Do we want and/or need religion?

[gomaos]

If you were born on a desert island and grew up alone, you would not be able to speak, have very limited understanding of mathematics and would have no use of technology, possibly not even learn how to use fire, certainly not invent the wheel on your own and pretty much be a wild mammal like the rest of the animals on that island.

hmmmm......... that's certainly worth meditating over.... i don't have an automatic response to that...

all the examples you used earlier don't impress me very much... I do have a strong gut feeling that the majority of humans should be "good"

...animals aren't good or evil, just ignorant, stupid...

for example, a cat torturing it's prey before eating it (or not eating it) isn't evil, just ignorant...

but it's pretty hard to teach a cat not to do that sort of thing, if not impossible...

btw what's a desert island?

An island in the desert (oasis) or an island with a desert on it (in which case one would starve to death anyway)...

it's true that humans who grow up isolated, lonely and without love are very likely to turn out to be... well at least pretty violent... which is understandable... I mean rather people who grew in a "satisfying" environment with good people are likely to turn out good too... but all in all this needs more meditation on my behalf...

I have a couple more things to say

re Buddhism: Yes I have been "flirting" with it for many years now for above mentioned reasons,

on the other hand, in countries where buddism is actually a state religion it gets abused and twisted and turned inside out just like any other state religion...

I'm referring to Thailand and japan for example... but I won't go into that now...

re dogams:

"All dogmas are wrong!"

Since that sounds like a dogma it can't be right...

[Guest onemind]

An island in the desert (oasis) or an island with a desert on it (in which case one would starve to death anyway)...

You know exactly what i'm saying.

all the examples you used earlier don't impress me very much...

Why not? They are all fact.

I do have a strong gut feeling that the majority of humans should be "good"

You're gut is wrong There is no good or bad, just wise and unwise. My pet dog is very loyal, loving and good natured, just don't go near him when he is eating a bone Same with people, all can be pushed into violence, murder ect, but that is hard for a pampered middle classed baby boomer to understand who was brought up in a civilised, western, christian society:)

...animals aren't good or evil, just ignorant, stupid...

Humans are animals. Unless of course you dont think evolution happened and we are beings created in gods image No offense but your concept of good and evil ect sounds more christian than anything else I think the internet is a good reflection of humanity. 1 Billion people expressing their minds on computers and its 90% porn. Humans are on heat just like the animal worl, this is just all natures method of procreation and we are a mere link on the chain.

re Buddhism: Yes I have been "flirting" with it for many years now for above mentioned reasons,

on the other hand, in countries where buddism is actually a state religion it gets abused and twisted and turned inside out just like any other state religion...

Thats not the buddhas fault or buddhisms, a religion cant be judged by its ignorant and greedy followers or by the mere struggle for survival that every human society and political system faces. Buddhism is a method of mental development and has nothing to do with the feeding, watering and sheltering of humans so comparing buddhism with politics is stupid. The buddha said - "I teach only suffering, and how to end it".

Further more, you need to put christianity in perspective. It was brought into the world which was believed to be flat with slavery and the most horrendous human happenings wide spread. Christianity paved the way for a structured, moral civililsation which in turn led to freeing up time to study science which led to the decline of religion and a more enlightened age. Christianity served its purpose and it is true, those still clinging to the past are causing strife but that is just evolutionary growing pains. To state that christianity is just useless crap is just ignorant of history and just the ego being vain claiming it is smarter and wiser than 2.5 billion human beings who are christian, muslim or jew.

If shamins had their way we would all still be living in primative societies believing in witch craft, weaing loin cloths ect ect. At the very least chrristianity led to the civilized world that gave us science. I'm all for drugs but any fool can take drugs, it doesn't make them smart or wise.

Edited October 15, 2006 by onemind

[-YT-]

"If shamins had their way we would all still be living in primative societies believing in witch craft, weaing loin cloths ect ect. At the very least chrristianity led to the civilized world that gave us science."

Thats a bit of a brash statement. If you delve deeper in these so called "Primitive" societies you will soon realise beyond face value how sophisticated they are and in tune with the earth and their surroundings taking only what they needed and didnt abuse and consume in the overly greedy way civilised society does... and any arguement on how much we have advanced scientifically is a genuine laugh, people are still dieing more so then ever the Earth is slowly starting to change on us because of our destruction.. Men in power are mad and consumed by it blatantly lieing to millions everyday, saturated with psychic pollution on how to live dress and act... The Tribal society is/was not perfect offcourse but in many ways was far more advanced in ways we cant understand because of current perceptions and mind sets.

Shamans dont overtly want any way, they are loners-outcasts of society who usually live alone or within thier own group. There bent is to heal, divine shine light and percieve the inconcievable worlds that is men/womens given right. No striving on there part is to undermine social order/politics just beacause they live in the world of men doesnt mean they actively seek to be apart of or see any interest in it. Some do have such a bent towards worldy ways but then would they be a true shaman/healer or just a charlatan..

[Guest onemind]

Thats a bit of a brash statement.

I know, i certainly did not mean to offend and personally dont know enough about it to comment. But i do know that when i get a cold or some other well known disease, i will probably visit a western medical practioner before going to see my local witch doctor to cast the evil spirits out

Shamans dont overtly want any way, they are loners-outcasts of society who usually live alone or within thier own group

That is fair enough but not everyone can be a shamin so their path is for the lone wolves and not a way designed for the masses.

Edited October 15, 2006 by onemind

[-YT-]

"That is fair enough but not everyone can be a shamin so their path is for the lone wolves and not a way designed for the masses."

I totally agree, i think certain people are just born with certain dispositions toward such a path. But that doesnt mean anyone cant still grow and make friendships with plants, and continue to use and learn from them and grow and change within themselves as a human being and spiritually and therein lies the beauty

[narayan]

Intersting thread.

In my opinion:

- Science describes what we can explain through direct observation, religion describes what we cannot. Religion has been used by cultures to explain what they are unable to understand.

For example a less technologically advanced society used religion to describe the creation of the things around them they observed, ie a giant animal spirit may have died and where its body fell created a mountain range. In our western society we have discovered through scientific observation that rock outcrops can be pushed up through the earths surface by tectonic activity creating mountain ranges.

I don't think anyone has the right to tell others what they want or need as far as religion goes. Everyone has there own reasons for following a religion or for not following a religion. Its such a subjective thing. Some people need a structured and authoritative set or rules and morality to stop them from doing bad things while others search for rules and morality that applies best for them. Other people find solace and a sense of identity in the culture and traditions that a religion that they where born into provides.

I myself try to take what applies to me from different religions, belief systems and worldviews and not expect any of these or my own beliefs to be perfect or divine truths.

[Guest onemind]

Well said

[gomaos]

If shamins had their way we would all still be living in primative societies believing in witch craft, weaing loin cloths

that would be cool...

I always wanted to live in a loincloth-society... no more sores between the legs like from those damn pants and trousers... horrible invention... I always wanted to be a scot with nothing under the kilt, oh well...

but really what's so good about modern society?

Buddhism is a method of mental development

I know, I spent time in an ashram, and continued to practise yoga for a few years, then reached my goal (set by myself, stupidly it was another marriage, which also lasted only a few years) and stopped doing it...

...

...

freedom of religion: great, as long as it includes having NO religion....

[Guest onemind]

but really what's so good about modern society?

Not dying at aged 8 from common diease thanks to modern medicine based on science. Preteen girls not being dished out as sex slaves by the dirty old men that run the tribe. Not living among canabals that believe evil spirits are responsible for someones death then eat that someone. ect ect.

I think some people have idealised tribal cultures because of their drug use practices. I agree they have some good times, insightful moments ect ect because of their use of plants but there are still a ton of problems. Nature is no garden of eden, its tooth and claw, blood and bone.

I'm not saying modern society is perfect because as we all know, it has its fair share of problems but i'm not deluded enough to think all our progress and ideals haven't led to a better quality of life and personally, i'd rather be living here in oz than in some primative tribe in the congo, running around naked waiting to go extint because modern man is transforming their environment.

I realize i am dealing with some hardcore greenies here who are bitter at the christian world for their bad time at sunday school but i am just weighing things up realisticaly. There is no "perfect" syem and like someone said here, just pick the good parts from different systems, if it works use it, if not, ditch it.

[Μορφέας]

I believe in Jesus being man kinds saviour and my life is for his cause.

Look into your hearts and honestly tell me that god doesnt exist. just look at life, its proof of his existance. The complexity and millions of presice interactions between all life in ecosystems is mind blowing.

Not to mention that the theory of evolution cannot prove many things, such as the flagella of bacterium and many others.

Or that the combinations of enzymes in the body is infinate, or that all molecules to do with life are right handed (a molecule can be formed in two ways imagine a left hand and right hand, the order of atoms in all life is right handed)..

we'll all know soon enough.

[Guest onemind]

So what you are saying is that humans are so complex, they could not have just appeared as a result of evolution? So humans are so complex that they must have been created?

My question to you is, is god more complex than man? And if so, would you say that he is so complex that he could not of just appeared out of no where, something must have created him

If god doesn't need a creator, neither does man so your logic and argument is flawed.

I've looked into my heart, sunrises and babies eyes and felt all warm and tingly, but it is quite a leap to draw the conclusion that jesus is my saviour.

[occidentalis]

I'm going to be a picky bastard here:

Look into your hearts and honestly tell me that god doesnt exist. just look at life, its proof of his existance. The complexity and millions of presice interactions between all life in ecosystems is mind blowing.

I can't tell whether you are arguing for a strong creationist viewpoint or simply for the existance of god/a god, but either way the argument from complexity is just not a valid one. Life's complexity is proof only that life is complex. It is a system unfolding itself. Some call that process of unfolding god, others don't. To me that distinction doesn't matter. What matters is that the process of manifestation that is ocurring as the universe is observed and participated in with true reverence. The attempt to encapsulate that reverence in a fixed set of rules called a religion seems to me to be a bit of a waste of time - the universe is a changing place, let's try not to create too many rules that prevent us from changing and growing along with it.

Not to mention that the theory of evolution cannot prove many things, such as the flagella of bacterium and many others.

I suspect that there may be a language barrier here, so I won't be too tough on your semantics, but the theory of evolution by natural selection doesn't need to prove anything. It is an attempt to explain what is already visible, and it is a much more plausible attempt than what is offered by western monotheistic religion. To find a few small flaws in it and claim that these are proof that a creator god exists is just ridiculous.

or that all molecules to do with life are right handed (a molecule can be formed in two ways imagine a left hand and right hand, the order of atoms in all life is right handed)..

Nucleotide bases are all right handed, amino acids are all left handed. As I understand it, a DNA molecule can only function if all the bases are of the same chirality. The last common ancestor for all life had right handed DNA, therefore we all do. I can't see how this is proof of god's existance or otherwise.

[gomaos]

Look into your hearts and honestly tell me that god doesnt exist. just look at life, its proof of his existance.

if i look into my heart and deep into my mind/conscious or unconscious, I am deeply aware of spirit, of potentially endless spiritual energy in raw form...

I can imagine the whole existence and history of humankind, animalkind and the plant kingdom stored away in my DNA, accessible when needed and/or by psychedelics... in fact it's more than imagining, it's knowing that it is there...

If I wanted to, and wasn't so scared of it, I could cross over into the spirit world with the help of Dmt or similar, and see and hear and feel and smell all sorts of spirits...

I know they are there because of the chemical reactions happening at that moment inside my brain...

but i also know they are there for real, in own of countless universes similar to our own...

there's an unimaginable number of spirits floating around in many different dimensions, I know they are there, I have seen them, others have, we all know they are there.

But how many people have actually met the boss, some old god-dude with a white beard and so on.

he wouldn't even fit in to that picture...

So, we know the universe is endless, goes on forever, both in our dimension, and in countless other dimensions...

but the one power who's in charge of everything and therefor must be obeyed, or else we must obey some crappy old book with hundred year-old rules, no thanks, that sounds like rubbish to me, and it definitely isn't in my heart when I look.

I don't need a book or some other stupid religion to tell me what to do and to believe.

I don't need to believe.

i know.

[transDiMenTional]

nicely played Gom! my sentiments exactly

Edited October 16, 2006 by transDiMenTional

[Guest onemind]

Yes, experience is the way, there is no need for blind faith.

Well said

[-YT-]

"I think some people have idealised tribal cultures because of their drug use practices. I agree they have some good times, insightful moments ect ect because of their use of plants but there are still a ton of problems. Nature is no garden of eden, its tooth and claw, blood and bone."

Seems like a remark aimed towards Gom and myself.

Ithink some people have idealised Sports (which is a vicarious form of tribalism) because of their alcohol use lol . Taking statements at face value really lets one down. Its not just taken as some ideology that sounds kool to talk about when your mates come around. For the most part of the people i know and have met take it as a way of living, of experience and acting. And with new outlooks, experiences and actions brings new relfections as one grows and flows with life.

I agree Nature is hostile and savage at times and yet is full of amazing beauty and mystery. Two sides to every coin no use only focusing on one side of it.

[Northern Gnome]

Just found this thread, my 2.5 cents: Spirituality: always good.... Religion: can be very very BAD.

[gomaos]

I don't need to believe.

i know

having said that, I don't have a clue what happens after death.

Nor does anyone else. Eternal rest would be great but that seems to be too easy. I sort of prepare myself for torture and misery and strife and eventual re-birth (having to go through all this trial and failure again... very unnerving...) but perhaps there is also endless bliss on "the other side".

Sorta like an ideal mushroom-dosage; you just sit, relax, enjoy, bliss out... that'd be cool...

Ithink some people have idealised Sports (which is a vicarious form of tribalism) because of their alcohol use lol

sooo true, just wanted to see it in fat print...

re nature: totally agree with young tripper: yes very dangerous, even lethal, but also source of eternal bliss, full of amazing beauty and mystery;

there's no better place to be tripping than nature... beats ANY room, even the most luxurious...

that is, nature that doesn't wanna eat you just then....

[gomaos]

I don't need to believe.

i know

having said that, I don't have a clue what happens after death.

Nor does anyone else. Eternal rest would be great but that seems to be too easy. I sort of prepare myself for torture and misery and strife and eventual re-birth (having to go through all this trial and failure again... very unnerving...) but perhaps there is also endless bliss on "the other side".

Sorta like an ideal mushroom-dosage; you just sit, relax, enjoy, bliss out... that'd be cool...

Ithink some people have idealised Sports (which is a vicarious form of tribalism) because of their alcohol use lol

sooo true, just wanted to see it in fat print...

re nature: totally agree with young tripper: yes very dangerous, even lethal, but also source of eternal bliss, full of amazing beauty and mystery;

there's no better place to be tripping than nature... beats ANY room, even the most luxurious...

that is, nature that doesn't wanna eat you just then....

re the poll: a pattern emerges: approx 20 % say they need and want religion, 80 per cent don't....

which is fine with me I'm tolerant enough to accept those 20 percent, let them do what they want, as long as they don't try to force us to do the same thing...

I wish the rest of society was so tolerant...

i.e. when they poll whether cannabis should be legal or not;

it's almost like 50% want it legal the rest don't...

yet it remains totally illegal, since those who want it to remain illegal are totally INTOLERANT of the rest of us and rather would see us in jail then freely do what we like, and what harms no-one... (if smokin makes you sick stop smokin!!!)

Edited October 18, 2006 by gomaos

[chilli]

Dont you think you're being a little naive? For a start, i dont believe in "evil", just ignorance...

There is no evil, just ignorance.

Someone's certainly being naive, and possibly ignorant as well.

[gomaos]

Yeah i think you got a point.

For example: Hitler was evil because he had people tortured and killed for no valid reason. (oh well there's no valid reason for torture anyway so that's evil every time...)

Same applies to Bush.

And to Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein etc etc....

People who go around murdering and killing, are evil.

Plus those people who make them.

and so on

Edited October 18, 2006 by gomaos

[Guest onemind]

Well, i think evil and ignorant are just labels. Since evil is largely a christian concept i dont accept that some people are just flat out "evil" and the rest are somehow pure chosen ones

it's almost like 50% want it legal the rest don't...

yet it remains totally illegal,

I think any poll on a forum with a user base that grows and smokes plants is going to be biased and hardly a representation of the majority. The fact is, the majority of people on earth dont smoke pot or do illegal drugs..

[Guest onemind]

Hitler was evil because he had people tortured and killed for no valid reason

He had a valid reason. He was ignorant to think jews were less than human dogs that were responsible for jesus's death and all the trouble in the world and was ignorant enough to think they were plotting to control the financial sector of the entire earth in order to rule the world. If you sat down with hitler you would find a human being who truly believed what he was doing, and discover he was just ignorant Unless of course you're christian and believe he was possessed by the devil and god never chose him to be one of his holy servants ;)

I stand by my statement that there is no such thing as an "evil" external force that guides people to do unholy things. But feel free to disagree, i just think it is ironic from people who claim to "know" and dont need faith that would believe such a thing.

[Hagakure]

i dont beleive in an external evil force either.

but i dont beleive that ignorance is the sole cause behind evil actions.

some people may know all about the actions they are doing, why they are wrong etc but may still find them fun.

can you elaborate what people have to be ignorant of to commit acts considered by the majority to be evil?

general ignorance isnt enough IMHO

and i think the poll gom reffered to was of the general population. you set up a survey like that in this place and you aint gonna get a 50 50 split, i know that for sure.

[Guest onemind]

True, i am not talking about general day to day ignorance, i am talking about a genuine deluded view that something that is wrong is taken to be right. Whereas the majority, not suffering from that particular delusion can clearly see those acts are wrong.

Are you telling me that every nazi that fought for hitler were evil monsters? They were just as human aas you or I that got caught up in a mass delusion of hatred and fear. We all know how one negative person can bring down the whole mood, when someone like that, with confidence and strenght gains a position of power, extreme chaos reins. Its not satan pulling the strings of the meat puppets, just human delusion in progress.

1000 years ago everyone knew the world was flat, they were all wrong. Humans are capable of mass delusion, not mass evil. Just wrong view in my opinion.

But hey, lets start a topic on how deluded christians are and then end up spending the whole time preaching christian concepts, good and evil, heaven and hell, soon you'll be saying jesus walked on water.

What i am talking about is human beings taking complete responsibility for their actions and not blaming it on evil forces.

If a person truly is in contact with ultimate reality 24/7 then they would automatically experience connection and compassion for others, not kill, steal or do anything that causes others to suffer. Not because they are following rules out of fear of hell or bad karma but because they genuinely know what life is and how to act.

Unfortunately, 99.999999999% of humans are not 100% enlightened and are in various states of ignorance which leads to acts that to an enlightened being would seem deluded or "evil". When i say ignorance is the cause of suffering, i am saying ignorance of ultimate reality.

Edited October 18, 2006 by onemind