Torsten Posted August 19, 2005 only about 5 years later than planned, but the Wollemi Pine is finally ready for sale - and just in time for xmas too http://www.wollemipine.com/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jack Posted August 20, 2005 Any ideas on the cost? I cant seem to find a price on the website. Thanks [ 20. August 2005, 07:01: Message edited by: Jack ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Torsten Posted August 20, 2005 They were planning on releasing them in Japan first as there is a rich collectors market there, but I think this was not viewed kindly by the australian groups who helped with the project. The initial release for Japan was supposed to be 3 million plants. Mind you that was the plan 5 years ago and I would presume that like everything else in the project this has changed too. PBRed tissue culture plants of rare or economic value usually sell for about $30-$50 depending on size. They are usually not sold as tube stock. Given the huge publicity around the wollemi pine I would think it to be the higher end of the price range. Also, let's not forget that there will be different wollemi's. As they found out near the beginning of the project, shoots taken from a branch are prostrate in habit, while tip shoots result in normal trees. I'd expect the former to be relatively cheap and the latter to be VERY expensive. I would not be surprised if the initial release of upright trees is in the $100-200 range for foot high plants. I could well be wrong though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tomtom Posted August 20, 2005 how long would it take for cuttings to start getting around ..that would have to have some effect on pricing the following year or so? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Torsten Posted August 20, 2005 well, cuttings might root in a year or so, but don't forget this is PBR and will be enforced, so there won't be a lot of unauthorised public distribution. And again, if you are taking cuttings, you only get one cuttings per tree that will actually grow a tree rather than a prostrate shrub. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rev Posted August 20, 2005 quote: well, cuttings might root in a year or so, but don't forget this is PBR what a load of fuckin shite! somewhere , somehow somebody has lost sight of the function of the Pland Breeders Rights act of 1994 just how does a relict species found in a national park and clonally propagated satisfy the notions of Breeder??? not to mention the slap in the face of restricting propagation of this endangered plant to protect commercial interests [ 20. August 2005, 15:19: Message edited by: Rev ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Torsten Posted August 20, 2005 the act allows for uniqe specimen that are found in the wild by an individual to be commercially protected via PBR. Basically 'finding' something special is the same as breeding it in the eyes of the authorities. In terms of the wollemi I am not even sure if I disagree. It certainly would have never made it into a commercial tissue culture program if there wasn't the guarantee of protected markets, which in the end was a good thing. btw, PBR does NOT restrict non-commercial sharing/trading/swapping as far as I know. You just can't make any moeny out of PBRed plants. So, under these particular circumstances I don't have a problem with PBR. Once a PBR plant produces seed the seed is no longer PBR. With wollemi this might take a while Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
caludia Posted August 21, 2005 Rev: quote: well, cuttings might root in a year or so, but don't forget this is PBR what a load of fuckin shite! i totally 100% agree, this is absurd and a shining example of money over science.fancy protecting a critically endangered, newly discovered relic by placing such restrictions over breeding. absolute greedy lunacy, with a fair whack of bureaucratic power-hunger thrown into the stew Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tomtom Posted August 21, 2005 just the fact that there was a PLAN to distibute to the japanese market tells you its about bucks .. in a year or so we can buy our own trees back from them..haha oh yeah lets protect who ? go to the web site where it says what a great patio plant this will make .. very precious indeed ! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mecrhino Posted August 21, 2005 I thought the wollemi pine was auctioned at sothebys early this year for $1000's and the amount released was controlled. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Torsten Posted August 21, 2005 Initially the plants were supposed to be released in 2000, after about 3 years of research into their tissue culture. By 2000 they hadn't even managed to START propagating it because of all the technical difficulties with this species. If my experience with tissue culture is anything to go by then this project would have cost many millions of dollars and was only possible with commercial capital. Whenever you require such a huge investment from any industry it is only fair enough to protect that industry's market. Bottom line is that without PBR this species would have never become available in large scale or at reasonable prices (which it will be in a year or two). Furthermore, the PBR benefits the Sydney Royal Botanic Gardens to a great deal, which can't be all bad. I am a staunch opponent of PBR in most cases. This isn't one of them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rev Posted August 21, 2005 Torsten:btw, PBR does NOT restrict non-commercial sharing/trading/swapping as far as I know. Once a PBR plant produces seed the seed is no longer PBR. i am not sure about thiswe deal with some PBR cereal and pulse seeds at work and it says no propagation,breeding, sale, export or several other things is allowed http://www.ipaustralia.gov.au/pbr/index.shtml quote: Can I keep PBR protected seed to sow on my own farm? Yes. Seed may be kept for the producer to sow on their farm for their own usage. Subsequent seed (ie 2nd or later generations) or product from the later generations may not be sold/traded/bartered etc as propagating material without the grantees authorisation. quote: Once granted, do I have the PBR right in perpetuity? No. The PBR right is yours for a period of twenty five years for trees and vines or twenty years for all other plants provided you pay the maintenance fee and obey any conditions that may be placed on the variety. For grants made under the previous Plant Variety Rights Act 1987 all varieties were protected for twenty years. Once PBR or PVR has expired, the variety reverts to the public domain and is available to everybody. The limited duration of PBR rights ensures a balance between private and public interest. what i dont understyand is how they can slap a PBR on a whole species how does that justify this? quote: (4) Proof of distinctness is also a common problem. There is a clear need to provide the required information regarding, inter alia, differences between the new variety and the most similar varieties of common knowledge (ie its comparators). now with most plant types this would be ok because the act allows for breeding but if the whole species is PBR then where does one EVER find another variety to even crosspollinate with - and thus amke a new variety? - ESPECIALLY in a species that is regarded as having total genetic uniformity. quote: Genetics Research has not yet revealed genetic variation within or between the Wollemi Pine populations. source http://www.wollemipine.com/science.php and.. quote: Unique Characteristics The Pine's habit of spontaneously sprouting multiple trunks from its base (known as self-coppicing) has proved a vital defense in withstanding damage through fire and other natural disasters. Another unusual characteristic of the Pine, common to the Araucaria genus, is its habit of shedding whole branches rather than individual leaves. The distinct bark which resembles bubbling chocolate is also unique to the Wollemi Pine. http://www.wollemipine.com/science.php it looks like they are using the species caharcteristic to justify its uniqueness - not the special traits of any of their seedlings. what this means in theory is that i could find a new species and virtually own it for 25 years by classing the new species a a varietal dcovery based on its own holotype description I take the use of this legislation in this circumstance to be a complete abuse of its role and any chalenge to it would certainly be interesting in setting some precedents also at this database whic claims to have all PBR entries wollemia nobilis doesnt show up http://www.affa.gov.au/content/pbr_database/search.cfm quote: selected quotes The hard sell.. http://www.wollemipine.com/aboutwp.php quote: "Having a Wollemi Pine in the garden allows everyone to help conserve this unique endangered species." Dr. Cathy Offord, Royal Botanical Gardens Sydney LOL;) http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/20050...08/s1440303.htm quote: Ms O'Sullivan says it is one of the first wollemi pines to be planted in regional Queensland. "It will actually go to the Japanese gardens, which is very appropriate for the wollemi pine," she said. [ 21. August 2005, 09:21: Message edited by: Rev ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Torsten Posted August 21, 2005 Originally posted by Rev: btw, PBR does NOT restrict non-commercial sharing/trading/swapping as far as I know. Once a PBR plant produces seed the seed is no longer PBR. Your refs actually confirmed the first part, but yeah, you're right about the second part if the trait is sexually propagated. It's really the trait that is 'patented', not the strain, variety or species. If the propagant carries the trait then I guess it is protected too. Usually once a plant produces seed, if it still carries the trait and if the trait is randomly generated (ie genetic recombination) then the PBR does not cover the seed. The PBR right is yours for a period of twenty five years for trees LOL, they fartassed around so long that they've used up half their PBR peroid what i dont understyand is how they can slap a PBR on a whole species They didn't. As you know, the Wollemi Pine patch is actually a single genetic individual. It is only this individual that is protected. If someone finds another individual then this would not be PBR. now with most plant types this would be ok because the act allows for breeding but if the whole species is PBR then where does one EVER find another variety to even crosspollinate with - and thus amke a new variety? Well, as I said, I am sure it is not the whole species. But you're right, if the seed of this individual is also PBR then we simply have to wait 20 years. I'd prefer to wait 20 years knowing this species is safe and distributed (at the cost of being PBR) than have to worry about various competing labs shelving the project because it isn't profitable. - ESPECIALLY in a species that is regarded as having total genetic uniformity. It's not the species that has total genetic uniformity, but rather the patch of plants that happens to be a single individual spread out by vegetative propagation. As mentioned, there is a good chance that another one of these is hiding somewhere - or maybe not. it looks like they are using the species caharcteristic to justify its uniqueness - not the special traits of any of their seedlings. As there is no comparator I guess that's logical. what this means in theory is that i could find a new species and virtually own it for 25 years by classing the new species a a varietal dcovery based on its own holotype description Only if the full population of that species is genetically identical, ie if you found the last individual or vegetatively propagated patch. I take the use of this legislation in this circumstance to be a complete abuse of its role and any chalenge to it would certainly be interesting in setting some precedents Yep, it will set the precedent that no tissue culture company would touch such a project with a bargepole. In the case of the Wollemi pine quite possibly resulting in it's extinction. also at this database whic claims to have all PBR entries wollemia nobilis doesnt show up Does it actually say anywhere that it is under PBR? I think I was just making that assumption from the publicity in the late 90's. The hard sell.. http://www.wollemipine.com/aboutwp.php quote: "Having a Wollemi Pine in the garden allows everyone to help conserve this unique endangered species."Dr. Cathy Offord, Royal Botanical Gardens Sydney LOL;) I don't see anything wrong with this. If this plant stayed in the public domain then it would have required public funds to save it. This would have been the preferred option, but was not the way our political leaders see it and hence it would have floundered and become more and more endangered. if it was a public project then we would have all paid for it with our taxes. This way it will be paid for by those who care and those who have the cash. AS I said, I would have preferred the former option, but if that is not within the scope of our politicians then I'd prefer PBR over extinction any day. "It will actually go to the Japanese gardens, which is very appropriate for the wollemi pine," she said. I don't get how the Wollemi is connected to Japan other than the huge collectors market over there??!! [ 21. August 2005, 13:14: Message edited by: Torsten ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jack Posted September 21, 2005 The global launch of the Wollemi Pine is just a month away and to celebrate, the magic of the Wollemi wilderness will be recreated with 100 first generation trees at a special exhibition at Sydney's Royal Botanic Gardens from 14 - 23 October. The first ever sale of Wollemi Pines will take place on the last day of the exhibition (October 23) with an international Sotheby's auction of 292 Collectors Edition trees to be sold as 148 lots. These trees are the first generation grown from the original cuttings taken from the Wollemi Pines in the wild and will be up to 6 years of age and up to 2.5m tall. The 64 page Wollemi Pine Sotheby's auction catalogue, a collector's piece in its own right, is available now for only A$15 (within Australia) and A$20 (internationally). Visit http://www.wollemipine.com/news/catalogue.php If you live in or near Sydney, we hope you can visit the exhibition, a once in a lifetime chance to walk among the trees that outlived the dinosaurs. For more information on the launch visit http://www.wollemipine.com/news/global_launch.php . As you may already be aware, our general release of the smaller Wollemi Pine pot plants is still scheduled for April 2006 and we will advise as soon as you are able to place your orders. We value your support as Wollemi Pine Conservation Club Members and will make sure you are aware of news and ordering details ahead of the general public. Best wishes, The team at Wollemi Pine International Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Torsten Posted September 21, 2005 I would not be surprised if none of these first generation trees stay in australia. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Benzito Posted September 21, 2005 I know where I'll be during october. Me and my secateurs. Don't know how I'll get a tip cutting??? Take a ladder aswell? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rev Posted September 21, 2005 there appears to be a growing tendency for conflicts of interest There is only 2 patches known and these are identical. These are now PBR protected. They are in a nat park at a location kept secret and so you cant collect any other seed - thus keeping the single PBR claim exclusive ill be honest im not too fussed about the wollemi itself. To me its just a relic species on the way out thats clinging to its last refuge. Im not sentimental about it as extinction is a perfectly natural thing in this instance and the conifers as a group are heading that way as a general trend. The extinction of an extremely ancient and peripheral species rediced by natural events is not nearly the tragedy say of extinction of a species in its prime who plays a key role in major ecosytems - like Tigers, passenger pigeons or sandalwood. Unlike these 3 the wollemi is just a curiosity, unlikley to contribute much to native ecology and even less likely to foster future evolution . you all know i take some 'unusual' angles on conservation, that being contary to popular sentiment usually i thought the RBG comments on conservation were peculiar because it smacks of pure commercialism and has nothing to do with conservation. Ex situ garden conservation has very limited value - like exhibition zoos real ex situ conservation would be establishing populations along with associated soil, plant and insect cohabitants in alternative locations A tissue cultured plant grown in a garden bypasses any of this. The comments on the suitability of the japanese garden were similarly reflective of the situation the plant is being pushed as a collectible ornamental not for its ecological position The wollemi is not even what would be called a flagship species (think Panda, elephant, Birdwing butterfly, redwood) all creatures that capture public attention and by their need for expanse of intact habitat foster conservation of a great many other species and ecologies The richmond birdwing butterfly is a flagships species as it requires intact rainforest areas of high quality and sufficent size and diversity incl its rare host plants. It lives in several habitats upland and lowland and its publicity helps protect all these areas The wollemi is a single stand plant with little known and no promoted requiremnt for other species its survival is not dependant on in situ conservation - rather once its widespred around the world it gives very little emphasis to protect the wollemi nat park as its already been 'saved' - mission accomplished Thats not to say i think without PBR and TC this would have gone extinct anyway. After seeing how other living fossils have been redistributed worldwide (Gingko and a Metasequioa being relevant coniferous examples) No ones said seed is hard to germinate - the TC push is just for mass production on commercial timelines Im just seeing that the means to this end are very disturbing as it sets precedents and patterns of behaviour, abuse of the intent of legislation and conflict of interest between those meant to safeguard the commonwealth and those who exploit it by privatisaion this precedent is being set with the wollemi and many will allow it because its the wollemi but the partnerships and ideas it fosters can be applied to other things found in and made exclusive by similar partnerships [ 22. September 2005, 12:15: Message edited by: Rev ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
