pituri? (D. hopwoodii) - an imaginary reality check

[Torsten]

Originally posted by JumpedAngel:

i have been toying with the idea of re-naming myself 'Mulga II'

Yes, you do share many similar traits with Mulga. Except may I say Mulga has always shown utmost respect for the traditional owners of this land. I doubt he would ever insult aboriginal people the way you do in this post.

so whatever u choose to 'believe' of this 'tradition' will always remain questionable in 'fact' including this 'new' word 'kudna', where did u reference it from?

I will get back to you with that. I forgot to ask about the reference. But I need it for my records anyway, so will happily provide at first opportunity.

putting words in my mouth?

No. We've only had 3 or 4 threads on the topic, so surely you can find that instance yourself.

as for 'unpublished scientific evidence', u will have to excuse me once again for the poverty of my 'academic' education but i never heard of such a thing, i knew that the rules for creating 'proof of evidence' within these 'academic' sciences was preaty lax but i never heard of anything like 'unpublished creadible scientific evidence' in any science

A chromatogram of a sample can be passed around the scientific community and is important evidence for anyone working in the field. It does not have to be published in a journal to be of such use. Ideally it should eventually be published, but as many theses take 3 or many more years to finish you can't expect everything to be available to everyone instantly.

Furthermore several people are writing books on australian ethnobotany. You may not be privvy to advance copies, but many of us are.

The knowledge documented in these papers cannot simply be ignored by those who have access to them just because you are unaware of them. If you did serious research in the field I am sure you would be provided with these materials too.

'Accounts of the role of pituri in Aboriginal life are incomplete...'

Doh! And here I thought ethnobotany was a science where everything was 100 percent documented from time immemorial...

Seriously, there is virtually no field in ethnobotany that is fully and hisotircally documented. The point is to preserve what is left and to maybe work out a little bit more.

it is imposible to conclude with any degree of certainty that it was the drug 'nicotine' which was originally being targeted

As I said before, if you had any understanding of the chemistry you would have realised by now that I believe at least one traditional preparation of pituri was probably devoid of nicotine. So obviously I am not stating what you are infering.

in the now completely 'lost' original 'traditional' preparation/s

They are not completely lost! You haven't done a lot of research on this have you?

what i am saying is that ALL the old records are tarnished in some way, useless, pointless and virtually valueless

Hmmm, just because something is tarnished doesn't mean it is valueless and pointless. If all ethnobotanists thought that way this science would have never worked out much at all other than non-historical use.

therefore, seeing as we now have access to the plant again and a little experiencial knowledge to guide us, we can simply assimilate the herb anew....

Hey, that's cool. It what I do in terms of chemotaxonomy all the time.

i would have thought that u might instead encourage these same people to take care when ingesting Bufotenine nasally rather than show praise and admiration as u have recently done if indeed your motive is trully 'safety'.

The intranasal ingestion of bufotenine snuffs has a long history and is thoroughly documented. Of course it is not safe, but neither is drinking coffee if you don't do it right. I happen to know the person and know he is quite knowledgable and capable. Anyway, I was providing cultural information which is what this site is all about.

what fucking traditional knowledge?????...

Doesn't your stance mean that there is really no aboriginal knowledge anymore as all of it wold be tainted. And as you already said we need to 'pull their heads out of the bottle' so they can see the (white) light?

Your pathitc atempts to wind me up are not working, but this sort of fucked up racism makes my blood boil :mad:

i said we should start from scratch and re-build the knowledge

Actually, this time it is my turn to ask where you apparently said that. I've read your previous posts and it doesn't say so anywhere. You have never said to start from scratch. If you had, we probably wouldn't be arguing as that is what got me peeved in the first place.

And why do you think that you could discover what might have taken hundreds or thousands of years to discover if you are not taking at least some guidance from what remains of the traditional knowledge.

and i have assayed the stuff first hand over a decade

I guess in your eyes that makes you more qualified than the elders who have used it all their lives?

this statement shows clearly that u and henry and even adrian are 'stoners' rather than 'ethnobatanists'

LOL. You are the one who got addicted to your stuff for a year. And to ciggies for longer. And who knows whatelse. Neither Henry nor myself take anything regularly. Henry likes the occasional beer and I will occasionally dabble in whatever interests me at any one time.

No one who has ever encountered me has called me a stoner, which shows just how little you know about me

so is nicotine non-toxic?

No, but its traditional use is well documented and the dangers are well known.

especially in these highly refined varieties that u are distributing without any kind of warning?

What are you taling about? The only person who has traded any nicotine containing material has been you! We have not sold or traded ANY!

(And if/when we do it will certainly have a health warning on it.)

what am i, some kind of fucking pimp?

Who knows. I don't.

like when u asked for my photos of the plant in the desert perhaps?

Ah yes, I almost forgot about that one.

I forgot that I asked you for a pituri pic for the non-profit Ethnobotanica Journal and that you weren't interested unless you got paid for it!

u give no bio-assay report?

Nope, because my own bioassays were not nearly as interesting as some other people's and I am sure they will write the reports in the near future. I keep my report writing for very special occasions.

or recomendations of any sort whatsoever on how the herb can or should be consumed?

Nope, because we don't sell any.

u have your banner of 'ethnobotanical safety approval' to hide behind

It's nothing to hide behind. People interested in ethnobotany put their trust in tradition if they chose to consume these things. That does not make them safe, but it does make them a relatively known quantity. Betel nuts aren't safe and neither is tobacco, or just about any ethnobotanical for that matter. But the traditional use provides us with a bottom line we trust in.

tell me dude, where is your banner of 'ethnobotanic responsibility' hiding?

Why do you think we provide pharmacological and cultural data on most of our products? Why do we run these forums? Simply so that information can be exchanged about the safety and dangers of ethnobotanicals (regardless of whether we sell them btw).

i'm just wondering what some formal body like the anti-cancer council, for example, might do with u if they aquire the said documentation and decide to make an example of u, be grateful that u only have me to deal with (for the moment).

That sounds like a threat. Yes, it is in fact a threat. You are not only a racist, but you are also a traitor. This post has been very enlightening.

again, what and whose fucking current research, yours???, then publish the fucker at least!

You just don't listen do you? No, not my research. I have no intentions of publishing anything on pituri. There are plenty of people who are in a much better position to do so. Some names I have mentioned. Others I don't even know, but just know some of the analyses and experiments they have done.

the only reason they learned anything of their 'tradition' is because we pulled their heads out of the fucking bottle for long enough for them to learn how to read, and if they ever really 're-discover' how to prepare the herb then it will be again because they 're-learned' it from the white-man who at least bothered to record parts of it

This is the second most disgusting thing anyone has ever written on these forums. If you thought this thread has been hijacked, I wonder just what the response to this sentence will be.

From my perspective it just reinforces your disrespect for the traditional owners of this knowledge and the traditional owners of this land as a whole.

in this particular case it will be interesting to see if they go 'power happy' and try to claim this knowledge as being their 'sole' right under copyright law

It's not copyright law, but I am sure you know that. In fact, I hope that they do make use of this knowledge for their own gain somehow. I am against patenting plants, but as everyone else is doing it it seems only fair that the traditional owners get the same opportunity.

or weather they themselves would want to face the responsibilities which now go with clear carcenogenic consequences.

Just because something is carcinogenic doesn't make it instantly illegal. Or you would not be allowed to toast you bread in the morning or drink your coffee.

i am painfully aware of the various shit fights these people with whom u claim such admirable empathy have already caused in various courts of australian law

Now I understand your reference to the Hindmarsh issue earlier. Sorry, but in my wildest dreams I never thought we could have such a racist white supremacist on these forums and hence I had no idea which angle you were asking from. It all makes sense now.

i dont mind giving them rights, if they dont mind crawling out of the fucking swamp and joining us.

Oh lully! You're in full swing tonite.

Given what sort of scumbag you have shown yourself to be in regards to aboriginal rights I am not so concerned about having pissed you off anymore. Having racists as enemies is definitely better than having them as friends. I wonder how Mulga would feel about you comparing yourself to him. He is almost lovable in contrast.

u on the other hand 'do' claim to be useing and distributing a preparation made in accordance with some native 'tradition'

I am not distributing! You must be a bit thick. Are you sure the kudna hasn't done you any damage?

We had a long discussion not long ago about how I am not selling any of this herb. So why keep stating the opposite?

As for 'preparation', we know that the current elders and others consume the stuff straight off the plant or after simply airdrying. There are also other preparation methods, but I do not have all the relevant detail nor am I in a position to share them. I never claimed to have made any traditional preparation except the simple airdrying process that is still used today.

but offer no proof of evidence as does this Henry character u speak of so highly

Henry showed photos at EB2 and EB3 of how the local women ran up the hill, picked the plant and then chewed it right there. I don't have the photos, but I am sure they will be in his thesis. Again, this material IS 'scientific' proof even if you are not privvy to it yet.

so how is it that u can get away with stealing 'their' tradition for the sake of your business profits, hmmmm? please explain.

You never listen do you. I am really wondering just how much damage you have done to your brain already.

I am personally NEVER going to sell it for my profit. This is a promise I made in order to get access to the vast amount of information and help I have been given. My plan is to set up a special non-profit organisation to farm and market this product sometime in the future. If successful it will employ aboriginal people only and all profits will be given back to the aboriginal communities of the pituringa area, where it is sorely needed. Ultimately the money should be used to buy the pituringa land back for the traditional owners. That's how I would like to see it anyway, but I am leaving the decisions about this up to people who know more about the situation than me. I am merely opening the doors to make it possible.

i understand perfectly well your argument over semantics, however the stuff i sent out as a sample for analysis is no less a preparation made from the 'pituri bush' than yours.

Duboisia hopwoodii is called pituri bush out of ignorance. In other areas it should be called emu-poison bush, because that was its use in those areas.

and yours can never be demonstrated to be any more 'traditional' than mine unless u 'bend' the word 'traditional' to include 'only recent tradition'.

I am happy to take tradition form the last 100 years or so as 'traditional'. I would like to see it go back much further, but I doubt there will be sufficient documentation or knowledge. I am however hoping that maybe there is some knowledge about pituri that still exists and that the white people are just not privvy to yet. I think if this was ever presented it would be quite obvious whether it is fake or real. I think the ritual pituri is a very different beast and I if it still exists and is shared with us then it will become quite obvious just how traditional it is.

But if I am wrong then I can live with that too and we'll just keep chewing the stuff wit the preps we know

'exciting and new things'?, but then again u will never say who or what these are

Considering how little of what I have said actually is remembered by you why should I bother providing more detail to you?

And it seems everyone else is patient enough to wait for the due release of the information by the people who have found it.

I get told a lot of things in confidence well before it is made public and I am not jeopardising that privilege for the sake of making a point to you.

are u sure they arn't just 'brown noseing' or pressing the T button?

LOL

I am talking about deans of faculties, members of the state science committee, and highly respected commercial analytical chemists. Shees, I'd lick their boots just to spend a week with them at work

can u even name one who isnt affraid to come out of the shadow and face me and stand accountable

They are not afraid. They just don't know you. And they are not on these forums. I get to talk to them one or so per year and I am hardly going to waste my precious time with them by wasting it with you!

reference which cites 'the' two 'moulds' which are known to have produced toxic by-products on herbs on a historical basis

It's getting late and I will get back to you on this one tomorrow.

some folks arnt quite up to keeping their word as i am, and i sent out drupe as quickly as i could to keep it as fresh as i could in all good faith, however some folks it appears maintain the right to change their offer after they recieve what they want

You obviously didn't send them out THAT quick, cos I still don't have mine.

i tend to put individuals of this type onto my black list, never to be acknowledged again

Damn, I wish I would have sent you the wrong thing....

i have mentioned what i think of your fucking precious traditional knowledge havent i?

Oh, loud and clear.

as i have seen reference to 'Henrys stuff' mentioned elsewhere on your site, so was this stuff traditionally prepared?

It was dried just like the local women dry it.

oh please do tell, i wont cast a slur on Henry, i promise, not until he crosses my path and reveals his motive anyway, hehe,

I doubt Henry would bother with you for long. Then again you might just push the right buttons to get shredded by him (intellectually of course).

so tell me, have u ever advertised EB on the basis that Henry (and his preparation) would be there?

Henry was a late addition to EB2. And for EB3 we did not kow he was bringing pituri until I met him at the airport.

did you ever allow, encourage or facilitate the distribution of this substance through one of your 'business ventures'?

No. He did however hand it out for free at the non-profit event EB3.

and did you ever distribute your own 'traditional' herb at said venue/s

No.

, oh do tell, do u feel guilty about something perhaps?

Thought you cauhgt me out but fell flat on your face. Geez you're dumb. The answer to these question have been covered in previous threads on this topic.

i would urge u to be certain of your facts before making accusations along these lines as i think that u stand more to lose than i do, especially when useing such words as selling and marketing and implying that i am in some way profiteering?

Yep, as I said, I have not sold any, nor traded for it. Not even to cover my travel expenses. My conscience doesn't allow that. I have no itentions of profiteering from something I have no right to.

refresh me, which particular 'disagreement' was that?

As I said, there are only a few threads on the topic here and EA and if you are too lazy to look for them and too braindead to remember them then I am certainly not going to waste my time doing it for you.

u didnt make them public till after mine died and even then it was preaty sketchy stuff, (no pics.)

I posted my cult notes on EA as soon as you posted your pics. I am sorry if you can only 'read' pictures, I thought text was enough for such a simple concept. You were too hung up about the plant being an epiphyte or symbiot or whatevr it was to listen to anything else.

[ 04. January 2005, 01:39: Message edited by: Torsten ]

[Darklight]

JA, this thread is locked. Ugly racist shit has no place here.

If you wish to continue as a participating forum member here, email me and I will unlock the thread so you can alter it. I am removing your access rights until you do.

[Rev]

JA I hadnt read all what either you or T had to say until later as it

seemed to go off topic

what i support is the ambiguity of pituri as a name and product

If the peopel from the area want to call theoir stuff 'pitjuranga pituri'

and make a reputation on it then thats fine but i object to the term

'pitjuri' being reserved at least until we know how to define it.

what i certainly dont support is teh use of racial sterotyping or making

light of aboriginal substance abuse which is a tragic and major problem in

their communities

and for those who are trying to regain some self determnation and have a

go being labelled or clumped with those with problems is demeaning,

counterproductive and untrue

we should allow people to define their own labels if they want them not

project our sense of who they are onto them. Do you like being labelled?

Racism is a mostly unconscious thing done for many reasons and in those

unconscious cases i dont think we should be so hard om n peple first up

cos weve all done it. But it needs to be confronnted head on with the

question -why do you think what you do?

i think u should stop and take a good look at your reasons and your logic

for feeling the need to make public negative generalisations about such a

diverse group of people

Im sure your comments arent going to cause grief or despair to an

aboriginal person as theyll be used to much worse and would have

established their own defiant rejection of such labels

however it still leaves the problem with you, and any one else whoe

engages in racial slander. Racism is bad for society and bad for the

victim but really its worse for the perpertrator because its poison for

your mind and soul. As i said the victim can be defiant and reflect it but

what will save the hater as they go on reinforcing their bitterness and

not ever seeing the ambiguity of reality

what damage are you doing to yourself with such thought patterns, to your

consciousnessand what social poison are you spreading. are you fully

aware of the possible consequences of such actions? do you fully realise

how far the fire can burn once ignited?

we must make a conscious effort everyday to put out the fires in ourselves

and in society, remove the fuel and convince people that their words and

actions take on a life of their own once released that poisons healthy

societies.

re darklights comments

i totally agree abou the sadness of losing languages and how every language offers a unique way of looking at the world and each other

the perspective i was taking however was on eof being part of that minority culture.

I know we take a distant view of the loss of traditional knowledge, or rainforest or language and we see the tragedy.

But on the ground with the people involved sentiment or this aesthetic sense of value pobably arent enough to keep it in their daily lives.

Kind of like Latin really. It became irrelevant to the common man and so died except for those who study it

Im in favour of reviving languages especially where it can serve as a means of increasing community cohesion and pride and this itself is one of those things that make it relevant but to do this the decision has to be made and implemented and to make sure the conditions are right that the language can live again in the cultural context. what i mean is its great to hav ethe elders and the children talking about animal and place names and telling stories in their native tongue especially if they are in the their ancestral lands. But teaching this to kids living in the suburbs living well outside a tribal community just seems like another language class like german or french etc... Interesting and occassionally useful but it doesnt bring a language back to life or into everyday usage

[edited at reville's request]

[ 09. January 2005, 22:00: Message edited by: Torsten ]

[gomaos]

wow, I thought this post was locked...

30 mins ago there were 2 posts... now Rev posted something... I'd like to stay out of the argument... all i wanted to say is, i got some material from JA and have been smoking it for the past few days (is that illegal?)...

yes it had a bit of mould I dried it, it's ok...

will not ever try chewing pituri again, since I mixed pituri and betelnut at eb4 and got VERY sick... so sick I couldn't eat the beautiful food anymore (i only get food like that once or twice a year)... but it smokes up very well, and also, even it definitely contains nicotine, and/or nor-nicotine. it's not addictive and makes me go back to normal cancer-causing tobacco...

great stuff, if I could buy it I would...

[Darklight]

gomaos:

wow, I thought this post was locked...

Yeah so did I... forum software is being weird. I'll re-lock now