Pituri? Please?

[Torsten]

Originally posted by JumpedAngel:

again this brings to mind the memory that pituri was also cured or treated in some special way, what do you know of that?

The curing is certainly an interesting aspect of pituri use. There are twop options here. One is that curing affects the superficial characterisitcs such as taste, smell and appearance. This could be used to disguise the original plant source, or could simply be to improve flavour. The curing of tobacco is seen as essential in the west, but of little consequence to many native americans.

The second option is that chemical changes occur. These changes could be to the actual active constituent, either making it stronger or making it palatable (compare Amanita mushrooms), or they could be to the toxic co-constituents to eliminate them (compare Sceletium fermentation).

I know very little about nicotine chemistry, so I really don't know what to think of this except to try them all out.

If many of the pituri chemo-types are already toxic or poisonous and the secret to the manipulation of the plant is actually in the preparation then the Kadaicha may be spared his grim duty, merely allowing nature to take its course and reinforcing superstitions verbally by acurately predicting symptoms to the criminals transgressions or faining that he has stolen the criminals kidney fat or some other ju-ju bullshit like that.

Yep, my point exactly. But it has its limiations as there seems to be no traditional way of preparing the pituri from other areas that would enforce the superstitions in the disloyal community member. Now that would be a handy thing to have and is certainly a tool used in many other cultures in similar cicumstances.

Bottom line is that Pituri from a certain area is classed as desirable and that of other areas is classed as not so. This division just happens to match the chemotyping. Whatever conclusions are drawn from that are logical but tenuous given the lack of background knowledge about this plant.

I have sailed through the past few decades accepting that we honestly don't know exactly which chem. or combination is responsible for the activites of several plant substances including pituri

Sure, and discoveries like the different effects of varying harmala alkaloids in caapi show us just how easily we can go wrong. But often the simple answer isn't too far from the truth, and given that nicotine certainly fits the bill of the accounts given of high dosage pituri use (and happens to be the major alkaoid in the right pituri strains), it is the best case scenario to work from.

and I kind of aggree there is a case for studies of the sort you propose but then again I am in two minds as I'm not entirely sure that it really matters, what are you looking for?

Knowledge. We are losing so much of the traditional knowledge and so much of it is obscured by 'protective deception' and lack of integral research. By laying sound scientific foundations we might be able to rescue some of the traditional knowledge as well as providing a broad base for further research.

do you want to domesticate the plant and produce a breed specificaly selected and cultivated on the basis of your idea of the most acceptable poisons contained therein?

You are obviously not very aware of our work in general. our reasons may include:

* conservation - if you are right and the plant is in decline then it would be important to preserve pure genetics (unaffected by introduction of other strains into the area in the future).

* pharmacology - Two Duboisia spp are already major australian export industries.

* availability - rather than pussy footing around the academics of pituri use it will be possible for ethnobotanical enthusiasts to make up their own mind on the basis of first hand experience. NOTE: the selection of the strain has already been done by the fact that tradeable pituri was only harvested from a certain area. I would not bother analysing this plant before offering it as the whole poitn of the execise is to understand traditional use.

* preparation - study and analyse the changes caused by various preparation methods.

* cultivation - personally I love cracking the cultivation parameters for rare plants.

do you want to reclaim lost knowledge?

Maybe not the lost one, but certainly the one which is being diluted and obscured in this lifetime.

are you prepared to decide for us or dictate to us which is the most acceptable poison that the plant should manufacture?

As i said, thousands of years (presumably) of traditional use have already identified the plants from the preferred area. For all I know there might be several chemotypes within that area itself! Initially all I want is to obtain a specimen of a plant individual that I KNOW is being used for traditonal purposes (hence the idea of cuttings/grafts). Sure, I would take samples from many other plants, but I would hesitate to call them pituri.

and are you willing to assume responsibility for those decision that you make?

Every scientist can make mistakes. The idea is to minimise the possibility of mistakes and to document the process to allow scrutiny by others in the field. It is unlikely that I will personally publish a paper on pituri use. It is very likely though that I can provide material for bioassays, seed for cultivation, plants for analyses etc. I prefer to leave the interpretation of the data to other people wo are more qualified in this field.

I think you said you like a large hit of nicotine? what if you find that Mr Piturihead doesn't behave like Mr Nicotinehead, do you think you will be able to unload him?

My interest lies in WHY a plant is being used traditionally. I don't have a bias towards one plant/constituent or another. If I loved caffeine, but found that the actives in coffee aren't caffein at all, then I would have no problem accepting that. But doubting the activity of caffeine without knowing what else is in coffee is a little pointless. Ditto for pituri. We already know a lot about pituri pharmacology, but I think it needs to be tied up in a neater and more consistent package. if it turns out that pituri actually gets its kick from a tropane then so be it.

When I said I 'like' nicotine then that's what I meant. It doesn't mean I am addicted or even crave it (I dont smoke). It also doesn't mean I concentrate my studies on nicotine containing plants. I've made chimo a few times and experienced a dimension of nicotine that most people are unaware of. It is indeed a strong narcotic.

(Ohh Also my gnome has reminded me that the biggest nicotine hit he ever had was from drinking gin that had pituri soaking in it for about a month but can't make comparissons as he has never tried chimmo.)

Chimo is Nicotiana rustica/tabacum solidified water extract. A teaspoon equals a 2L pot full of crushed dried leaves. The dose for non smokers i about half a matchhead. This is the narcotic dose... there is no stimulant dose that can be safely measured.

These high tech. methods and speculations you propose may actually yield meaningless un-translatable results

Yes, they may. But they are really only a repeat of what has been doen already... just in a tighter and more reliable package.

they might even loose the original spirit of the plant or perhaps they may bring on some unforseen disaster

Boohoo. This has been said about every plant that has been taken from its traditional range. And for some it has been true (eg tobacco). But I feel every individual is responsible for their own actions and if someone gets addicted to nicotine then that's their problem.

If I felt there was a cultural issue looming then I would consider my poition carefully and err on the side of caution. Pituri is one of MANY plants we work with and it is not important enough to make compromises over.

I believe bioassays often present a valuable data set

Bioassays are like heresay. You yourself said not to trust anything anyone told you. hence the only way to transmit the information to someone else is to put it into scientific parameters. these are by no means perfect and bioassays should certainly always feature at the very least to improve the researchers understanding of the scientific data. For example the ridiculous propositions about the active principles of blue lotus would never have happened if the research idiots would have eaten one.

"....everything is poison....nothing is poison"

Who said that whether something is a poison or not depends on the quantity? Einstein? I think it is a much more suitable quote and goes back to each individual taking responsibility for themselves.

[JumpedAngel]

There may have been one or two difficult aspects to earning your Kadaicha shoes in past times, if you were sitting on a begnin pituri patch for example you may still find you need to set the example and point the bone sometimes in order to maintain control, this may have been part and parcel for your initiation, you may have kept an eye on your patch and then deliberately poisoned the occasional plant to help you prove your point, so to speak (pardon the pun), from there on nothing would travel faster or more effectively than that genuine fear spread through gossip and rumour down the pituri trail. Feedback comes naturally from your distributors, of course you're going to know where your product trades are falling off, especially if you were deliberately targeting that new axe or shell to trade-on for something else from a particular region.

Interestingly, I understand that there was a nearby region where human skulls were fashioned into drinking vessels, having been first sealed up and decorated with bits of shell and stone and weapons grade acacia resin (decapitation? why does that sound so familiar, I'd settle for their testicles if it was my patch), this may give you some idea as to why one culture might feel they need to control another culture too (would you want these people to be one and the same?, if not then you would need to learn how to maintain absolute discretion to maintain absolute control). It is thought by some (A.P.Elkin for one) that the religous landscape was trapped or frozen in a state of flux when whitey trickster arrived though you seldom see more difference than these two groups sitting side by side.

 

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"Sure, and discoveries like the different effects of varying harmala alkaloids in caapi show us just how easily we can go wrong. But often the simple answer isn't too far from the truth, and given that nicotine certainly fits the bill of the accounts given of high dosage pituri use (and happens to be the major alkaoid in the right pituri strains), it is the best case scenario to work from."

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I know abso-possa-fucka-lutely nothin about b.caapi (tried cactus, more so mr somahead), when in my late teens, had a humungus religous experience while under the influence, but it wasn't some sacred fungus or cactus or some other revalatory or devinatory ethnogen it was the humble carbon tetrachloride plant straight out of the can (an unhappy accident). The inscesant search that followed for years after that initial revelation saw me making spitefull accusations at a dear old girl after a ritual in my early twenties, claiming that she had spiked the inscence with drugs in order to manipulate my mind and wallet, and how humiliating for me when I went home and found the whole journey could be repeated at will from that time on.

The theory from the natural school of thought is interesting, it suggests that these chemicals of themselves may be largely irrelavent or fit broadly into categories only, and that it is only the secretion from the chakra/gland/psycic-centre which is felt by the consciousness/mind and not the chemical/poison which externally provoked the chakra/gland/psycic-centre in the first place, that is why one chemical might give you only a slightly different stone to a completely different chemical, the natural school of thought is said to work toward the control of these natural secretions at will rather than provoking them with poisons, however, this in itself also ends up becomeing a complete red herring when mis-used or over-used when you finally realize that you were not put here on this earth to merely subsist with your head in the clouds, and that in so doing you fulfill no useful purpose but instead it becomes yet one more form of mental masturbation, you must instead learn respect for the process and learn how to use it only when you need illumination or inspiration treating it as sacred knowledge.

 

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* pharmacology - Two Duboisia spp are already major australian export industries.

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Things must have changed "recently", pardon my ignorance but WHAT Duboisia spp. is going WHERE and for what purpose?, this isnt just that stolen plant being used for sea-sickness is it?

 

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* preparation - study and analyse the changes caused by various preparation methods.

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This is an interesting aspect, how many different ways are there to mix flour and water in a kitchen?

 

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Boohoo...I feel every individual is responsible for their own actions and if someone gets addicted to nicotine then that's their problem.

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Interesting thought (...tomorow dze verldt?), there couldn't possibly be a cultural issue at stake here, does this include ignorant children or are they also responsible for your profits, I mean their actions?

[Torsten]

Interesting thought (...tomorow dze verldt?), there couldn't possibly be a cultural issue at stake here, does this include ignorant children or are they also responsible for your profits, I mean their actions?

I do not sell to minors as far as I can control that. And for something like pituri I would certainly limit it to credit card sales only.

You know nothing of our work and yet you insist on attacking my motives in every one of your posts. I couldn't be bothered with that.... play with someone else.

[JumpedAngel]

 

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You know nothing of our work and yet you insist on attacking my motives in every one of your posts

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I've obviously hurt your feelings and I appologize for that. although I thought there was a bit of give and take going on with that.

I think it is difficult to do any work and not feel concerned about losing control of it.

Thanks for letting me pick your brain.

[folias]

 

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I would most certainly be concerned abot harvesting any endangered material. There is plenty of evidence of this in my arguments with Julian Even at a personal level, but most certainly at a commercial level.

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Interesting aside...Phlebophylla before the fires was not listed as endangered.

Apparently, the botanist in charge of these listings spent a lot of time researching the species first hand and after this investigation concluded the species was not endangered and did not deserve to be listed as such.

I wish you well with this mission Torsten...make sure to bring 48 lithium backup batteries for the GPS's and 6 extra compasses! ;-)

I smoked pituiri for a few days after a really heavy experience...the plant helped freshen and warm me back into an alignment in a way that tobacco only indicates...

I think that this plant has the potential to open the way for many new avenues of understanding and learning...

Julian.

[Torsten]

Originally posted by folias:

Phlebophylla before the fires was not listed as endangered.

I don't think you are right. The last time I researched it's status was well before the fires and it was listed already then. In fact, it was listed quite a while back, soon after I put in an application for listing (2000/2001 ?). Apparently at the time there was already an application pending (ie, I can't take credit for it ).

In the *1995* editiong of "Rare or threatened plants" A.phlebophylla is listed 2RCa, so it was already at the time regarded as rare. It doesn't take an Einstein to work out that this plant is not secure.

Apparently, the botanist in charge of these listings spent a lot of time researching the species first hand

Are you referring to david here?

I wish you well with this mission Torsten...make sure to bring 48 lithium backup batteries for the GPS's and 6 extra compasses! ;-)

Lol.

I smoked pituiri for a few days after a really heavy experience...

That wasn't early december by any chance

I think that this plant has the potential to open the way for many new avenues of understanding and learning...

yes, in a big way. As a non-smoker and someone not too fond of low dose nicotine, I cannot understate the huge difference Pituri (or chimo) have to merely smoking the stuff. That point where you are just about to pass out and then drift in and out of consciousness is a special place and deserves much more research. If Pituri was used as an anaesthetic then the dosages must have been phenomenal and would certainly induce visionary states.

[ 03. May 2004, 19:13: Message edited by: Torsten ]

[folias]

 

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In the *1995* editiong of "Rare or threatened plants" A.phlebophylla is listed 2RCa, so it was already at the time regarded as rare. It doesn't take an Einstein to work out that this plant is not secure.

 

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David was surprised about this when he told me it was only officially listed as being only rare, but told me of the botanist, and the research this botanist had done on this plant, apparently led him to this conclusion that it was not endandered.

Julian.

[Torsten]

There is a tendency to use the 'endangered' schedule for the minimum number of species possible. Loading up the schedule would cause a scattering of funds & attention from the most needy species. The population on Mt Buffalo did not have any major imminent threats and hence there was no endangerment. This does not mean that the plant cannot be wiped out or that it is secure. The 'rare' schedule is basically like a waiting list for the endangered schedule and as soon as a species in the rare listing suffers from an immediate threat it would be upgraded.

The reason why phlebophylla was not upgraded much sooner is because the detrimental effects of galling and fire are seen as natural and as phases in a cycle. The older a population gets the more it suffers from diseases and pests, but these are usually eliminated by fires which then allow healthy new regrowth. So in effect there is no imminent threat (ie endangerment) to this species if it wasn't for the complicating factors such as poor seed store, unusually short seed viability, and fires spread over the full range of the species at the same time.

There are plenty of species that have gone from rare to extinct without spending any time in the endangered schedule. This is usually caused by man made disasters such as residential or industrial development, and fires or floods caused (or worsened) by our intervention.

[Owtovit]

I got a great book a couple of years ago for Christmas. Its published by Reader's Digest and is called 'Across The Outback'. Most of it is written by Tom Bergin and is mainly about his recreation of Burke and Wills ill-fated expedition.

To help him on his journey, he had the help of an Aboriginal elder Nugget Gnalkenga and his son Frankie. It mentions that not too long into their expedition Nugget dissapeared from their camp at nighttime, returning with an armful of a weedy plant, which the author called pitchery.

According to the author's research, the pitchery plant 'induces a state of inner tanquillity and can be used to overcome fatige and thirst on a long trek - as well as the pain of initiation ceremonies such as circumsicion. ... sometimes used to 'lace' a small waterhole so that the animals that drank there became stupefied and would stand quietly while Aboriginal hunters approached and despatched them.'

Nugget dried this material over a couple days in the sun, tied to the camels they were using.

The author also tells of trying some mixed in with his tabacco in a cigarette. He says the result was 'a foul taste, cough, headache and insomnia. I don't think the authorities need worry about pitchery catching on with the youth of today.'

The book also gives some approximate details as to where they were at the time. Could be good reading for those planning a trip out into the desert.

Good luck on the expedition Torsten!

[Torsten]

Thanks for that. I will have a read. My trip was planned for end of June, but has just been delayed (out of my control) till early august. Anyone with any advice, locations or requests please post them here.

[mulgamick]

Interesting discussion. I'd like to make a few points.

Around Alice Springs, indigenous people use the word pituri when talking to whitefellas about various nicotiana species, it is not a local word. In various Western Desert dialects, the word for pituri is mingkulpa. There are many varieties of mingkulpa with different strengths. They all certainly contain nicotine, and something else called nornicotine.

Mingkulpa is never smoked. It is always chewed (actually, not chewed, but ground up and just stuck in the mouth). It is always perpared using the ash of particular trees. This ash is an alkali that helps get the active constituents out. When I have mingkulpa I can forget about my 20 year nicotine habit. Yes, it is addictive like tobacco, but there is no smoke in the lungs involved, along with all the lung cancer, emphysema, shortness of breath, etc, that smoking implies. Cheeky mingkulpa definitely creates a bit of a buzz, but I wouldn't call it a 'stone'. Mingkulpa is also clean, it can be found growing out in the mountains and sand hills west of Alice Springs, all around actually.

On a couple of aother points:

White culture is no better or worse than any other culture. All cultures have good and bad points. I got over self-hating anti-whitism pretty quickly living out in the desert in remote indigenous communities. I soon learned that whatever my sympathies, I was not aboriginal/indigenous and never would be anything remotely like it. There is good and bad everywhere, get over it and learn to love yourself and your ancestors. Indigenous culture is no fairytale paradise, they had their wars, massacres and invasions long before we whitefellas arrived.

Finally, the desert is not 'featureless' if you know it, it is the most beautiful landscape in the world, rich, intricate, amazing. Also, the desert is not dangerous if you are sensible and follow some very basic common sense rules. I think some people are exaggerating the dangers here. Australia IS a desert with green bits around the edge.

[mulgamick]

A couple of more points:

Aboriginal people definitely prefer fresh mingkulpa, they only use dried stuff out of necessity. I believe from my own experience that fresh stuff is stronger.

Mingkulpa is largely used by women only in aboriginal culture.

Mingkulpa is difficult to propagate because it is requires fire to help the seeds germinate. Its germination is related to fire/burning.

Kids as young as seven or so are regularly given mingkulpa. This is considered entirely appropriate and normal as mingkulpa is 'good' and a medicine.

You never pull mingkulpa plants out roots and all. Break the stem off near the ground but leave the root system there, it will resprout after a good rain. Only hooligans pull out the whole plant.

I would hate to see mingkulpa exploited like bush foods have been around here, lots of whitefellas making a fortune out of blackfellas culture and cultural IP. It would be a real shame to have kombi loads of whitefellas out bush stripping the countryside bare of mingkulpa and taking off back to the east coast with it.

[Torsten]

Originally posted by mulgamick:

Around Alice Springs, indigenous people use the word pituri when talking to whitefellas about various nicotiana species

Welcome to the forums mulgamick!!

Do you know which species in particular are used for pituri? I already have a few native tobaccos but would like to know a bit about their traditional use before comsuming them.

In various Western Desert dialects, the word for pituri is mingkulpa.

Do you mean that mingkulpa is the word used for Duboisia hopwoodii or for Nicotiana spp? (I assume the latter, but just wanted to be certain)

It is always perpared using the ash of particular trees.

As with many alkaloids that have high activity by being absorbed through the mucous membranes, the alkaline ash make a world of difference. The books are full of species used for this purpose and many of the first hand accounts don't seem to overlap in their species list, so I wonder if the numbe rof species used for making ash is really all that limited. Certainly some species would be more alkaline than others and some would also be more palatable than others, but all in all I wonder if there is much difference in what the ash is derived from. Do you have a list of species you are aware of being utilised for this purpose in your area?

When I have mingkulpa I can forget about my 20 year nicotine habit. Yes, it is addictive like tobacco

Probably even moreso as the absorption rate can be much faster and the effect much more sustained.

There is good and bad everywhere, get over it and learn to love yourself and your ancestors. Indigenous culture is no fairytale paradise, they had their wars, massacres and invasions long before we whitefellas arrived.

I don't think it is good to forget our legacy just yet, but certainly I agree that we often idealise indigenous cultures somewhat blindly.

Finally, the desert is not 'featureless' if you know it

I think that was the point - "if you know it". White raver city boy heading out into the desert could under certain circumstances be a disaster

I'm looking forward to it.

[mulgamick]

I can only speak about mingkulpa in the context of what people in Papunya and surrounding areas do, I lived there for two years and through the generosity of the locals learned all sorts of things about plants (food, firewood, mingkulpa, etc).

Mingkulpa refers to Nicotiana spp, I don't think we have Dubiosia hopwoodii around here, that grows north/east of us.

Species around here:

Nicotiana benthamiana

nornicotine to 0.5%, some anabasine

Nicotiana excelsior

preferred by Pitjantjatjara

Nicotiana glauca

Nicotiana gossei

This is the real McCoy as far as the Luritja mob are concerned. AKA Rock Pituri in English. Grows in mountains (puli) as opposed to sandhill country (tali). Luritja mob are very fussy about ash, they don't use just any ash (see below). Animal hair and sugar are both sometimes used as a binding agent for the wad. Nicotine content around 1.0+ %.

Nicotiana rosulata

AKA sandhill pituri.

Nicotiana velutina

Nicotiana megalosiphon

Nictotiana occidentalis

Nicotiana simulans

These are all considered weak. Common, but rarely if ever used for mingkulpa.

Different varieties seem to have different strengths in different areas.

Anangu (Western Desert) people I know only use two main plants for ash: itara (River Red Gum, considered 'cheeky' or strong/burning) and mantala (Acacia pruinocarpa or Black Gidgee, this is preferred. Ash is called 'ilmi'. All ash burns the inside of the mouth, but you kinda get used to it.

Many aboriginal people actually sit the wad of mingkulpa on their lips, but this is not considered a good 'look' for whitefellas. After a while, the wad is removed and put behind the ear, where is is considered to remain actively absorbed through the skin.

BTW, all the language words here are from Luritja, they would probably be the same in Pitjantjatatjara and most Western Desert dialects.

Several books with good info have been published in Alice Springs by IAD ... 'good', but not 'great' (not everything you would ever want to know. I'm keen to find out more about the dreamings associated with mingkulpa, almost nothing available on this subject in print, it is all in people's heads.

[mulgamick]

I keep thinking of stuff to add, here's a bit more:

Mingkulpa grows like crazy after fire. Like many Central Australian plants, fire helps germination.

In the wild, Rock Mingkulpa always grows in shady spots like in gorges and caves.

[mulgamick]

More:

itara and mantala both burn to a fine, pure white ash with no lumps, charcoal, etc in them ... pure white like bleached flour. The fire is fanned to promote combustion, and for some reason unknown to me, ilmi is only made in the afternoon (from say 2 until before dark). Twig sized timber is used, not big lumps.

BTW, Nicotiana glauca is an introduced species from South America. Apparently used in a similar way there.

[mulgamick]

Still more:

Rock Pituri likes rich soil and moisture, which probably why it is found in gorges and caves etc. Open country is too hot and dry most of the time. Where large, shallow bodies of water can evaporate in a few days in summer, pools of water can last months in deep narrow gorges that only see a couple of hours sunlight a day.

[mulgamick]

If you're going to play around with Duboisia hopwoodii (one of many plants known as 'pituri'), maybe you should check out what Centralian "straight" ethnobotanist Peter Latz has to say about it (he does not claim to know it all and readily admits that much of his info is really only hearsay):

- plants are high in nor-nicotine.

- leaves particularly poionous to stock, a few mouthfuls will kill an adult cow.

- used to poison/stun/slow down animals by adding to water holes. Birds appear more susceptible than mammals.

- appears humans can drink poisoned water with ill effects after a day or two.

- the pollen is reported to be highly poisonous and used in ritual killings.

So I guess I'm advising caution. I wouldn't touch it myself until a knowledgeable Aboriginal person had shown me the whole deal (location, preparation, administration, etc).

Location? Latz says western Queensland (east of me) and, new to me, south west of here (that'd be down on the Pit lands). He also observes that in the NT, most aboriginal people don't use it and prefer other types of 'Pituri'.

One point worth thinking about is that vast areas of the NT and northwest SA are not cattle stations but Aboriginal land requiring permits from Land Councils to enter. All areas I know about are either on Aboriginal land or in national parks. Come to think of it, the NT is ALL aboriginal land, national park or cattle station ... there is nothing else.

[Torsten]

Thank you for all that wonderful detail.

The twigs used for ash - is there any bark on them and if so is the bark stripped off before burning?

Henry's research appears to show that in regards to Duboisia mostly the nicotine rich chemotype is used and the nornicotine types are avoided. I am surprised to see that Nicotiana spp high in nornicotine are used in your area. But I guess the fact that N.gossei is favoured is an indicator that nicotine is nevertheless the preferred alkaloid.

Germinating Nicotiana spp it seems you suggest fire/smoke treatment, but otherwise fertile and moist soil with some protection from harsh sun? Makes sense.

[mulgamick]

In my last post above, that should read "NO ill effects on humans" after a couple of days.

At a local nursery here, they sow fire-encouraged seed in trays and lightly cover it with sand, then light a fire on top with paper, leaves, twigs, etc. When the fire is done they give it all a good soak. I guess the trick is to get the right amount of fire.

[gomaos]

At a local nursery here

a nursery?

do they have email or a phone number?