Trichocereus Valida

[Bretloth]

Had the pleasure of visiting Fields cactus farm today and thought i'd take some pics of one the more mysterious cacti. Mr Fields is an amazing man, very friendly and generous. Please do not steal from this good honest man. You'd be surprised how willing to sell cuts at the most reasonable prices in the country (by far), he is. This is probably my favorite cacti, just love this beast. Please don't ask me for a cut, will have some on offer at the end of autumn or next season. Enjoy

Edited November 30, 2011 by Bretloth

[Foo]

Thanks for sharing, i think the position of this cactus is as interesting as the cactus itself

[M S Smith]

I was expecting something more along the lines of T. tacaquirensis (aka T. werdermannianus, T. taquimbalensis), and a little less like T. terscheckii (of which the flowers are a dead giveaway, even unopened).

~Michael~

[Bretloth]

Robert told he his father put it there 40 to 50 years ago when small to protect from frost one winter, and that's where she stayed. The only part of the shed that is still standing is this end supported by the cacti. It's an amazing site

[Bretloth]

I was expecting something more along the lines of T. tacaquirensis (aka T. werdermannianus, T. taquimbalensis), and a little less like T. terscheckii (of which the flowers are a dead giveaway, even unopened).

~Michael~

 

T werd, Taquimbalensis are more chiloensis related as far as I can tell (i'm no expert mind you). Valida seems like an intermediatte between the tersheckii/werd complex and the san pedro complex to me, or atleast more that way aligned than the others in it's complex.

Edited November 30, 2011 by Bretloth

[Bretloth]

Here's some of the similar plants out there for comparison.

[Bretloth]

My Valida cut is flowering, so I thought i'd take some pics seeing as though the mother plant wasn't flowering when I was out at Fields. Surprised it is still flowering and not aborting being a cutting lying on my outside couch, but there you go. Not going to argue

[incognito]

looks similar to my seed grown kk validus specimens. would love to get em out there, currently propagating the bejesus out of em.

EDITED BY MODERATOR! NO DISCUSSION ABOUT POTENCY OR INGESTION!

Edited December 11, 2011 by Evil Genius

[Bretloth]

I'm going to make another cut of the one I got, hopefully get some pups to pass along in a few months. Slow grower so will be waiting forever for it to pup by itself. These plants need to get out there. Maybe we can do a swap down the track bro? Always after more diversity. Glad to see others are growing some of the rarer trichos.

EDITED BY MODERATOR! NO DISCUSSION ABOUT POTENCY OR INGESTION!

Edited December 11, 2011 by Evil Genius

[adios]

Thats so cool!I have never seen a valida that large It seems impossible to find someone who would offer a cutting these days.

[bℓσωηG]

im still waiting for a piece of this one, hint,hint

[Bretloth]

Will be getting it out there. Collected some pollen for PD to make some hybrids with, going try one myself on a non pc pach I've got that's going to flower, got some immature flower buds on the valida cut i'm hopeing don't abort, bit of luck get some nice bridgesii pollen from somewhere to cross with it that way too. Got a cut of both clones so eventually there will be pure bred seed as well. Have to be patient for cuts with this one though, slow grower, took it 50 odd years to get that big. Not surprised most don't want to give any of theirs up, bloody lucky Mr Fields did, but I've been out there abit and developed abit of a relationship with him, top bloke. I figure It's not going to hurt me time and growth wise anyway, my big cut has a bend that will probably take a year or two to straighten before it grows much anyway. So best to cut off the bend leaving a nice straight tip, callous both, root my tip cut in a pride of place big massive fuck off pot, and plant the bend mid cut to get some pups out there me thinks

Edited December 14, 2011 by Bretloth

[tripsis]

Robert told me both plants are the same clone. You sure they're different?

I'm not so sure that it's actually all that slow growing. The one under the shed is old, but all that new growth above the roof is from the last three years. Until it busted through that roof it had been growing in full shade totally sheltered from rain. Far from ideal conditions.

I had planned on being there the same day you, Snu and Trout were there, but when he told me others were going to be there at the same time, I changed it to the day after, only to find out the next day just who it was that was there the day before! Would have been very interesting indeed hearing what Trout had to say about all the Trichos there.

[Bretloth]

Shit. I just assumed they where different clones to be honest. I'll have to double check next time I'm out there, cheers mate. I think large amounts of material will grow reasnobly quickly but the small cut I got off him last year has hardly grown at all. Much slower than most of my others. But of course that's based on my limited time and understanding of and with the plant. Definetely needs to get out there and studied more. Snu has a cut now so someone with far more knowledge and expertise will be on the job. Was truly a priveledge to spend the day out there with them. Really genuinely nice, humble awesome blokes. Learnt alot to say the least. Very thankfull.

Edited December 14, 2011 by Bretloth

[Bretloth]

Hopefully when enough people are growing this plant we can get enough data points and perspectives to make definate conclusions about it. And hopefully those people post about it here. Please keep in mind i'm no expert and have only about 4-5 years cacti experience, and everything I say is in my opinion only, however unqualified it is. Just enthusiastic lol!

[tripsis]

How long did that cut take to root? Cuttings of the larger species can take more than a year to root, so are pretty slow to get going. Don't know if validus is the same as the others, such as terscheckii.

Not sure if you were aware, but Robert has never had a fruit on his validus. Plenty of flowers, but never any fruit. Considering how close it is to that pachanoi, along with the multitude of other Trichos nearby, it's quite a surprising fact.

[Bretloth]

Not sure how long it took to root, never dug it up. Hasn't really grown at all, just straightened ( as it was a bend )more than anything, only started doing that this month. Been in the pot since last march I think, so around nine months. Was kept inside near a radiator over winter to hopefully stop it going dormant. A few other people I've talked to that have this plant, not sure whether from the same source or not all say it's a slow grower for them. Planted other cuts of varying cacti and sizes at the same time and all of them are well ahead now. It's strange he has never gotten fruit from it before, but I don't think he's actively tried either, will have to double check that. That pach just next to it set fruit last year, might have been from the Valida or who knows but he sold it as pach seed, someone took all of it, thousands apparently, when I asked Robert about it he thought it was self set which surprised me. He doesn't seem to have much natural hybridisation out there though, just the WK echinopsis tricho hybrid, another echinopsis tricho hybrid and the knuthianus x most likely roseii clump. Everything else is what it was to begin with pretty much I think. I'm pretty sure Trout will be following up on all the collection data and everything for what Robert has. No doubt he will be passing that along down the track

Edited December 14, 2011 by Bretloth

[Quixote]

Robert told he his father put it there 40 to 50 years ago when small to protect from frost one winter, and that's where she stayed. The only part of the shed that is still standing is this end supported by the cacti. It's an amazing site

 

Poetic justice. First, the shed helps the cactus in its young age, then the cactus helps the shed in its old age.

[PD.]

collection data

Mention those two words to Robert and see what he says lol.

Good to hear Snu and Trout got out to see Robert though, dunno how they will go in regards to Roberts naming of some plants as he is a stubborn old bugger in that area lol. I only hope they quizzed him about the PC pach stand he has there (under the she oaks), i have mentioned a few times Robert said it was one of the first imports from Sth Am prior to 1920 but for some reason ppl forget this on their never ending quest for the origins of the "mysterious" pc clone, dont know why its so hard to believe and so easily dismissed as a plant/clone from sth america. Shit, even if it aint what some think "Should" be pachanoi as described, that it comes from the motherland is enough for this lil pigeon. Hopefully trout got the dna samples i was too poor and lazy to go and get for him My oh my, that could be a pandoras box one wished was never opened lol "Rosei is genetically more related to cuzcoensis than peruvianus and pc pach is more peruvianus than pachanoi, my god, knuthianus is more elephant than an elephant"

IME the validus is slowish growing, cant say 100% though as the main cutting is in a garden with other leafy plants so often gets almost covered. This season it has been kept clear of foliage but is grinding along slowy. Will have more to put in better positions later this year/early next. Hope to get the pollen from bret and do a cross or 3, see how it takes.

[Bretloth]

I think Robert still has all the old catalogues and records etc for his plants, so should be plenty to keep Trout busy there. Defenitly quizzed him about pc, will be hearing more about that soon i'd imagine. Yeah, it's from south america, it's an acceptable form of pachanoi. Weak or not, it's a fucking pach lol. Got some pollen sitting in the freezer for you PD

[bit]

Thanks for the pics! I think I have a much better idea what this thing is now!!

[M S Smith]

Good to hear Snu and Trout got out to see Robert though, dunno how they will go in regards to Roberts naming of some plants as he is a stubborn old bugger in that area lol. I only hope they quizzed him about the PC pach stand he has there (under the she oaks), i have mentioned a few times Robert said it was one of the first imports from Sth Am prior to 1920 but for some reason ppl forget this on their never ending quest for the origins of the "mysterious" pc clone, dont know why its so hard to believe and so easily dismissed as a plant/clone from sth america.

 

PD, not to be argumentative, but I don't recall anyone dismissing the PC as from South America, but rather only looking to confirm its origins, whether that be from natural populations in Peru, Bolivia, Ecuador, or some private collection in these countries or elsewhere. Certainly you don't want to dismiss this as having some value.

Also, whether or not the PC has it's origins in South America says nothing about it being T. pachanoi, unless T. pachanoi were the only Trichocereus species there, which we all know it is not. As I pointed out to Trout, and of which he discusses in part in his Pachanoi or pachanot? , he also questions whether or not the PC is T. pachanoi. He also seems to have leanings towards my suggestion that the PC is closer in relation to T. bridgesii than to proper T. pachanoi as presented in his pachanot compared to bridgesii piece.

No one, Trout or myself, has made declarations regarding this subject, only suggestions gathered from limited understanding and insight. The problem is that no one can so far confirm the origins of the PC, except this Robert fellow apparently, but saying it is from South America says very little when the other option is "not from South America." Even if he should be right I'm not impressed by an answer that can technically cover 17,840,000 square kilometers. If someone doesn't want a better answer than that then by all means, chill out among your plants and enjoy yourself, but at least try and understand that some people get a kick out of looking for actual answer to the questions raised by that which is lacking.

But back to the subject of this particular plant of Robert's...seeing your comment about "Roberts naming of some plants" aren't you at all concerned about this so-called T. valida? Still looks like T. terscheckii to me, at least the one growing through the roof. Photos 5, 6, and 7 look to be of a slightly different plant to me, or at least the background shows them to be in a different location.

~Michael~

Edited December 16, 2011 by M S Smith

[Bretloth]

It came from Ritter seed as Valida, the owner who has grown cacti longer than any of us calls it Valida. Good enough for me. What PD is refering to is Robert calling his obvious Peruvianus, Roseii, which at the time was an accepted name so no confusion there. As far as I'm aware no real actual expert has ever said the "pc pach" is not a pachanoi. Mr Fields has far more experience than any of us, his father was a share holder of the original expeditions, his family have been at the forefront of cacti in horticulture the entire time, I'll go with what he says.

Edited December 16, 2011 by Bretloth

[M S Smith]

That Robert got his seed from Ritter says nothing more than Ritter's belief that the plant from which he gathered seed matched the previously described T, validus. I'm honestly not trying to tear down either Robert or Ritter, but the idea that Robert's plant must be the T. validus simply because he got seed from Ritter and has grow cactus for decades is fallacious. Certainly these factors don't make Robert beyond question. As for Ritter, he was producing a very wide-reaching compendium, a "a brief treatment or account of a subject, especially an extensive subject" and any reading of his work shows that he saw how it raised as many questions as it answered. Even Trout has "a bunch of questions but no answers" regarding T. validus. see... http://www.shaman-au...showtopic=27432

But honestly Bretloth, I don't see the issue here, especially when you yourself say that Robert was not mistaken in calling T. peruvianus T. roseii since it was a so-called "accepted" name" at the time. If T. validus (or variants encountered as Echinopsis or valida) is not an accepted name today, which it is not, then what accepted plant is Robert's "T. valida"? Though most seem to regard T. validus as falling into T. tacaquirensis (aka T. taquimbalensis, T. werdermannianus) Robert's plant would probably be regarded by most as a form of T. terscheckii.

~Michael~

ps - Ritter's own Kakteen of Sudamerika (1981) makes no mention of Trichocereus validus or Echinopsis valida, etc. Backeberg (Cactus Lexicon, 3rd Ed., 1976), though offering a brief description of T. validis, doesn't even appear to know where it grows as he simply puts "SE. Bolivia (?)", and Anderson's entry for Echinopsis valida says "see E. uyupampensis?".

Edited December 16, 2011 by M S Smith

[M S Smith]

BIg time post script....

It came from Ritter seed as Valida,

 

You said different elsewhere...

"I know with Feilds he got most of his stock straight from Ritter but at least his valida came from a bolivian pen pal who was a botanist who sent her son here with the seed and some others,"

http://www.shaman-au...ndpost&p=305703

So Robert's T. valida is not from Ritter after all? And who is this botanist?

For shits and giggles here's someone's T. validus that's looking a lot like T. terscheckii...

http://www.kuentz.co...6015#msg-126015

~Michael~

Edited December 16, 2011 by M S Smith