What can you tell me about Blue unpasteurised cheeses?

[Rev]

Just curious as theres seems to be some cheeselovers here and im interested in isolating some cool fungal strains from some of the better ones

Does anyone have some good links to the difference in techniques between pasteurised and unpasteursed cheeses?

and whats the big scare over unpasteurised anyway? is it a transmissable cow disease or a matter of sanitation?

anyway im out to isolate Penicillium roquefortii for fun, which i doubt will be hard given the seams of blue running through.

Anyone that helps me learn what i need to know about this one is welcome to a culture tube if they want it.

Also what other cheese moulds (or other food organisms) might be worth isolating as pure cultures?

I always though having a collection of the worlds most noble moulds might be an asset

I do recall there is the Tempeh starter as well... but i think that easy enough to buy.

I prefer moulds over bacteria as im more confidant in ID'ing them as the genuine article

also some would be cool but cant be done - theres a delicacy corn smut in mexico that i think would have the Ag dept arresting me if i tried to grow let alone distribute! Australias firts Bioterrorist? ha

Huitlacoche - Ustilago maydis

http://www.halfmoon.org/story/smut.html

[ 13. September 2004, 20:16: Message edited by: reville ]

[smogs]

i cant help but definately an interesting venture and i am interested to see how it goes

what a good idea

as a thought... do cheese makers have any copyright on their fungal strains?

my guess that they keep their cultures quite guarded

i dont think australian law would allow this tho...

definately will lead to some tasty experiments.

[nabraxas]

i was always told that many ov the blue cheeses get their blue veins from having copper wires left in them. the mold grows around the wire, which is removed before packaging---but the holes the wire was in & the tube form ov the blue mould are still visible, Danish Blue is a classic example.

the pastuerisation was originally to get rid ov TB; these days sloppy mass milk production results in antibiotics, pus, shit etc. getting in the milk & pastuerisation is used more as a general steralisation measure.

[ 14. September 2004, 06:25: Message edited by: nabraxas ]

[ramon]

Also what other cheese moulds (or other food organisms) might be worth isolating as pure cultures?

 

I believe the rind of Brie is made using some sort of Penicillium strain.

[VINS]

 

quote:

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Originally posted by reville:

 

[QB] Just curious as theres seems to be some cheeselovers here and im interested in isolating some cool fungal strains from some of the better ones

---

for sure there is some cheese lovers here !!! but i don't know if you could isolate the fungal from cheese.....in my remembering it is a fungal mix, different with each cheese.

 

quote:

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Does anyone have some good links to the difference in techniques between pasteurised and unpasteursed cheeses?

 

and whats the big scare over unpasteurised anyway? is it a transmissable cow disease or a matter of sanitation?

---

i have some good link but they are in french langage, anyway the difference is simple : unpasteurised cheese always taste and smell better !

also a diference between pasteurised cheese and cheese made with pasteurised milk....(i am not sure of that ! but i think they could heat at different time)

only the pregnant woman have to becarrefull because of listeria and other bacterie.(it is irony, some antibiotic and some bacteria in the same food)

 

quote:

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anyway im out to isolate Penicillium roquefortii for fun, which i doubt will be hard given the seams of blue running through.

 

Anyone that helps me learn what i need to know about this one is welcome to a culture tube if they want it.

---

the Roquefort company is keeping the secret ! they have some special room directly in the stone where the fungal are more olds than the men. it is a commercial secret and a lot of cheese maker were trying to stole it. some of them are just a few hundreds of meter from the guenine cellar and their fungal is not the same.....

good luck anyway ! (i am not sure that the cellar fungal is the same than the fungal on the cheese which grow in it)

 

quote:

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Also what other cheese moulds (or other food organisms) might be worth isolating as pure cultures?

 

I always though having a collection of the worlds most noble moulds might be an asset

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if you want, i could send you a good munster or livarot, or maybe you prefer a pont leveque or a camembert ? they are all competiting for the best smell :D they are famous and i came from Normandie, the place with the more and best cheese in france.(be sure they are the guenine, not an industrial copy)

 

quote:

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Australias firts Bioterrorist? ha

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this remind me the story of Astérix & Obelix in corsica island when the "bruccio "cheese is explosing in the boat...

[ 14. September 2004, 18:48: Message edited by: VIN'S ]

[VINS]

http://www.botany.hawaii.edu/faculty/wong/...T135/Lect16.htm

i don't know if it is interesting for you ...

to grow roqueforti you will need acidic milk and holes for oxygen...

[Rev]

Thanks guys esp that bit on Acidic milk vince

I wonder where i can get lactic acid for the acidification of my media

thatd be preferable but i guess citric would be good as it could prob be used by the fungus in the citric acid pathway

Yeah ive seen the copper wire thing before

might that intensify the blue as cheese acids react with the wire

I would have thoght Copper wire would be a very poor substrate for Mould given that Copper is like Kryptonite to Algae and Fungi

Hey Vins - Arent Asterix Comics are the best!

I grew up on them

I wish we had Getafix the Druid here to cook up a special brew

from the link

 

quote:

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Although no caves appear to be as well suited for the production of Roquefort cheese as the one in which it was discovered, Penicilium roqueforti is so ubiquitous that it was difficult to maintain a monopoly on this cheese, in Roquefort. However, this would not be due to lack of trying. The people of Roquefort feared that other cheeses of lesser quality manufactured under their name would destroy the reputation of their own Roquefort cheese. To prevent such an occurrence, the good people of Roquefort went to King Charles VI, who ruled that only the cheese of Roquefort could be called Roquefort. Although this would be repealed later, the use of Roquefort is still currently limited by French regulation to prevent cheese makers from misrepresenting the origin of their cheese. Today, cheese made with P. roqueforti, but not from the town of Roquefort, is usually generically referred to as blue cheese from the blue-green mycelium growing through the cheese.

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same with champagne.

Its my proffessional opinion as a mycologist that if you sell a living fungal product then you have effectively sold your secret

The fungus on the cheese is the fungus that makes teh cheese

That said there are complicating variables

1. Milk quality

This may be affected by the species in teh pasture and the soil on which they are grown, it can also be very much affetced by the breed of cow

These are valuable details

For example King island has wonderful dairy in no small part to its rich pastures with their interesting makeup of pasture species (legend tells of old grass-stuffed mattresses washing up as flotsam off ships and supplementing the species complex to teh favour of dairy framing)

2. Climate

Humidity and temp fluctuations may play a big role in causing the fungus to do what it needs too

My research into other fungi indicates that small changes in temp can shift fungi to take to one lifestage or another or modify their chemical arsenal. When talking about something as complex as flavour this is significant.

3. Other bits

all the stuff i dont know yet

I think that Roquefort has been fighting to retain its discovery since the begginning. In order to do so it has to mystify the origins and make it sound as though it has firstly more knowledge over how they do what they do than is truthful, and secondly that it is all far too complicated and most importantly unique for any other place to produce as good a cheese, then belittle anything else as an imitation

Its textbook strategy.

hmm just realised that Sheeps milk is needed....

Maybe i should be working with Gorgonzola first, which is a cows milk cheese.

[ 14. September 2004, 21:02: Message edited by: reville ]

[smogs]

theres a damn good cheese made by a tasmanian cheese maker i forget the name but its wasabi cheese

and it is excelent!

its justa vintage cheddar or something with ground wasabi leaf and root mixed in

delicious

sold at woolies

wouldnt copper wire lead to copper sulfate... which is poisonous?

but then we do use copy to suply us with fresh drinking water

[VINS]

 

quote:

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Its my proffessional opinion as a mycologist that if you sell a living fungal product then you have effectively sold your secret

 

The fungus on the cheese is the fungus that makes teh cheese

 

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are you sure of that ? i don't think it is as simple.

each cellar has his own fungal and the same cheese will go into several cellar before the end of maturation. when it is ready there is a mix on the cheese. as exemple you will need some Camembert fungal to ad to your roqueforti if you want to make roquefort cheese.(regarding the source for the milk, you can began with cow milk, this is how a lot of french blue cheese were born; ex "bleu des causses""bleu d'auvergne" etc...

if you have some special and technic question, i could surely ask the professionnal for you.

and regarding Getafix :D :D that's funny, the name of the characters are differents in each state, i didn't know it was called getafix in english but i am sure you are talking about the druide... here his name is "panoramix" and the irony is that he also cook brew here !!!! (350 in my remembering)

[VINS]

is it the same ?

[Rev]

I dont know you'd better send that pic over to me for closer inspection

BTW i still think all the necessary microbes will be hiding on the cheese

What would make a difference is innoculation rate

If you put too much it grows through very quick and accumulates breakdown products at dif rate to the standard, There is also less time for any other species to establish

also if not enough then there is much more space for other airborne moulds and bacteria

and it stakes maybe another week to grow through so less time to accumulate flavour.

This (the timing), the environmental conditions and the milk quality i would be guessing are 99% of all of it

If any other organisms is present my bet is it will turn up on my plates as a 'contaminant'

surely to affect the flavour of the cheese the organism must grow on the cheese? so traces or viable innoculum will remain imbedded

If i seem to be not believing there is a magic and unique organism it would be because the probability of a made up story to protect interest is higher than it being reality

Mainly because logically it is very explainable without another mysterious organism

You might say i have the 'lone gun man' theory here

I will post all pics and single out the organisms i get and we will see what is there.

[ 15. September 2004, 15:18: Message edited by: reville ]

[ramon]

Also what other cheese moulds (or other food organisms) might be worth isolating as pure cultures?

 

The yeast which is used by homebrewers for later distillation can tolerate up to 20% alcohol or so.

I think they pay around $9 a satchell for this yeast. Although the satchells probably also contain nutrients for the yeast as they multiply.

[Rev]

hmmm

well heres a thought

People have kept and maintained their own yeats for millenia for making beer and making bread

Maybe we should just go back and find out how they used to do this - that is to maintain a wort

Wouldnt a yeast tolerating up to 20% alcohol be easier to maintain given the selective killing of most other organisms that cohabit above the usual 12% tolerance for wine yeasts

hmmm be great for bootlegg moonshiners

[smogs]

its sorta not worth isolating those because its so obtainable

all you have to do is buy 1 satchel and in theory could keep culture going forever

the only real reason for obtaining a brewers yeast if its a quality specific yeast... you can brew beer using coopers yeasts easily to get authentic coopers taste.... unfortunately all the otehr brewers put their beer threw a streliser to kill all the yeast and bugs which is generally a good thing... because sometimes you get a bad batch of coopers thats been sitting next to the hot part of the fridge for a few months b4 it gets to your belly

[JumpedAngel]

I saw one of those trendy new-age cooking programs not long ago where they fermented one of those greek style 'maggot' cheeses from unpasturized goats milk with the bile/rennin? from a goats intestines? which they had previously slaughtered/butchered, had to wonder where the actual insect larvae came from in this preperation?, the flies?. also remained amazed to realize that the bacteria was able to survive the goats guts and in fact resides there.

I have an interest in moulds etc. but its getting away from the cheese thread a bit so i sent it off in this direction ----> http://www.shaman-australis.com.au/cgi-bin...c;f=12;t=000459

[Rev]

smogs:

its sorta not worth isolating those because its so obtainable

all you have to do is buy 1 satchel and in theory could keep culture going forever

sorry that what i was getting at

you could keep these super yeasts going but you haveto have a protocol that kept up selective pressure so it didnt chnage back to a lower % tolerance yeast

well ive sterilised my Milk agar and ill innoculate soon

this will be interesting

Im putting 20mg filter sterilisd oxytetracycline into one lot just in case the bacteria swamps the moulds.

[Darklight]

smogs:

theres a damn good cheese made by a tasmanian cheese maker i forget the name but its wasabi cheese

Wasabi....cheese? I smell a marketing opportunity Can't imagine the taste tho I'll take yer word for it

[Rev]

Its good!!

really

You know how some good cheeses have a bite, well as u can imagine this one does too

plus the flavour

mmmmmmm

Well just went and bought some english stilton which is damn good!

some Double Brie

and a strange one to my knowledge - Blue brie

could u ask for more?

[occidentalis]

Is this a business venture in the making Reville?

Funkyblueunpasteurisedcheese.com?

[Rev]

Ha

no way - one thing at a time

Im not really in a dairy area anyway so hard to bribe farmers to sell me unpasteurised milk

ive wanted to know if it could be done for years

seeing as how im having some lab equpiment difficulties im on

light duties so i have time to satisfy an old query

Once i get the fungus in vitro, i would sell it - just like any other fungus i have. no point just sitting in my fridge

dont know about demand though but off the shelf clean innoculum is still a special thing if you want to play.

so what the hell

[smogs]

so pasterised milk makes bad cheese? or just for certain types of cheese?

and yes the wasabi cheese is *&%%ing brillant... especially when you come home very drunk and have a big log of salami

mmmm

im sure you would have alot of interest in cheese cultures

i remember seeing on getaway or one of those crap shows cheesemaking courses you could do and stuff... but it was mainly the novelty of seeing the cheese being made yadda yadda.

i think you could definately set up kits that you could sell in shops and have it somewhat like a home brew shop.

im already trying to convert lots of people to mycology i think its an excelent past time. all you need to do is develope it and then get some publicity which shouldnt be too hard because its wacky and so on.

[Rev]

I know ive said it before but the FF site will be up very very soon

After messing about with my webprogram-attention-defecit-disorder for how long hmm well i think realistically im 6 months late

now ive got a new program to work with and its Fking brilliant

Ive got more done in 2 days than in the last 2 years

im over halfway easily in getting it built. i think it might take another 2-3 days to make it fit to see thats it.

[devance]

I am real blue big chesse fan. Rouqford as well.

I have tried making it with cream cheese with the culture,

Which didn't work.

I have only been successsful with making butterermilk

by using store bought butter milk added to regular milk.

I have had results raising mexican blue corn which gets heavily infected with fungal growth, , taste vaugely resembles truffles.

[Rev]

devance:

I have had results raising mexican blue corn which gets heavily infected with fungal growth, , taste vaugely resembles truffles.

yum. we have it in australia- the smut- but its not common, ive only read about it in passing on agr websites

I guess what we need is a susceptible variety which is what you be looking for if you wanted it to infect your corn.

I wonder what the smut does to teh nutritional value of maize

might it be beneficial to grow susceptible varieties for feed corn if the protein and or vitamin content was increased by parasitisation

Im sure Pigs would loveit

[devance]

http://www.bbg.org/gar2/topics/kitchen/200...3su_tubers.html

This article mentions a way of increasing the smut growth. "They encouraged its growth by scratching the cornstalks at soil level with a knife—thereby allowing the water-borne spores easy entrance into the plant."