Antrenom Posted January 15, 2004 I just finished reading up on Kratom and I am greatly interested in growing it,problem is I have no source and SAB doesn't have it in stock so im hoping one of you guys might be able to help me out? I would trade you something but im just starting out so supplies are low at the moment so if anyone has some seeds avaliable please PM me so we can work something out. Thanks in advance Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
planthelper Posted January 15, 2004 unfortunately most of the kratom seeds traded are not fresh, meaning they want sproute. seltenepflanzen.de sells those seeds, but i think they are not fresh. maybe you can ask when the next "fresh shipment" arrives. hope you can navigate this german site... [ 17. January 2004, 05:41: Message edited by: planthelper ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stonehenge Posted January 15, 2004 Cuttings is the way to go. Get a rooted cutting and you can have your own tree. I do. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Antrenom Posted January 15, 2004 Ok,thanks. Would anyone here happen to have a cutting to spare? PM me if you do. Can't really make sense of that german site,thanks anyway tho Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
planthelper Posted January 15, 2004 i could help you with a bare cutting or a rooted plant, just pm me! not a beginners cutting tho. the plant itselfe is ideal for beginners, you cannot hurt this plant by overwatering and it grows fast. [ 15. January 2004, 09:24: Message edited by: planthelper ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Torsten Posted January 15, 2004 It's not just that they ae not fresh and hence not viable, but more to the point is that so far ALL kratom seed that has been offered (except a small quantity of few hundred in a small circle in the US) has been M.parvifolia. The source of this is in India and he distributes to dozens of retailers. The source is well aware of this fraudulent offering, but is making a handsome income from it. I guess the fact that they are unviable is a blessing of sorts as it has kept fake product and fake live plants out of the market. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Antrenom Posted January 16, 2004 Hmmm,thats a damn shame,I was really hoping to grow it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Antrenom Posted January 16, 2004 Hey btw torsten,I dont suppose you know if you will be getting in any kratom products in? It says you specialize in it but you don't have anything in stock. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
planthelper Posted January 16, 2004 very interresting torsten, after fake kratom herb, now fake seeds. hardly can wait to, see this plant in flower. it's a very sought after cutflower, is'nt it!!?! [ 16. January 2004, 10:59: Message edited by: planthelper ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Plant Pimp Posted January 17, 2004 On an Enthobotanical website from my country they suggest that 'Mellow Gold' (The name given to the fake Kratom being sold last year) may be Mitragina parvifolia. Does anyone know anything about this? They did have seeds for this, but stopped selling them. I almost bought some before they found out that it was fake. It's good thing that I screwed up the order and didn't recieve(or pay) anything. I don't see why people would misrepresent this? Ethnogarden Botanicals (sorry for plugging another website, but their prices are alot higher than SAB's so don't worry) sells both Mellow Gold and Real Kratom for the same price. If Mellow Gold is active (like I've heard, but never known) shouldn't it be just as valuable? I certainly wouldn't mind having live specimens of both. Maybe it has to do with cultural reasons or name recognition? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Torsten Posted January 17, 2004 Replying to a few questions here: SAB DOES specialise in Mitragyna speciosa. This meant we sourced the plant, replicated it by the thousands and made it available to the australian and international market. At a time when the Thai government decalred that ti wants to eliminate this species from the face of this earth, we adopted it and thwarted their plan. It is now being grown all around the world by so many people in so many countries that it is simply impossible to eradicate. Mission accomplished! As far as sellign kratom herb to either the australian or overseas market, that is not what our goal was. We would have liked to see mitragynine being used in opiate addiction and in other research, but whether this comes from locally grown plants or from overseas doesn't matter much. We made kratom plants available to australians and O/S customers for over 2 years continuously, with little support from the australian community (most plants went overseas). Aussies were whinging about the price, while overseas customers were snapping them up as a bargain. Now for some reason the locals feel like they missed out. Go figure. What followed was an unexpected problem. We lost a big batch of plants in a storm and then waiting for replacements foudn that the tissue culture protocol wasn't working anymore. So for the last year or so we had no plants at all. We should have another batch ready at the end of this season though.... just in time for the new legislation Fake kratom.... a big lot of fake kratom entered the market almost 2 years ago. It is most likely Mitragyna parvifolia. You can read the blurb about the fake herb on this site. The fake seed originates with one company in India and he has been playing this game for over 5 years. I first caught him out on the "ethnobotany cafe" - that long ago! He is a greedy pig and will keep sellign this seed even thogh he knows full well that it is not the right stuff. However, he is also aware that the seed is unviable, so he can never get caught out! It's a small blessing for the community too or we would be flooded with fake kratom herb from various sources. There is also a decent amount of real kratom around right now, imported from thailand. Some of the US companies who bought plants off SAB also now sell the real thing. It is safe to say that probably all related species, inc the genera Nauclea and Neonauclea will have some sort of activity. Usually it is stimulation as a result of adrenergic effects. This would be the case with Mitragyna parvifolia. Kratom on the other hand acts on the opiate receptors and the effect is vastly different, although I can be stimulating in small doses. Mellow Gold is great if you're looking for an expensive (and unidentified) stimulant, but it is NOT kratom and will never have the full range of effects of kratom. While i have never tried the Mellow Gold, I like the stimulation caused by this group of indole alkaloids, so I am not being critical about this species. My criticism was purely about the fact that it was originally misidentified. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ave Posted January 18, 2004 did you notice that there are 2 different kinds of (real)Kratom on the market. the real one with effects by 3-4 gram dried leaves and a kratom where you need 20 - 25 gram. :confused: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
planthelper Posted January 18, 2004 i just want to say, thx to: darklight and tort we have this original: rifat clone! ----------------------------------------------- btw, no such thing as "white kratom", just a correctable nutrient defiecency. and i did my part too, multiple layers, multiple layers, clouds on top, and the red underneath. ----------------------------------------------- every cloud and red, is an active alkaloid, just so u understand my prosa. ------------------------------------- and allthou good at chemistry at school, all my current skills, are self thought. [ 18. January 2004, 06:51: Message edited by: planthelper ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Torsten Posted January 18, 2004 Ave, I have written a fair bit over the years on kratom and one thing I keep repeating everywhere is that harvest time and growing conditions make a lot of difference. Some people in cooler climates grow kratom in hothouses, which makes it virtually inactive. It is certainly stress that makes the leaves more potent. My observations that spring foliage is almost useless has also been confirmed by other growers. Summer foliage is the most pleasant, but autumn foliage is the strongest. I have heard of the great differences in commercial kratom dosage and I have no idea why this is so. Not knowing the origin of the weaker herb makes it more difficult to track down the differences. Adulteration is certainly one possibility, but it is unlikely. The kratom we get from our immature trees lies somewhere inbetween these two, so I am sure there is plenty of natural variation. I have some of the strong kratom here too and it seems a little different in effect. I haven't got any of the weaker stuff - where do you get it? [ 18. January 2004, 09:32: Message edited by: Torsten ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waterdragon Posted January 18, 2004 Torsten: Ave, I have written a fair bit over the years on kratom and one thing I keep repeating everywhere is that harvest time and growing conditions make a lot of difference. Some people in cooler climates grow kratom in hothouses, which makes it virtually inactive. It is certainly stress that makes the leaves more potent. not sure how this would apply. i get temps of up to 52 degrees in my hothouse in summer ans stress is easy to do -if 52 degrees wasn't enough. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Torsten Posted January 19, 2004 for kratom heat is not stress as it has a huge cooling potential due to its swamp living properties. Give it enough water and it can't get too hot. It doesn't like wind however... or anythign that causes the leaves to harden or even crisp a little. The leaves in a hothouse are flimsy, soft and sweet. take the same plant outside (in a shady spot) and they will firm up, bulk out and become VERY bitter. if you need to grow in a hothouse due to climate then do a single havest at the end of the season after the plants have been outside for the maximum time. You will find that as the nights go below 10 degC that the leaves will go very read and crinkly. This is when they are extremely potent. It appears that both the length of time they have been exposed, plus the cold temps have an effect on the potency. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waterdragon Posted January 19, 2004 much clearer to me now. ta. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gomaos Posted January 20, 2004 SAB DOES specialise in Mitragyna speciosa. This meant we sourced the plant, replicated it by the thousands and made it available to the australian and international market. At a time when the Thai government decalred that ti wants to eliminate this species from the face of this earth, we adopted it and thwarted their plan. It is now being grown all around the world by so many people in so many countries that it is simply impossible to eradicate. Mission accomplished!!! Torsten, my hero! That's one way of getting back at these sadistic dictatoric southeast-asian governemnts. Jeez they're even more "hateable' than our own government, because they don't even pretend to be "scrupulous", they're straight-out evil. How many poor people have been tortured and murdered by these bastards... and still are... and now because they decide, they want to "stamp out" whole plant species... fuck them! And our own govt officials who believe their lies about kratom! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stonehenge Posted January 20, 2004 I've noticed that my kratom's leaves have turned noticeably more red in the fall and winter which we are having now in the states. I've gathered some leaf about 1/2 oz but last time I tried smoking some it didn't seem to do anything. I don't like smoking a lot of vegatation anyway so I may try a tea. Kind of off topic but does anyone recommend a way to use it? I may end up trading the leaves away since I'm more into growing and cultivating than using the end product. During the summer the leaves were mostly green but in fall they started getting red as Torsten said. I notice new branches forming from time to time. It's getting so big I'm going to have to get a tent to protect it from the occasional frosts we get here. It's getting too big to bring inside. Anybody know if a light frost will kill it? Stoney Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
planthelper Posted January 20, 2004 i would not risk it. take a look at the plants around you, are ther bananas or papayas or icecream bean trees growing? if yes, kratom will survive. another good indicator plant are golden cane palms, if this palm suffers in your area in winter (fronds turn black after frosts) than its to cold for kratom. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stonehenge Posted January 21, 2004 I've seen papaya in this area, my father used to grow it but I don't see a lot. I know kratom doesn't like freezes but is 32 fatal or just a bit of a nip on tender leaves? I took it in last time it got below 40f and about killed my back. Anybody use their kratom leaves? I should ask this in another forum but we got talking about kratom. Stoney Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Torsten Posted January 21, 2004 a woody kratom will survive much lower temps than a green juicy one. I doubt it will survive frost, but can probably get pretty close to it. the reddening is a 'good' sign of stress. I find the red leaves to be much stronger. This should not be thought of as red being a different variety though. in my experience our single clone has shown the full spectrum from pure white to very red in different climates and soils. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest mandragora Posted January 22, 2004 Gomaos, the native erythroxylum australe is illegal in NSW, where it was born and raised. Our government ain't any better thatn indonesia. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gomaos Posted January 22, 2004 Our government ain't any better thatn indonesia. I would like to wholeheartedly agree, since I hate the right-winged howard Government. But I have to give them that much: In Indonesia people, women, men, children die on the street because they don't have employment. In Australia, we still have the dole and single parents benefit. So our government is still better - more humane- than in Indonesia. I'm not saying that Howard doesn't want to cancel these sort of services, and the only reason he doesn't is because then he would loose the elections. But if he gets re-elected, he will cut social security even more. That's why we have to vote green/labour. But sorry to say, the Indonesian Government, plus all other governments in the region are evil, because they don't look after their poor and are very corrupt. And you can quote me on that. Humans are more important than plants after all. Oh, and re drug plants: Don't be caught in indonesia or anywhere in the region, with for example, ganja... If you can't buy your way out, then it's off to jail, or worse... Those countries don't give a damn about personal freedom, even less than our own country... [ 23. January 2004, 03:22: Message edited by: gomaos ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VINS Posted January 25, 2004 quote: Torsten wrote: I have some of the strong kratom here too and it seems a little different in effect. I haven't got any of the weaker stuff - where do you get it? I had some of the fake kratom here too and it seems a little different in effect. I haven't got any of the strong stuff - where do you get it? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
