My indoor Garden

[Salvi]

How's it going guys? I just thought I'd post up a couple pics of my garden. These guys are growing under a 400 watt high pressure sodium lamp. You'll notice some have some etiolation going on, they seem to do this sometimes after they root.. :mad: Any suggestions on that? I believe they're getting lots of light.

Most of these or Trichocereus pachanoi and peruvianus. You'll notice a hauscha (sp?) in the second pic on the left. Also there's some kind of pereskiopsis and some Sceletium tortuosum thrown in on the sides.

Any comments or suggestions are greatly appreciated!

Oh yeah, and that's a rooted pineapple top in the middle. Hoping for a harvest one day. :D

[ 17. February 2005, 10:12: Message edited by: Salvi ]

[zee_werp]

Hey man, your garden is looking great!! Gotta love indoor gardening, having the plants in your house. You should get some lophs in there as well As for the etoliation, it could be that they are getting put into full 'growing' conditions too soon after rooting, or even before they are rooted?? This is just a guess.

[ 17. February 2005, 10:54: Message edited by: zee_werp ]

[Salvi]

Thanks for the compliment. Of course, it doesn't quite compare to your collection.(I lurk on the shroomery) Yeah indoor gardening is great. I put them out in the summer, but I like to get some growth through the winter as well.

Yeah, that sounds quite possible zee. Perhaps I should hold off on the water and light somewhat until they're more rooted?

Maybe someday lophs will be legalized here so I can grow those too. Eh, wishful thinking.

[apothecary]

Beautiful.

I am just starting my cactus collection, 2 trichocereus bridgesii penis plants, a l. williamsi button, that cereus I rescued and a big fat round spiky thing that I haven't got a clue what it is, and all of its pups.

I'll take photos soon

Let me ask you something. Is it just me, or do you get lost too when you look at your cacti? Just brushing my finger over the smooth skin of the williamsi button calms me down, and I can sit and stare at my bridgesii's for about half an hour without realising it.

[Salvi]

Well, we're all guilty of staring at those penis plants from time to time..

Seriously though, I enjoy looking at my cacti and have to check in on them each day. I don't think you're alone on that.

I'll be looking forward to the pics.

[ 17. February 2005, 15:12: Message edited by: Salvi ]

[teonanacatl]

i find my self trying to look at them from as many different directions and ways as possible, i love sitting in my cactus house and looking at the seedlings.

[mr b.caapi]

staring at cactus for hours!! lol i thought i was the only one!!!

there definately is something calming about it.

very nice collection btw salvi.

p.s whats the plant in the red pot , second from right on the top pic?

[ 17. February 2005, 18:37: Message edited by: mr b.caapi ]

[smogs]

i have the best staring cactus! pity i cant take a pic

its a mammilaria and its so symetrical

funny how people are drawn to symetry.... its even noticed as a thing of beuty in peoples faces n stuff

also salvi cant you become a member of the native american way of the peyote church just by paying a small fee? then you legally can grow, store dryed and consume i thought?

anyone see them on john saffran... heres a snipped

"ohh yeah sure i used to chew sacks of the stuff when i was a kid... then i became psychic!"

[Flip]

Your etiolation may be caused by keeping the cutting in a low light situation.

from the plants perspective it's "reaching upwards towards the sunlight"

why grow thick when you're energy is committed to going up?

I do not believe that it has anything to do with it's lack of root system itself.

imo, as long as the cutting was well cared for and fed before

being removed from it's mother plant and kept in enough

light while healing.

it should not show any etiolation when growth renews.

[ 18. February 2005, 04:36: Message edited by: Flip ]

[Salvi]

Mr. B. that's a Pereskiopsis. I'm unsure of the species but it looks like P. spathulata to me. From the pic, I guess it looks like it might be something else.

Smogs, I'm not sure it's that simple. I think you're right I could become a member and stuff, but I believe that in the feds' eyes, you have to be a certain percentage native american etc., so it would still be illegal. Which I am only a very small percentage. However, I'll check into the details.

Yeah, Flip, I stored the cuttings in mostly darkness while they healed. I don't see why this would cause them to etiolate later though?

[smogs]

teonanacatl just did an experiment with 2 cacti, 1 in full sun 1 in 6 hours sun and the rest shaded. 6hr one grew taller but was etiolated. sounds related.

http://www.shaman-australis.com.au/cgi-bin...ic;f=6;t=000674

how much light are they getting and perhaps its not strong enough?

also another factor could be the spectrum, i know that usually plays an important role in how bush or tall plants are but no idea how it works with cacti

[apothecary]

Well said Smogs,

HPS lights are on the red end of the spectrum firstly, which isn't perfect for cacti (unless you're flowering them you want them under a 400W Metal Halide).

Secondly the "intensity" of a HPS light only goes 3 feet, directly down. So if your cacti aren't within that 3 feet range, it's getting a very low intensity light.

That's the thing I don't like about High Inensity Discharge lamps like HPS and MH. They're only high intensity for 3 feet, and the last 0.5-1ft before the lamp is so hot as to either burn or completely bleach the chlorophyl right out of the plant (yes I've seen this happen with several plants who got too close to the lamp without burning).

[Salvi]

The light is on for 14 hours per day. The ones that etiolate are definitely within the 3 foot range (except for one). Also, I did have them under a 400 watt metal halide lamp until recently. I decided I would see what a change would do. The etiolation occurred with the metal halide just the same.

Yep, HID lights have their downsides, but I think they're the best you can do for indoor lighting.

Thanks for the thoughts guys.

[Flip]

Salvi,

Well from my perspective, There is no reason to place a fresh cutting in the closet.

I really don't know where this came from of what the thought is behind it... perhaps, another can help out.

Anyway, I believe the lack of light sends the plant the signal that at it's current height

there is a inconsistent and or inadequate amount of available light available.

It's only recourse is to reach up asap.

This is set for the plant and only after long term extended reassurances

that there will be no further light shortage will the cacti thicken to full girth.

Take it from the plants perspective, In nature, the only reason

why a plant suddenly goes dark is because some other faster

growing plant is blocking and eating up the available light

or if something has fallen in way.

Either way, the logical solution is to grow upwards fast

and hope that you can get more light before it starves to death.

[ 18. February 2005, 11:18: Message edited by: Flip ]

[Salvi]

Well, the only reason my cuttings are put in the dark is that the counter where I put them happens to get no lighting. I've always figured it was no big deal since they weren't actively growing.

However, this is quite unnatural and you're probably right Flip. I'll see what kind of results I get when keeping them in a lit location while callousing/rooting. Thanks.

[Flip]

I didn't mean any offense salvi,

my comment was more, regarding the advise I've heard from others

regarding placing cuttings "in the closet".

I've got two cuttings sitting on the bar in the kitchen

the light could be better -for sure.

but this is only because it's a cool and dry place

to let them heal up for the week.

afterwards they're either going to stand up outside against the wall

or into the office for "long term" storage and dry rooting.

best of luck!

[apothecary]

Uh, the reasoning behind putting cuttings of all kinds, not just cacti in reduced light is so their growth cycle slows down.

It isn't as visible with a cactus, but if you try taking a cutting of another plant and leave it in the same lighting conditions as its mother plant, it'll simply continue growing rootless until it dies. There is nothing the plant can do about that, if it recieves light, it has to convert it to energy. The only way it will root is if you slow down that energy conversion cycle to give the root mass a chance to re-establish its ratio to stem/leaf mass.

If you want to take an example from nature, let's actually think of where a columnar cacti like a T. pachanoi or similar is. In the desert, there is no "competition" for light. We aren't talking about a rainforest here... If there's something obstructing the light, it's most likely another branch of the same cactus, or the parent cactus itself.

I think Etiolation is caused (although I'm having trouble getting much information from google on the issue) because the cactus is so far removed from its natural cycle. Think about it. In nature, if a branch of cactus breaks off because of wind or an eagle who had too much rabbit for lunch, it doesn't lie in the dark and then prop itself upright to form a healthy a rootbase.

The cactus will form its roots from where the fresh wounds harden (I wish vascular plants would do this sometimes, it'd save me money on rooting powder [that's what rooting powder does if you didn't know]) and simply pup, perpendicular to the ground.

When you take a cutting of cactus, and lay it on its side to dry, the cactus knows what to do. Then you prop it up and suddenly it realises it doesn't need to pup and everything is ok again. It confuses the cactus and takes a while to sort itself out the way it should be.

I believe that's where the etiolation comes in. If the cactus isn't in just right conditions mid/post-rooting, its growth pattern will mess up for a while until everything is straightened out.

Now you might say "well not all my cacti etiolate when I take cuttings" and I'd say that it probably does a little, but not enough to be noticable.

[Salvi]

There was no offense taken Flip, I guess sometimes it's just hard to convey your thoughts/feelings on message boards.

cheers :D

[teonanacatl]

in your situation i would say etioliation is caused by adjusting to your conditions. this is a pic of 2 cereus i got, see the new growth that occured in my growing conditions.

http://au.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/kaleidosc...531.jpg&.src=ph

that cereus fell over a week ago and snaped at the new growth, grew 70cm in 4 1/2 months.

if it worries you dont water and fert as much.

[Salvi]

Yeah teo, you can see how it got skinny then plumped back up. You have a nice collection there.

[Flip]

apothecary,

 

quote:

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Uh, the reasoning behind putting cuttings of all kinds, not just cacti in reduced light is so their growth cycle slows down.

 

---

well by that logic, it would also inhibit the ability of the cutting to form roots.

wouldn't it? then there's no advantage.

 

quote:

---

It isn't as visible with a cactus, but if you try taking a cutting of another plant and leave it in the same lighting conditions as its mother plant, it'll simply continue growing rootless until it dies.

---

well, that doesn't quite make sense.

Perhaps, you're thinking the likelihood that any broken branch

falls to the ground with (less light availability) as the rooting tigger. Otherwise the conditions are going to be the same

for the mother and the "clone". If a plant has evolved to be able to root from a cutting/leaf (as often is the case) under these circumstances then that theory is incorrect.

I can't see how your reasoning makes sense.

I always thought that any cutting is placed in a brightly lit, protected (humid) environment

so that it it could still be protected from greater evaporation

from it's leaves then it was able to offset. all the cuttings I have made don't continue to grow developing leaves... they abort.

I believe the availability of water going into the plants system is the major factor here..NOT LIGHT.

 

quote:

---

 

There is nothing the plant can do about that, if it recieves light, it has to convert it to energy.

---

don't you mean it converts light (energy) and stores in a chemical form useable by the plant?

Also, it requires h20 molecules to complete that process

check the photosynthetic pathway... you'll see.

the process will halt if one of the steps is broken.

 

quote:

---

 

The only way it will root is if you slow down that energy conversion cycle to give the root mass a chance to re-establish its ratio to stem/leaf mass.

 

---

Huh?

I thought we we're talking about stimulating a cutting into rooting... there is no root mass to talk about.

also

Are you saying you're trying to halt it's ability to capture energy and produce food for itself so that it can expend it's limited resources and produce roots? (this sounds of shroomery logik?)

wouldn't it be better to continue to let any cutting produce food for itself and apply that to root production?

So long as it's not water starved (read wilting) you're not stressing the plant more than required.

maybe thats why it's customary to place most softwood cuttings

into water until rooting occurs.

 

quote:

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The cactus will form its roots from where the fresh wounds harden (I wish vascular plants would do this sometimes, it'd save me money on rooting powder [that's what rooting powder does if you didn't know]) and simply pup, perpendicular to the ground

---

I think that your first point is misattributing the fact that a cutting

tends to root at the end of the plant, that just so happens

to be where it was separated from it's mother plant.

in vascular plants (including cacti) there is two way traffic

the inner layer carries water and "raw materials" up from the root system. The outer layer transports synthesized materials down.

According to my reasoning (stated in posts in another thread)

hormones that stimulate root production are carried "down" the length of the plant. They stimulate rooting because they gather

at the terminal end of the vascular pathway.

Rooting at the gravitational bottom can be explained by the interruption of the vascular transport system and "pooling".

vascular plant do self propagate (rooting from cuttings).

rooting power is a hormone mutagen.

it actually changes cell structure, it's doesn't "activate" dormant root cells, but changes cell types. The callous caused by rooting powders/hormone are different than a healing over of a wound.

they're tissues that have been mutated and trying to re-organize themselves.

due to a cacti/succulents structure

I've said that external application of rooting hormone

causes more harm than good on our cacti.

 

quote:

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If the cactus isn't in just right conditions mid/post-rooting, its growth pattern will mess up for a while until everything is straightened out.

---

no matter what. making a cutting seriously affects the branch cut. The immediate loss of water and overall "shock" has to have a reaction.... and as I've said before all my cuttings have aborted new leaf growth asap.

I think that the main thrust of the topic was how to minimize

the effects and etiolation.

sorry about the long post, thanks for reading

.. I'll edit it down in a hour or two...

[teonanacatl]

putting in the dark is so that callus is formed without it growing because without light growth is slowed, the callus that forms on cacti is different to rooting callus that forms fromthe cambium on other vascular plants, it isnt done by the plant it happens by the drying of the area and drying before planting is supposed to stop in entry of disease.

when rooting other vascular plants you:

leave as much leaf surface area as possible so that it wont wilt and die from high transperation, the more surface area it can support the quicker it will root because the more photosynthisising it can do.

increase humidity so that water loss through transperation is decreased and more surface area can be supported.

decreasing heat would be better then decreasing light because decrease heat decrease transperation, the easiest way to decrease heat is to decrease light intensity.

as far as i new rooting hormone encoraged callus cells to form that would produce roots, happens naturally but sometimes would take to long.

plants dont always produce roots from the bottom of the cutting or the callus material. calea produces roots from the nodes only (in my experience) where as if u take kratom cuttings below anode it forms large amounts of callus but dies before roots form, however with single node cuttings the roots spring out of the internode. as with all plants roots are produced from the cambium layer and from callus formed by the cambium. hawiian baby woodrose single node cuttings for a mass of callus where the roots form from.

when we talk about cacti forming callus it isnt callus from the cambium but mearly the drying of the tissue as i said before. roots dont just come from this area they come from the sides as well but all lead back to the cambium. see the other thread about rooting large cuttings for more info on root formation.

i believe water is the key to rooting anything, why would a plant grow roots if there is no water????

salvi did the cuttings that etioliated come from plants that were use to your conditions or from plants from outside or other conditions???

[Caldeye]

teonanacatl:

i believe water is the key to rooting anything, why would a plant grow roots if there is no water????

True for non-succulent plants, but not for cacti. They can afford it, having that much water inside.

A fat pachanoi cutting put on a dry shelf would eventually start to form roots out of the bottom part (the one that gets less light, hence, more auxins).

 

teonanacatl:

the last 0.5-1ft before the lamp is so hot as to completely bleach the chlorophyll right out of the plant (yes I've seen this happen with several plants who got too close to the lamp without burning).

The same thing happens to the tops of the plants I grow under fluoros. So do you think it's just overheating and not light intensity? Then maybe adjusting a fan blowing over the tops would help?

[Salvi]

 

quote:

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salvi did the cuttings that etioliated come from plants that were use to your conditions or from plants from outside or other conditions???

---

They came from inside (they were use to my conditions). However, the conditions they are in now are bound to be somewhat different. For example, I took these cuttings because it was impossible to light such a tall cactus evenly with a lamp. Therefore the tips were getting too much light/heat. (This actually seemed to cause etiolation).

Also, the cuttings sat in a dark environment for a few weeks before they popped roots out. So going out and into that environment is bound to cause the plant to be a little mixed up I would think.

[teonanacatl]

i would say some etioliation can be expected but some of those look to have suffered alot. a little etioliation might occur in the dark but putting back into full light shouldnt. once bigger the reason they would grow more etioliated is the heat would speed up the growth but the lights arnt strong enough to suport the increased growth. you could try watering less and reducing the temps a bit.