 4-position is methylated (gives methoxy) on PEA's or the 7-position on isoquinolines.

Reference:

Stumpf, P.K., Conn, E.E. "The biochemistry of plants- secondary metabolites vol 7"

Edited August 10, 2007 by teonanacatl