An anonymous bioassay

[Gunter]

I came across the following information the other day.

A female of about 60kg in weight reported the following effects from a piece of the Huancambamba Pachanoid sold as T. peruvianus small spine seeds. . These are her words.

 

quote:

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Things started to look like they were radiating energy. when I would focus on one object the surrounding area would seem to shift & grow larger or smaller so things would look mildly distorted. Red, blue & green neon colors when I would stare at an object. then when I would close my eyes the colors would stay & then start to shift like patterns. Lots of body high sensations during the night. I was pretty tired since I'm not used to staying up late so I tried to lay down and sleep. It seemed like I was dreaming even though I was still awake. I had my eyes closed, these dream situations kept changing and every now and then when I would open my eyes I would only have a vague idea or general impression of what I had just been dreaming. When I would open my eyes everything I looked at seemed to be glowing. My Mind kept racing over different thoughts, ideas and feelings all the while these dreams where taking place. Once I did fall asleep I had the impression that I had epic dreams only when I awoke I couldn't recall them.

 

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Can you guess how much material (fresh weight) was involved? The preparation method was coarse chopping, a boil of about a liter to reduction to about 8 fluid oz with a pinch of citric acid, filtered with a jelly strainer and that’s it.

How much material would you guess was involved for such effects?

[teonanacatl]

umm im guessing its rediculously low like 50-100g fresh?? a fellow once told me that if you eat cereus cactus you will have time distortions he wasnt talking about trichocereus either. i wish we could import cacti into australia

[M S Smith]

Having grown the "small spine" T. peruvianus "Huancabamba" (Northern Peru) from Mesa Garden seed it is likely they are unintended hybrids. I state this as the diversity of the seed grown plants is quite intense, ranging from plants identical to the "small spined" T. peruvianus in cultivation all the way to longer and more dense spined plants with even some differences in rib formation.

Though one moght easily say that the "small spine" and "short spined" plants are "pachanoid" is is quite clear to me that they are more similar in overall morphology to T. peruvianus. The small spines seem to make it easily lumped as "pachanoid," but the rib formation, areoles, and spines (though short) bear much more similarity to T. peruvianus in my opinion.

Though I do think that the short spined and small spine do in all likelihood have their own native population, and are not hibrids themselves, the seed from Mesa Garden isn't imported but grown by Steve (Mesa Garden) and a close friend of his who lives closeby and keeps a very large collection.

I'm not sure if they make efforts to prevent cross-pollination of plants blooming at the same time. It seems that the "small spine" T. peruvianus would be the mother, with the father being another Peruvian species, quite likely T. peruvianus as I can gather from observation of growth habits.

From what I understand the commonly available short spined T. peruvianus has not been shown to consistently bear high alkaloid concentrations.

~Michael~

[faslimy]

The short spine peruvianus in my collection is very potent, the material tested was from a mature specimen however.

[dracos6]

hey teo, you know what type of cereus that was?

[Gunter]

I had thought that the Small spine seed they had ( I bought it in 1998) was collected from pachanoid material from the area of Huancabamba Peru.

The seed grown plants have such a tendency for vigor and clumping (without topping) that they may indeed be hybrids as you suggest. In my experience hybrids between more diverse cacti tend to display rather uniform phenotypes, as do well isolated species such as scopulicolus.

It seems however that in hybrids between closer material and in "true" breeding feral populations, genetic diversity results in more variable phenotypes. Thus from a botanical and genetic standpoint, determining if a population is the result of a hybrid cross can be trouble if all that one has to go on is variable phenotype. Mendelian segregation ratios (if they appear) may be helpful however if the diversity of these cacti can be attributed to artificial selection then such ratios may be misleading.

Furthermore than n=11 in most of these cacti and that they are diploid (2n=22) means that phenotypic manifestation of the genotype may be the result of fairly complex gene interaction, thus making hybrid and specific evaluation based upon morphology very difficult.

My two most stable populations (in terms of stable appearance) that I have grown from seed have been SS02 X ? and T scopulicolus. One is a hybrid, the other a pure bred (presumably). My most diverse group in this regard has been T pachanoi (MG), though SS02 X T pachanoi and vice versa displays some variation as well.

I suspect that the diversity of the small spine peruvianus may either indicate that it is a pure bred plant of a semi stable population, or that its parental material is a cross. Diverse traits are far more likely for inbred populations than out bred populations between two pure bred parents.

Another extremely varied population that I have grown (the MesaGarden Grandiflorus hybrids) appears to be seed mixed from several parents, however a hybrid between two hybrids with diverse genetic material is also likely to be diverse in appearance. Once again artificial selection can complicate things to the point that only molecular evidence will clarify things, and even then bootstrap analysis is only probabilistic.

There is no substitute for accurate records of parentage. It is a shame we do not have more information about the efforts of the Ancient Andean cultivators.

I do have a problem identifying what T pachanoi is. I have yet to find T pachanoi seed that produces plants that seem to be pachanoid. Then again I seem to have yet to find T pachanoi seed having its ultimate origin in Ecuador. The source of the Mesa Garden T pachanoi seed remains a mystery to me, though you (Mike) may have just given me an important clue.

I use the term pachanoid for things that I cannot call pachanoi, but share many characteristics of pachanoi such as the short spines.

I do consider these all a single diverse species (akin to dogs) that I understand might be properly called T bridgesii according to the rules of nomenclature, or more properly Echinopsis lageniformis, however this notwithstanding I employ the following phenotypic distinctions (not as specific designations but rather categorical descriptions.)

They are Peruvianoid, Pachanoid, Bridgesioid, as well as Terscheckioid though I do view terscheckii as a distinct species from the former three. I could then call T. scopulicolus a Pachanoid, some seedlings of T pachanoi I have grown peruvianoid and hybrids between certain crosses such as a Bridgesioid X Peruvianoid (SS02 X SS01) as what ever their macroscopic appearance implies, though I keep them labeled too.

Of course the exact definition of species to be used it he Cactaceae is problematic, thus from one point of view if these plants are not diverse species in and of themselves, speciation is obviously taking place.

However geographic reproductive barriers and differing phenotypes do not a species make in any of the classical definitions, nor in any of the botanical definitions currently applied to cacti.

I do not believe for example that werdermannianus and terscheckii are synonymous forms, however I can call them both Terscheckioid without feeling bad about it. While I believe that bridgesii, pachanoi and peruvianus are all the same species they are all diverse forms, and can encompass many diverse forms as well and thus the "oid" categories are of little use taxonomically speaking, though they are very useful to me referentially speaking.

Like the common dog, these cacti have been shaped into diverse forms by thousands of years of artificial selection.

That a jack russell may bred with a Pug and thus make intermediate forms does not justify nor warrant calling jack russells and pugs two separate species. However to say they are the same is equally foolish. The problem of taxonomy of Trichocereus will not be cleared up without much work done on a molecular level as well as in the field. To some this problem is itself a mute point though for others like myself it remains an area of interest. I feel that it also holds clues for futher breeding strategies.

A very old book I have lists T pachanoi as from Ecuador and I have heard a population of this may exist there that is not feral but is actually native. Putting this Ecuadorian population aside for the time being... that the distribution of these sacred cacti so closely aligns with the distribution of the Incan empire and their forbears implies to me than many populations are but feral remnants of these ancient cultigens.

Having learned recently that the fruit of T peruvianus is active, the finding of human collected 10,000 year old fruit with cultivated pepper and bean in a cave in Peru seems to suggest that the knowledge of these cacti as psychoactive species may go back at least ten millennia. I should like to get a genetic test of this fruit done and compare it with extant species and forms.

This topic however is tangential to the one at hand and I have digressed far enough as it is. I do look forward to discussing the topic further though as I suspect we shall.

Anyway the material involved in the bioassay was 95 grams fresh weight, and was not significantly dehydrated.

[ 16. June 2005, 06:45: Message edited by: Archaea ]

[apothecary]

Archaea:

Having learned recently that the fruit of T peruvianus is active, the finding of 10,000 year old fruit with cultivated pepper and bean in a cave in Peru seems to suggest that the knowledge of these cacti as psychoactive species may go back at least ten millennia.

Link!

[Gunter]

No link, most of my information comes from books, I can link you to the book but cannot do more than that.

I can also dig up the page the info is on.

ttp://www.longitudebooks.com/find/p/843/mcms.html

The Incas and their Ancestors, The Archaeology of Peru

Michael Moseley

Lets just say that a lack of books on Incan cacti made me take a serious look at the Incan as I could through archaeology. They were amazing!!!

In my own mediocre Trichocereus growing guide I mention this, I shall include a quote of my own work. I am afraid the entire work is not good enough to share. Those I have asked to read it have not gotten back to me being either busy, uninterested or both. Perhaps one day after revision I shall make it available for now however it shall not be. It would seem that its focus on functionality was at the expense of its academic status.

 

quote:

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Some evidence does exist which may place Trichocereus peruvianus as among the oldest of the utilized and possibly cultivated new world plants. In the book The Inca’s And Their Ancestors by Michael Moseley is it mentioned that human collected fruit of T. peruvianus has been found that dates to about ten thousand years ago in a Peruvian cave (page 97). It might be noted that as far as archaeoethnobotany is concerned the fruit of T. pachanoi and T. peruvianus are indistinguishable. It is possible that the peoples of the time were aware of the entheogenic properties of the cactus even then. The evidence of the cave also shows that cultivation of plants including Capsicum and Phaseolus took place in the region around this time. It may be that the cacti were also cultivated deliberately or perhaps they were simply a useful part of the local flora.

 

Though it is often presumed that the cultures that employed San Pedro were lacking in agricultural knowledge, many plants exists which suggest quite the opposite. Perhaps it is often forgotten that some of the cultures of the American continents grew, developed and thrived for several millennia, allowing ample time to both make deductive observations as well as facilitate diverse cumulative developmental effects in regards to agriculture.

 

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Anyway there you go. Maybe after I read Trout's notes 3rd edition (which should arrive in the mail very soon perhaps tomorrow) I will then be able to use it for further revision of my own guide (if he will grant me permission that is.)

When my guide was written I had not ever seen any of Trout's good work. As it happens I have seen only his site, what he has posted here and a 3 part ER article. I am most curious what he thinks of the Incan Trichocereus connection.

[ 16. June 2005, 07:45: Message edited by: Archaea ]