cross pollonation

[jasemateau]

to start another subect relating to mesc content, i was pondering the thought of cross pollination and would this improve the ratios of mesc content?

what are the rules for pollination?

example i dont think one could cross pollinate a lophophora and a trichocereus.

does this sound stupid?

i thought atleast start a thread and perhaps and see what ya'll minds will come up with.

and what experiments have been conducted :D

[ 19. April 2005, 17:03: Message edited by: jasemateau ]

[gusto]

Perhaps someone with formal training in plant breeding science will offer a more educated response than I can provide. More closely related parent species should be much more likely to successfully cross. Offspring, both of whose parents expressed the desired trait, should be more likely to express the trait themselves. But I'd venture to guess that the laws of genetics could only predict, on average, the traits of the progeny. Testing of each individual would be required to know it's makeup.

Anyone know what the current understanding is in regards to the genetic determinants of alkaloid production in cacti?

[Flip]

While there are some inter species hybrids that have been proven valuable

One that comes to mind, is the Mule

-as a cross between a (f) horse and (m) donkey.

Unlike the above (which are both in the Genus Equus) ,

Lophophora Williamsii and the Trichocereus Pachanoi are in different Genus.

making the likeyhood of crossing success- more difficult.

However,

Since all the Trichocereus are all self-sterile

they must generally cross breed with another cacti from the same "species" or genus.

examples being, T.Pan x kk242 and juules x (n) have shown to produce viable seed.

To answer your question re: briinging out certain traits

that any resulting offspring may be able to produce

these two Wiki pages should help. Genetics overview and Mendelian inheritance

But first there must be (imho) a bit more in the identifying of preferred

cacti strains from which selective cross breeding can be best accomplished.

With time there will be some GM toying with the sequences

that go into producing this or that from different living things can be a bit more commonplace

[ 24. April 2005, 14:04: Message edited by: Flip ]

[Salvi]

So Flip, if all of my T. pachanoi cuttings are from the same original parent plant, they won't be able to produce seed with each other?

The other night I was pondering crossing a T. huascha with a T. pachanoi or peruvianus...

[marsha]

lophophoras i had growing grafted on pachanois devoloped many charecteristics of each other the pedro developed lil white hairs for spines and the loph looked a bit like the pedro its segments started looking straight up and down all the way to the top? i know this is nuffin to do with cross pollination but just wondering do the 2 combine? i have seen a lot of peyote grafted on to various rootstock and a lot appear to take on charecteristics of the host? thanks bye bye

[ 20. April 2005, 04:09: Message edited by: YoWiE ]

[Gunter]

While in most cacti n=11 and the reproductive barriers are typically superficial, the cacti in the BTC clade have specific repeats and segment deletions that make them unlikely to cross with cacti out of the clade due to genetic incompatibility. Trichocereus are in the clade, but Lophophora are not.

Chimeral forms can cause a stock and scion grow as one, but this is not the case with a graft, rather you must initiate meristematic division at the point of union, this can be done by careful grafting involving areoles, or hormonal initiation with cytokinin, both methods are prohibitive.

There is the option of protoplast fusion as well, also advanced.

Some Trich have tested about than 3 % dried mesc, not too shabby for plants that can grow a couple of feet a year. Superior I should think to peyote in more than one regard but that’s just my opinion.

[teonanacatl]

there are already many hybrids out there, think of all those plants that look all pach but there is somthing a little off. there is short spine scops and longer spine scops one of which trout labels somthing else i think. ive got scop X pach from gomaos and each plant exhibts different phenotypes, they are only 15cm tall and some are pupping. one could theorectially cross two strong strains together, but we dont know if high mesc is dominant or recessive. they would then have to grow all of the seedlings to maturity and test them all for alkaloid concentration, then they could do that again and again if they so desired. GM will come im sure and that will probably be the day when pedros become illegal. there growing environment would have a lot to do with their alkaloid make up i believe. the best thing to do for now is for people to get into TLC and test new species and for people when extracting to dry their cactus so a proper yeild can be found.

[Rev]

One needs to keep in mind suitability to climate as well

for example the pachanoi i have is pretty resistant to black rot whilst peruvianus and bridgesii are not so much

and the Omar strain of pachanoi at SAB while reputedly being a good variant with alkaloidal levels has poor resistance to black rot so is best grown in summer dry climates.

genetic potential for content needs to be balanced to disease resitance and speed of growth

peyote is strong but reacts poorly in cultivation with the other 2 factors

also a breeder might consider human factors like law chganges in wanting to alter the appearance of a cactus. A hybrd that has active parentage and has inherited alkaloidal properties but looks unlike an active variety might be desirable then

kind of like the red spored cubensis, the ducks foot MJ or a green flowered poppy

[Gunter]

Your on to something Rev!

Hybrids with short clumping flowering Trichos and the entheogenic ones may prove promising.

[jasemateau]

thats a great idea rev!!!!!!!!!

so only time will tell at the moment.

i knew this subject whould get technical and fly over me head, coping tho

was inially interested some expereiments been made

[woof woof woof]

so what are we looking for

quick growth

quicker flowering

higher alkaloidal content

fungus / rot resistance

what else

So now look for the interesting spp. and start crossbreeding / would be a good idea to get someone into Tissue culturing the varieties that we know to have the qualities we are after.

Someone to analize the alkaloid profile and content. So yes teonanacatl, we need people to get into TLC!

----

Heh - I would love strains that flower in hotter climates. My trichs have not flowered here

[Flip]

once a genetic sequence is found and verified

then it can be inserted in a variety of plants and animals.

How about a goat or cow that produces "whatever" in it's milk?

or a bacteria in a culture broth that spits out "more whatevers" back into it's culture?

These are the possibilities of Genetic Modification.

it's the old adage; "Knowlege is Power"

Cross breeding and slection is a tried and true method (granted)

However GM can give results rather quickly compaired to the

multiable generations required otherwise.

We just need the resources and know how to acomplish these goals.

Currently there is the whole debate about the GM "super strain' of coca

that produces 4x the amount of actives and is resistaint to US sponsored herbicidial spraying.

[ 24. April 2005, 14:07: Message edited by: Flip ]

[teonanacatl]

ahh just typed reply to have my comp reset. so here we go again.

this is what i think if anyone is serious and im willing to help in what ever way i can, but only to do legal things

random cross pollination could be carried out but i doubt this would achieve anything. what is needed is to find out as flip said what the mescaline producing gene is and whether its dominant or recessive. i also believe alkaloid levels need to be recorded over a year to gauge the yearly alkloid variations. standedised testing of different species grown in the same climate is the only way to gauge a potent plant, this rules out the alkaloid variation from climate and culture.

one must then find clones that carry the desired characteristics, eg less prone to rot, fast grower, high mesc producer.

i am currently growing plants to find strains that are less prone to rot(mainly weaping rot, i havent incounted any other kind) so i can leave plants in the full rain with no probs of disfigurement from weeping rot, cant sell them.

i dont believe that one will get a fast grower and a high yeilder in the same plant. so i believe one wants the highest ratio of both. the only way these clones can be found is growing in the same conditions. one couldnt compare yearly growth in tassie with yearly growth in FNQ. i good idea would also be a data base where people could post their %yeild of certain strains, there would have to be guidelines on how to carry out the extraction soas people folled roughly the same route, ie dry cactus first. TLC comes in here as a pure product would be better to compare. me! at the nook tested the purity of the brown mescaline crystals achived by most normal extractions and found it them to be 89% pure. that means in a dose of 500mg there is about 55mg of impurities so therefore your dose is only 445mg. (purity could be evenless for amatures)

if testing was legal i believe it would be easy to locate strong clones.

another problem faced is getting people to keep the names on their different strains, bloody impossible i tell you .

[Rev]

 

quote:

---

if testing was legal i believe it would be easy to locate strong clones.

---

yeah thats the sticker

its feasible enough to grow out 10 000 seedlings from many sources for 3 years

but whats needed is a high throughput sampling process

like a biopsy punch that takes the green tissue and allows u to run 5 to 50 samples at a time

giving a quantitative and qualitative profile

it needs to designed so that no illegal extraction is needed an dthe work can be completed full time in just a few weeks once testing begins

the very best clones can be cloned into TC and micropropagated

they can also be crossbred and teh process continued

We already have a potent strain - its called T bridgesii

but its also amongst the least rot resistant

a bridge/pach or bridge/scop hybrid interests me greatly

[ 22. April 2005, 16:58: Message edited by: Rev ]

[jasemateau]

does anyone have access to facilitys where these test can eb done?

there is no reason why the tests cant be done on a strain that a produces less mesc,as a project objective.

and the failure of the project would be the stronger strain. damn it!!! :D

just slide a couple o samples in doh!

where there is failure one will find success

[teonanacatl]

hmm this is interesting, would it be illegal to test for mesc???

your right rev just a hole punch to minimise damage. i dont think you would get funding from anyone in aus to do it and i doubt a university would allow it. one can do quantitative analysis with spectrophotometers but this might require some extraction and running known mesc samples through, which is breaking the law. this would require minimal material though but it would have to be dried and weighed. samples that showed above 2% could be labeled high potency.

the same thing could to an extent be acomplished on TLC plates. take a certain amount of dried powdered cactus say 1g and add a set amount of solvent to extract the mesc. the values would have to be the same across all tests. when ran with the same solvent on TLC there would be a varying size of the dot for mescaline, the bigger the more there is. very crude though. someone please correct me if im wrong.

 

quote:

---

does anyone have access to facilitys where these test can eb done?

 

there is no reason why the tests cant be done on a strain that a produces less mesc,as a project objective.

 

and the failure of the project would be the stronger strain. damn it!!! [big Grin]

 

just slide a couple o samples in doh!

 

where there is failure one will find success

---

extracting mesc no matter how much would be illegal and if testing was legal you might as well just test for the strongest one, both contain the same amount of scientific value. in most cases authorities are worried about the purity of you product they only care if it contains any. if you look at microgram the only tests done are qualitative.

[Flip]

Aside from being the lowest risk and cheapest route

individual backyard cross breeding of preferred strains

It's also the most time consuming...

For now, just for talking purposes:

1)

We all collectively encourage everyone (including noobies)

to raise all cacti from seed, so that we can establish a broad base

of genetic material to sample from.

Preferably seed coming from the wild populations and preferred plants.

2)

People keep track of their cacti (seed/trade source)

years of age and environmental factors.

to avoid duplications and wasted time/energy.

3)

For a rough (quick and dirty) screening of preferred traits

4)

Identify and obtain living samples (read cuttings)

of these standouts.

5)

Cross breeding and re-evaluation.

6)

Repeat # 5 again and again.

[ 24. April 2005, 14:10: Message edited by: Flip ]