ave Posted May 28, 2002 Share Posted May 28, 2002 I have bought some catha edulis tea ( dried grind leaves)from africa , are there members who have used it ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torsten Posted May 29, 2002 Share Posted May 29, 2002 yes, this is very similar to ephedra tea. however, it is illegal as far as I can tell (prepared illegal substance). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spikey Posted May 29, 2002 Share Posted May 29, 2002 and as far as i know in my exprience (legal where i live) catha edulis tea will be worth shiti left a khat bundle on in a cupboard for 3 days and then tried it and it was worth shit and a fresh one was good, cathonine get's broken down in 48 hours,i don't think freeze dry will helps cause this is very unstable.... but u can get high off cathine, but it's not as fun as cathonine, so i don't think any dried khat should be used....spike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torsten Posted May 30, 2002 Share Posted May 30, 2002 the cathinone enolises (ie becomes inactive) within a day or so , however the cathine (also known as nor-ephedrine) is quite stable. The stimulating effect from the tea is due entirely to the cathine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spikey Posted May 30, 2002 Share Posted May 30, 2002 but the diffrence about in potencyis like cathine = lsa and cathonine = lsdquite a bit diffrent so i would rather chew on fresh khat and get my cathinone quialty dose then have a stupid tea with cathine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torsten Posted May 30, 2002 Share Posted May 30, 2002 I think the point is not to compare khat tea to fresh khat, but to compare it to ephedra. Sure, fresh khat is the strongest, but in many cases this is not what is desired. For example if I am wrokign late and need to stay awake, I would rather have some ephedra or dried khat tea than to get whacked on fresh khat. Keeping in mind that some khat strains are not just stimulating, but also inebriating. The inebriating effect (which I believe not to be due to cathinone or cathine) is absent in dried material as far as I can tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Posted May 30, 2002 Share Posted May 30, 2002 So sticking your Khat leaves in the feezer (assuming you live in future) would do little to slow the break down of cathinone?What does it break down into? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Posted May 30, 2002 Share Posted May 30, 2002 Nevermind species data: The buffered conditions in the plant, room temperatures (or higher) and moisture are very conducive to the conversion of cathinone into the enol derivative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ave Posted June 2, 2002 Author Share Posted June 2, 2002 Torsten : illegal where in Australia ?as fas as I know not illegal in all European countries. Ave Originally posted by Torsten:yes, this is very similar to ephedra tea. however, it is illegal as far as I can tell (prepared illegal substance). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darklight Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 Sad to say... I tried fresh leaves off my plant both as a tea and as a quid. Didn't notice any effect. No idea what all this rambling about my plant being a strong strain is https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=&key=ed93ee4b8a158835e0af19ead9c794b11af03de360911f7858b9da338588c45dMind you I think I burned all those neurotransmitters out years ago, horses for courses, there are other things which effect me more strongly which go for the still intact brain bits https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=&key=ed93ee4b8a158835e0af19ead9c794b11af03de360911f7858b9da338588c45d Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torsten Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 ave, illegal in australia, the US and I think germany. There are probably many other countries, but these are the ones I know.darklight, khat is crap in winter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darklight Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 I know https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=&key=ed93ee4b8a158835e0af19ead9c794b11af03de360911f7858b9da338588c45d This was yeeears ago, in summer, I forgot to mention that bit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ave Posted June 3, 2002 Author Share Posted June 3, 2002 Torsten : I know that they have in Holland "Quat house" where Somalian people can use there fresh leaves ( direct imported from africa by KLM ) and not illagal in the UK, in Spain lagel, for Germany it is allowed for living plants as far a sI know, but dired leaves ( tea)it is unknown (for me).Ave Originally posted by Torsten:ave, illegal in australia, the US and I think germany. There are probably many other countries, but these are the ones I know.darklight, khat is crap in winter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest reville Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 Stimulants affect me very littleIm curious about the fuss over cathaIve tried Darklights strain, The SAB red strain and my own and all of them just feel like epehdra tea or strong cofee though nicer than the last oneNo inebriation nothing to write home aboutjust a pleasntly stimulating freshnessmaybe im just insensitive to this as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torsten Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 or maybe you didn't eat enough https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://www.shaman-australis.com/ubb/wink.gif&key=4919fe9fb0297038d452b640b095bc279f8cc68a37fc8152fee24836b0d8f0df Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theobromos Posted June 7, 2002 Share Posted June 7, 2002 I thought I had discussed this with you before, Torsten. I know of no evidence for the enol form being inactive, perhaps you can enlighten me? The enol may be an intermediate in the production of the inactive dimers (two molecules of the starting compound linked together chemically) such as 3,6-dimethyl-2,5-diphenylpyrazine which has been found in samples of khat. There is also a diketone derivative but that is unlikely to be produced quickly. The enol is present at all times with the keto form ("dynamic equilibrium) in samples of cathinone unless one form is taken away by an irreversible reaction, when the balance will be skewed to that form until reaction is complete. http://www.undcp.org/bulletin/bulletin_198..._3_page003.html These reactions are dehydration and oxidation, possibly in dilution, frozen, at neutral pH and with antioxidants some degradation could be avoided. I seem to remember a rule of thumb that for every rise of ten degrees in temperature reactions go twice as fast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theobromos Posted June 7, 2002 Share Posted June 7, 2002 "The stimulating effect from the tea is due entirely to the cathine."So you don´t believe that the "cathidines", polyester alkaloids similar to the actives in Celastrus, could have a stimulating effect? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torsten Posted June 7, 2002 Share Posted June 7, 2002 Originally posted by theobromos:I thought I had discussed this with you before, Torsten. I know of no evidence for the enol form being inactive, perhaps you can enlighten me? e-mail me with your current addy and I will. The enol has some serious mucous membrane drying action though. The enol is present at all times with the keto form ("dynamic equilibrium) in samples of cathinone unless one form is taken away by an irreversible reaction, when the balance will be skewed to that form until reaction is complete.yeah, almost. It is an equilibrium, however it sits a long way over to the enol side - like at 90% or more. Increae in pH, increase in heat and presence of water promotes the speed that it reaches equilibrium. These reactions are dehydration and oxidationare we still talking about enolisation?? cos this is a simple proton migration. It happens to any ketone that has a saturated carbon next to it with at least one hydrogen that can migrate. possibly in dilution, frozen, at neutral pH and with antioxidants some degradation could be avoided.as I said above, degradation cannot be avoided, only slowed down. You are correct about freezing to slow it down, but the rest are wrong. The ketone form is most stable as a strong-acid salt, with as little moisture as possible. A weak acid would be the next choice, then weak base etc .....you get the idea. As a strong acid salt the ketone will degrade less than 50% in 2 months at room temp. As a freebase it will degrade almost entirely within 2 or 3 days! Neutral pH is not a good idea. Antioxidants make no difference. ascorbic acid promotes enolisation due to its alkaline properties in the presence of a strong acid.I seem to remember a rule of thumb that for every rise of ten degrees in temperature reactions go twice as fast.yeah, I remember that from school. I think it was applied to burning and applied broadly form there, but in the following years at Uni it just didn't hold up very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theobromos Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 As to the dehydration and oxidation, no, we are not talking about enolisation, read the link I gave. Or search the page for diphenylpyrazine if you are in a hurry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theobromos Posted July 12, 2002 Share Posted July 12, 2002 Torsten seems to have given up thinking about this. My opinion is that his enol theory has absolutely no basis in chemistry and has no evidence whatsoever to support it. All you have to do is read a basic organic chemistry textbook on keto-enol tautomers to discover this.The decomposition product of cathinone is either 3,6-dimethyl-2,5-diphenylpyrazine or 1-phenyl-1,2-propanedione. The two quite different products may account for some variation in descriptions of the smell and other effects of the degraded cathinone. http://www.undcp.org/images/bulletin/bulle...mg015_large.gif shows the structures of the two products and the link I gave above for the undcp gives the details and references. Other references for the formation of the pyrazine compound are:Journal of Organic Chemistry (1982) 47; 2643-2647Journal of Forensic Sciences (1995) 40(1); 116-121 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torsten Posted July 12, 2002 Share Posted July 12, 2002 Originally posted by theobromos:Torsten seems to have given up thinking about this.Nope, I haven't. I am just not sure that with the available data I can come to a conclusion either way. We've both been around long enough to know that these things usually don't get sorted out in a matter of days, but can drag on for ages. I am in no hurry on this. I am glad you've knocked over my convenient theory though https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://www.shaman-australis.com/ubb/wink.gif&key=4919fe9fb0297038d452b640b095bc279f8cc68a37fc8152fee24836b0d8f0df(I haven't fogotten your e-mail and will reply when I have caught up with all the reading https://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://www.shaman-australis.com/ubb/wink.gif&key=4919fe9fb0297038d452b640b095bc279f8cc68a37fc8152fee24836b0d8f0df) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theobromos Posted July 12, 2002 Share Posted July 12, 2002 You're waiting for the complete genome and protein function mapping of Catha edulis before you decide? Several scientific papers demonstrate the deactivation products. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gomaos Posted July 12, 2002 Share Posted July 12, 2002 Originally posted by Torsten:ave, illegal in australia, the US and I think germany. Jeezes bludy christ, on the one hand my daughters in germany tell me that hash will soon be available at the chemist over there and that you can buy e-pills on every corner,on the other hand you hear all this sucky stuff about khat being illegal(why?), amt, 5meodipt and what have you all illegal over there, so they know about all these things and have them illegal, but heroin addicts get as much methadone as they can ever wish for...crazy, crazy place now over there, haven't been for a few years now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torsten Posted July 12, 2002 Share Posted July 12, 2002 germany went really bad in regards to ethnobotanicals. One would have expected a green-left government to be a little more rational and liberal, but things got drastically worse under them.Things prohibited in germany now include betel nuts, psychotria, caapi, and a whole host of things freely available even in australia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tripster Posted July 12, 2002 Share Posted July 12, 2002 Is Khat illeagle in australia?????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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