Sanema Tribe

[foolsbreath]

Did anyone see Tribe on SBS last night?

It was about the Sanema tribe in Venezuela, and the rituals they go through to speak with the Spirits

using a snuff

I found it quite sad, the Sanema seem to have lost their independance and are no longer nomadic. It will only be a matter of time before they are gone, and their rituals and spirits lost

how sad

[Torsten]

I found it interesting how he showed that traditional people often do not treat lightly on the planet, but rather that their impact was light only because of the small number and vast space.

[indigo264nm]

More rubbing in that I was stupid and forgot to tape it...

[Rev]

we did

i can save it for you

T that notion has been in circulation for many years

Richard spruce in the 19th century

"The largest river in the world runs through the largest forest...By little and litle i began to cmprehendthat in a forest which is practically unlimited- nearly three million square miles clad with trees, and where natives think no more of destroying teh noblest trees, when they stand in their way, than we the vilest weeds, a single tree cut down makes no greater gap, and is no more missed, than when one pulls up a stalk of groundsel or a poppy in an english cornfield"

the romanticisation and notion of 'wilderness' doesnt exist until we no longer live in it

until then surival is a practicality - as with the adoption of a cloth vs vine hammock. you sleep better in a cloth hammock - so life is better

my partner and i talked at length about this program and many things were well put together. what we did think wasnt good however is how he brought nothing ' to the table'

Everyone needs trade goods. a good quality machete (for the man) and cooking pot (for the woman) who are your hosts. A pig from a local market for a banquet (seeing as the rest of the time youll be eating their food) for the village.

Id also take some seeds and cuttings. Jakfruit and/or breadfruit as a starch alternative, maybe a culm of plantain banana too, and some taro sets

These people are recent agriculturalists and prob grow what theye first were given

Being so poor and so isolated the chances they have the best possible suite of species they can have is next to zero

the Bitter cassava they grow is hardy and productive but very labour intensive to process

the above alternatives strengthen food security and are more nutritious

with more resources like these and some cash crops they will probably survive

Edited January 21, 2006 by Rev

[folias]

hmm, I thought it was very interesting to see them all do the snuff and how they all dealt with that and how it worked for them... they just do it and that is their ritual and they sing the songs and communicate with the spirits!

The dude had apparently not really done his research as he called the "snuff" to be "drugs"! This is really unfortunate!

Maybe the future of the sanema could be involved in some kind of eco-tourism where they give the gringos the snuff! This is an unexplored area I would say... I am sure they would have a lot of people interested in such a thing after this documentary, and any potential tour operator would do very well I would say!

Unfortunately, things are pretty gruff over there... and although it may sound callous, this may be the best way these people's can successfully survive in this day and age. And such activities may well be the items of most value that they have to the wider world... whether it could be facilitated with all the conditions present or not is another matter... it seems once one makes the decision to enter the gloal industrial family complex...there is no turning back, like it or not!

When I was in South America I drank ayahuasca with the mammalacta family... from a tribe in ecudor, they had successfully adapted it seemed to western conditions very fast! And were some of the quickest, most adaptive and creative people I have ever met. It seems they had seen "the game" on a global scale way back in the 50's and 60' and decided, that either we play it or die out as victims!

So while it is sad to see what is going on there in many ways, there is also much room for optimism in how strong these people are in adjusting to the new global terminology...

Julian

[Rev]

the sense of tryptamine 'intoxication' was palpable in some of those scenes

i was sitiing back thinking yeeeeeap i know where u are ;) or looking at faces and thinking yeeeap seen that look recently :D

we have so much to learn and trade from people like them and they have much to learn and trade from us

like we have a globalised culture with no head or sense to direct it and they have the understanding and direction with no organised means or power to take it anywhere.

if anyone was to help they have to be people who know both worlds already. say- to know the mechanism and basics of wetsern medical tradition yet also be an initiate to the realm of spiritual sickness.

currently it seems both partlies, the doctors and shamans, are blind in one eye

how many times have you gone to the doctor with an illness only to be given a placebo script or told it must be a 'virus' . Meanwhile traditions from time immemorial like massage and dietary advice have been delegated to a second grade status of complementary or alternative medicine despite simple touch and nutrition being cornerstones of the health of the human social animal

Western medicine as it exist today isnt nearly as good as it pretends to be so dont pay attention to the holier than thou attitudes..

and in a situation like this when traditional people get trained in western ideologies they put aside their traditions, often shun them as being backward, as this is the opinions of the western establishment. This then reinforces the lack of self worth and hastens loss of practicing healers

likewise when people from the west seek answers to the shortcomings of western idologies they often go towards the esoteric and indigenous. yet often both fail to 'get it' due to the easy living (Siddartha syndrome?) and lack of the mindset of raw practicality inherent in indigenous subsistence lifestyles and as a result take board so much extra ideological crap due to the lack of intellectual rigour

so we have two hybrid cultural fusions that are poor quality mules rather than a healthy synthesis

The ideal situation is where a scientist and scholar of western derivation learns the language of the spirit world and sees the same mechanisms so carefully studied brought to life and given context and meaning, and a shaman who has the meaning and the mechanism in abstract terms is given instructon in the other side of human discovery so that he may see that the stories and power plays he knows have complementary descriptors in other versions of the unseen world - like microbiology in regards to communicable disease, and also the concept of placebo, a phenomenon perrennially uneasy for the western model but so easily explained in the shamanic context.

Edited January 21, 2006 by Rev

[Being]

this episode was the first i've seen in this series, and although on the ads i thought he seemed like a bit of a tosser, when i finally saw the show he did strike me as really genuine and humble.

Reminded me of Jungle Trip in a few ways... (and no i'm not implying you're a tosser, if you still read these forums, Piers )

What i would say with this form of television is this: (directed at the directors)

If you're going to show us tripping, let us see you trip out, instead of tripping and trying not to trip out to tell us whats it like to trip!

He was obviously having a mind blowing experience and saying "i keep on wanting to go off into my own dream world, but i'm brought back here to talk", his experience was kind of ruined i think by the intrusion of the camera, so there isn't accurate documentation of the state. He could have been simply filmed during the experience and have a post-experience voice over or talk to the camera about it afterwards...

Having said that, i really enjoyed watching how these people go about doing this.. didn't strike me as toooo structured, they were just like 'alright lets do this and sing and have a good time!'

[gerbil]

Rev I experienced exactly the same thing, just looking at their face you knew what they were going through, I found it smack on when he took a low dose and stated that he was now much more on the same wavelength or something similar, it's that tryptamine/b-carb feeling like the universal consciousness, it's difficult to explain yet so clear to feel it. He even mentioned when he looked at the other people who weren't intoxicated, they just nodded their had as to communicate that they knew exactly what he was going through.

I have to watch it again, but something I found interesting was their mention of Waika Indians (who live to the south and East around about in Brazil and Venezeula) and how the Waika had killed alot of the Sanema population, yet there was a woman in the tribe wearing a pair of earrings which I think derive from Waika populations. I don't know exacts, but lots of Schultes photos shows Waika men (& women?) wearing those triangular designs. Possibly trading crafts within the tribes, but I'm also thinking they might not be as hostile to each other as it came across, many tribes having agreements with surrounding ones for marriages etc to cease inbreedring etc. For example 3 tribes, women from 1 marry men from 2, 2 marry 3, 3 marry 1 etc.

Then again maybe it was a kidnap and claim as one of them or similar. Lots of possibilites but I found it fascinating.

I agree with you to an extent Being about the camera having too much of a presence. Not only on his experience, but I'm feeling pretty positive that some of the Sanema men where really playing up to the camera entertaining themselves at times.

A part I nearly wet myself was when the women were sitting down watching him chop wood and they mentioned he's cutting it too big, somebody should tell him and help him, then they continue to sit down and enjoy watching him.

I haven't seen all episodes, though Sanema and Kombai (PNG) were my favourite, both were close to what I want to study and what fascinates me, but also on the level that they really enjoyed his company, made him feel overly at home and really enjoyed mucking about and taking the piss out of people, lots of good laughs.

Schultes mentions around that area that Virola theiodora is primarily used, I'm wanting to contact the guy to see if he had any vague info on the preperation if he saw it. I'd imagine (Thanks Schultes!!) the plants were Virola sp. more than likely V theiodora mixed with a Theobroma species to basify or Elizabetha princeps

One other intersting thing that shows trade (possibly) is the vessels they were using to hold the snuff. Photos of Waika men show very similar pots that they use as the last step for grinding and administration.

Fantastic series, I didn't agree with some ways he went about things, though I felt he was very much in touch with himself and was very respectful often feeling bad for vomiting etc. I feel he was very genuine in his aproach and what he wanted to learn.

[indigo264nm]

Anybody tape it perchance???

[Rev]

they said the waika killed many of them with sorcery

and in this case the mystery deaths can be attributed to infectious disease

maybe a plague started only after a meeting for trade with waika members

easy to see why they think the waika put a spell on them

[t st tantra]

was suprised they seemed to have no inner focus on visions,he was the only one closing his eyes.

maybe they has had so much it didnt matter.

maybe on the same topic,they took their snuff in the daytime not in the dark.

anyone who takes the snuff [and finds a song ?] is a shaman ?

t s t .

[gerbil]

Thanks rev, went back for a second viewing and it was sorcery.

Yanomami info on snuff (sanema) for anyone interested.

http://www.entheology.org/edoto/anmviewer.asp?a=160&z=4