What is it about germans?

[Torsten]

We haven't refused service for many customers, but there is the odd one that simply doesn't deserve our time. Why is it that 2 out of 5 (total refusals) were german?

I know from first hand experience that many germans think all australians are racists (hi mum), while in fact they are the ones who constantly discriminate. But what is funny is if a german customer thinks that I am an aussie and lumps me into the same category. I take that as a compliment , and over the years more and more so as I realise just how annoying these german traits can be.

We have a policy of never publicising any customer details, but I can safely state that this person will never be an SAB customer if I can help it

Other traders please feel free to contact me for this woman's details. Maybe I should just send her to MG

I know that my comments probably aren't standard business practice , but then neither is SAB a standard business. And I can honestly say that we've never had anything like these demands before, which is why I am posting them. They are quite entertaining.

Customer: How the Hell do I pay for this? And where is the Order number below? There is NO way I am signing up with Paypal or any other system which retains my Credit Card information in it's system FOREVER. What kind of a crappy business are you running anyway?

If you want payment for this, you will have to ring me on (00) 0000 0000 (T: number changed to protect the stupid) and I will give you my Credit Card number over the phone. Thank you.

Torsten: all payment information is provided on the final order page (and no, you don't have to use paypal). Generally our customers are smart enough to work it out.

I have deleted your order as I prefer not to do business with someone like you. Please don't contact us again.

Customer (in huge bold print): You don't want my business? Oh gee now you have really "hurt" my feelings you pathetic RETARDS! Do you think I am going to beg you to take my money?

If you really cared about your customers you would ~

* not send me such a RUDE email.

* have Direct Credit Card Debit facilities.

* it would NOT take you 3 weeks to post!

* charge $25 as the minimum purchase price.

Gee I've ordered stuff from QLD and it only took 3 days to reach me but you take 3 weeks? Get outa here! That tells me how much you really care about your customers.

You are the typical "Australian business" ~ RUDE, ABUSIVE, and don't give a damn about your customers. Why don't you go overseas and learn how REAL businesses treat their customers.

Oh and my final message to you ~ FUCK YOU.

[ 27. September 2004, 01:28: Message edited by: Torsten ]

[Torsten]

I should also point out that customer service in germany sucks. In australia there is a clear lack of competence in customer service, which is much better in germany, but in terms of friendliness and overall helpfulness australia is lightyears ahead of germany.

I'd rather have someone friendly who knows a fair bit than someone rude who knows everything

[Rev]

ROTFL

"abrupt" is the word that comes to my mind for german personalities ive met

As someone whos lived in both cultures you must have a better understanding of whatever fundamental social differences there seem to be sometimes

Most germans ive met from primary school (lived in adelaide w/ heaps of germans) are disproportionatly high achievers and think "bigger" than most. But with its theres that tendency to do that..abruptly...Germans are a little too well represented in accusing e-mails of mine

I wonder if its just a matter of second language = less handle on phrasing diplomacy

or are Germans as direct and full on in their own language?

It often seems to me that an email i find very accusing and offensive turns out to be thought of as no big deal or a part of normal conversational tone by the sender

Is that the style german society teaches and if someone does it back do they get offended or are Aussies just taught to be thin skinned and indirect by comparison?

And im not german bashing just curious

I think the same thoughts about Brits

Lots in common but still fundamentally different especially noticeable for me as one side of my family are poms

(P.S. Ill add that no comments on communications refer to any recent communications with anyone on these forums)

[ 27. September 2004, 04:33: Message edited by: reville ]

[Torsten]

The abruptness is often just a language thing, but this is really only an excuse for the first few years of living here. Some germans will the mellow and get into the flow of the aussie lifestyle and language, while others will pine for their homeland and 'how much better everythign is back home'. My argument to that is usually why they don't go back there then if they hate it here so much. And sad fact is many germans (especially the older ones) really do hate living in australia and regard migrating here and one of their worst mistakes. We used to have a german style cafe in melbourne, so we used to get all the germans who were longing for home.

Problem is that 'home' isn't really that great. Most germans who have been here a while forget all the bad things about germany and savour the good. Most don't go back for long enough to realise just how crap the place can be. I went over there for 6 months 10 years after my first arrival (my first trip back there) and while I had a lot of fun, I also really didn't like the place anymore - but that didn't kick in for 2 or 3 months.

So, with all these unhappy germans 'stuck' in australia, the only thing they can do is complain about how bad it is here, not realising they are making their lives even more miserable in the process.

Many germans alienate all their neighbours and non-german friends by *constantly* talking about how 'this could never happen in germany' and 'germany is just so much better at this'. This just makes their position worse. But it also instills an arrogance that is MUCH more pronounced than in germany itself. And that is the image germans have attained in australia over the years. It has little to do with your average germans in germany, but with unhappy, unrealistic and often very unbalanced people who are stuck where they don't want to be. I can tell you though that most of this subgroup of germans would not cope with the lifestyle in germany either, but there they have no justification to complain.

I thought I'd play this idiot for a bit and here is the result. I think the last line says it all.....

customer: "Listen you arrogant asshole, my great-grandfather was a very wealthy business man. He owned several businesses including a Restaurant, a Bowling Bowl complex, and a Cinema. He even had Jews working for him!

My grandfather fought in Stalingrad and so did my grandmother's brother, who lost his right arm there. My grandmother and mother were in Dresden when it was fire-bombed and she survived. My weathly great-grandfather LOST everything after the Russians came and took everything he owned. He died 3 days later and the rest of his family was left pennyless.

I am came to this country because my parents brought me here -- as a child -- AGAINST my will.

I cannot go back because my parents renounced my German Citizenship. So I am stuck here AGAINST MY WILL. I've been to America and do you know what they say? Thank you for allowing us to be of service to you, Maam. I've NEVER heard anyone say that in Australia, NEVER.

And NO, I'm NOT cheap. Why would I ask for fast service if I was cheap? I wanted those seeds because my mother asked for them -- and you know something -- you really can't refuse to serve me because I could SUE you for discrimination. But don't worry I won't because you are NOT worth the trouble.

Sieg Heil!

[gerbil]

hahahaha holy shit what a loony, you must have been falling off your chair reading those emails. She wasn't after Abrus precatorius seeds was she? yes... for her mother lol

'how much better everythign is back home'

We have germans married into my mothers family, and he is exactly like that. your description is spot on. One thing that he always talks about is the quality of products, 'oh that wouldn't happen in germany', like the whole aged pensioner 'they don't make things like when i was a young whipper snapper'. At first we all thought it was arrogance, and it probably still is to an extent, though we are used to it by now, and he can semi-see how he is and take the piss alot of the time.

Sieg Heil!

so i take it the jews were working for her g-g-father...slave wise hmmm.

[waterdragon]

Torsten:

 

Other traders please feel free to contact me for this woman's details. Maybe I should just send her to MG        

[/b]

ouch. bit of a low blow that.

[Torsten]

waterdragon - my comment re MG was actually only half in jest. What she is demanding is exactly what MG offers - theoretically at least - and what they charge for. Coming to SAB with those sort of expectations is like shopping at ALDI and asking for giftwrapping

(btw, we've got some major changes happening at the vitual and real SAB that will bring us up to speed. Imagine getting your SAB order within a week - who would have thought )

[Torsten]

Originally posted by gerbil:

One thing that he always talks about is the quality of products

That is probably one of the very few justified comments. 15 or 20 years ago there were no australian products in germany simply because none of them were good enough. Not just germany btw, but most of the advanced european countries. While on the other hand australia imports a shitload from europe - especially where quality matters. Just look at german cars and other engineering product.

But this has changed somewhat in the last decade - for two reasons. One is that australian products have become much better and can compete on the international market in *some* instances. The other is that german mentality about consumer good has changed. In the old days it was the rule that whatever you buy had to last you a long time - preferaly long enough to inherit it a generation or two. With the shrinking of the family unit and the more mobile lifestyle (less job security etc) it's become much more along the lines of Ikea, discount shopping and 'I need the latest gadget - today'. I presume this is a combination of american consumption pattern influence combined with cheap asian imports. Pretty much the same reasons as in Oz.

Australians have also very much changed in ther perception of themselves. When I first came to Oz I was astounded by newsreports of technological advances and inventions made by australians with the media praising them as "World First", even though I knew about them from europe from several years ago. Australians were deceiving themselves in an effort to instill pride in their achievements. After all, achievers weren't all that popular in Oz society The self-deception worked and under the last labour government australia became an educated and skilled country that had desirable products and people to export. Suddenly the self-deception was no longer needed and for those paying attention it was noticable how the media wasn't pushing the point anymore. Also, young people started to do a lot more overseas travel, gaining cultural experiences before entering the australian workforce. This changed much of the aussie perception of themselves. What worries me is that the media has started with the whole "world first" thing again, which means they are making up for the developing shortcomings by selfpraise.

The other thing where germany is clearly ahead is th education system. I transferred during year 10. In germany I was a mediocre student despite my best efforts (including flunking english!). But despite serious verbal language problems for the first few years, I became a straight A student as soon as I arrived. I was at the top of my class in all sciences and latin as well as in top 10 in all other classes except maths and PE I breezed through year 10 and 11, and spent all of 3 weeks studying for my HSC. By the end of my first year Uni we had barely caught up to the german year 10 level in chemistry and biology!

But all this advance comes at a cost. The future of a german child is pretty much determined as age 10 when they enter one of 3 schooling choices. If you don't make it into the top one then you will never be able to go to Uni. While I already knew what I wanted to be at age 10, I knew many of my friends had no idea and no ambition, even though they were smarter than me. Year 5 and 6 are the most stressful years in german schooling besides HSC and the suicide rate at that age is phenomenal. As i said, it can ruin your life.

In Oz on the other hand most kids are pretty relaxed about their future until about year 9 or 10. This is an age where you should have soem idea where your life is going and in any case there are plenty of avenues to fix things if you make the wrong choice. I think aussie kids are psychologically and socially better off. And to me, after havign experienced both I think it is much better to have happy, relaxed kids than to keep them on the brink of existence for much of what are already difficult years in their lives.

germans come to australia because they like the lifestyle, but they don't realise that the lifestyle comes at a cost. You can't be a german during the week and an aussie on the weekend - it just doesn't work. But you can pick the best of both cultural experiences and make the most of each.

[Rev]

My Mother and Grandparents are English and talking to them is like talking to aliens sometimes

Different ideas on National identity, work, politics, concepts of quality and the reasons for existing

They are pretty condescending to Australian culture overall - then again they did live through the worst of it! mid to late 20th century australia was a bit of a cultural backwater!

Their racist elements are quire pronounced towards the Irish who they assign as the cause to all negative or inferior social aspects of australian culture

Theyve been here since 1965 and only my uncle is naturalised, to go in the Army

They love to complain about Australian politics but they dont vote! Rather they bring up nostalgia about a Britain they left and have never been back to and that no longer exists. I dont talk to them much as we couldnt be more different

So it shows you dont have to be german to be 'german'

[ 28. September 2004, 00:38: Message edited by: reville ]

[Guest mandragora]

l

Edited April 17, 2007 by mandragora

[gerbil]

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Torsten:

 

[QB] That is probably one of the very few justified comments.

 

[QB]

---

I can see his point in some of it, though after a while it became more of a habit than anything else. Everything was pretty much grouped together and used to try and justify than germany is much better than australia in every way. Though it's still good to get the different persectives from different cultures no matter what the opinion, it's interesting to see the large differences and similarities within the human species, whether good or bad.

I had a bit of an idea about the school and how it could be in the later years from only talking to relatives/friends, but i didn't realise the yr 5-6 thing, wow that's pretty intense. thanks for explaining it.

[gomaos]

I know from first hand experience that many germans think all australians are racists (hi mum), while in fact they are the ones who constantly discriminate. But what is funny is if a german customer thinks that I am an aussie and lumps me into the same category. I take that as a compliment

Compliment? Hmmmm... I don't know...

to me there just as many racist aussies as there are germans... or french... or american...

Racism is deeply rooted in just about any culture...

it's some archetypal thing, from the time when whole tribes went to war against each other...

men, women and children... the latter ones going around with rocks when the battle is almost over, smashing the evil enemies skulls when they were only half dead.

Humanity should rise above it and leave it behind as something that had a use in the stone age.

I have encountered bad racism in Australia in working places in the 80s, when I first came to Australia.

it took me totally by surprise because i did not expect it at all...

all of a sudden I got treated like all these people from south europe who come to germany for work.

If I had no other alternative, I would have moved back to Europe straight away.

But I left that horrible factory and went looking for country Australia, which was the main reason I had come to Australia.

Not to be stuck in a depressing factory with 90% racist rednecks brainwashed by american media (what? he's a german? ENEMY!)

An "anti-essay" about this time of my life exist.

I have been working on it.

i may publish it sometime. it is very controversial.

And sad fact is many germans (especially the older ones) really do hate living in australia and regard migrating here and one of their worst mistakes.

I hope you don't count me into that category.

I'm not happy living in the city, because I feel i belong into the (australian) country, the bush really. I often whinge about being stuck in the city.

I actually think, even if I had a good oppurtunity to find a good job over there, I wouldn't wanna go back, because I can't get used to living indoors most the time of the year.

For me, the garden is more important than the house. If I'd have to live in a flat, like most ppl in germany, I would get very depressed over time.

On the other hand, I'm not defending those

real conservative Germans

like, regrettably, my only relatives here in Oz, like my sister, my brother, their spouses, and even my aunt and uncle here in Australia.

My sister and brother are sworn NAZIS and even celebrate Hitlers birthday.

After my mother died, I have broken off every contact to them.

Every time I met them, I had to listen to their ridicilous conservative views, like all these god-damn bludgers, hipppies, single parents on the dole who took their taxes. (Mind you, on the other hand these two are excellent tax cheats, so their taxes definitely don't pay for nothing)

Life was made to work, work, work, heap up a lot of money, buy a lot of houses, make money of them to buy more houses etc.

They fucken suck!

When I visited them I always had to pretend i was someone else, some slimy hippie-hating bastard just like they are.

Now I rather have nothing to do with them anymore.

At all!

[ 30. September 2004, 10:41: Message edited by: gomaos ]

[Torsten]

Originally posted by gomaos:

I hope you don't count me into that category.

You are so far from the stereotypical german migrant that virtually none of this applies to you.

I spent some time working in german ethnic clubs, in our own german food cafe, and with german kids at school, which was enough to give me an idea of what I don't want to be, why so many germans are so miserable, and most importantly why they have created this stereotype. I personally believe that this stereotype covers the vast majority of german migrants, although I could be wrong and was juste exposed to the noisy few. But this does not mean that many germans love it here regardless of how well they integrate. It seems the younger ones are a lot more likely to be happy about it.

From what you write, it seems to me that your unhappiness is due to circumstances that have nothing to do with being german and as such they may change (also regardless of your heritage). What I am trying to point out is the misery so many germans create for themselves and their surroundings on the basis of misconceptions, wishful thinking and sheer ignorance. This is best understood when examining other european migrants, who for the most part are simply grateful for being here and make the best of it without whinging even if australia isnt what they expected it to be. Sure, italians and greeks speak incessantly with great affection of their countries, but it is much rarer to hear them complain about australia or for them to wish they were back home.

You are right about german relatives (in germany). Most of mine are ultra conservative drones (including one drug agent) and we simple have nothing in common. I do have a few young german friends, but they are so funky that they'd not fit in in any country

[Rev]

Racism may have old roots but it neednt surface, like cannibalism, thats old too but not nearly as popular... though there was this doco about some germans the other day

Racism is a political ploy by politicians and people wanting authority to patronise people and tell them how much better they are than anyone else in so many ways

Of course people believe it and like hearing i because every one wants flattery and to feel special. Noone wants to hear that the migrants are doing better cos they will work harder and go without - basically Aussie have had it too good so we are a bit idle (not al a bad thing though but its still our choice) - you dont get votes that way!

At the low grade we call it nationalism and promote it

Even in this form it isolates many minorities.

There can be the massing asian threat of invasion from the north yet Benny hong who runs the local newsagent hes Ok cos hes naturalised and good little ozzie. You dont have to be migrant either - could be aboriginal and the same contradiction applies

"assimilation" is the catch cry and we did it for decades as it replaced the white australia policy.

You can be an aussie with dark skin if you give up your entire identity and become a model one of us - buy you still cant marry my daughter or son.

Its what the french are doing to muslim women in the guise of natioanal unity

This is such a white australia hangover too just scratch below the surface and few older aussies have changed their minds, they just dont talk about it except to one another as its a taboo. You saw them come out of the woodwork with one nation and again when johnny stole the thunder - johnny is a blatantly obvious closet racist (and homophobe - whats the difference same principle)

Younger aussies i have more hope for but it needs work - we need multiculturalism back as official govt policy - to keep the pot stirring, not saying we all have to totally blend but we should be on good enough terms to have a meal together.

I think assimilation is the key too but not the same way, synthesis is better term. everybody has to change a little and keep on reinventing themselves to suit society better and get more from life

[ 01. October 2004, 02:03: Message edited by: reville ]

[Talby]

In America we have this myth of the classless society in which anyone can make it. It's a big deal for corporate advertising to include a black child or asian, in order to make everyone subconciously feel like everything's all right on the race issue. But I can assure you, the drummer to my band, who is African-American, gets stopped by the police ten times more than I ever do. We're deeply racist, too, but we don't admit it and pretend it isn't happening.

While discussing the Germans, let's not forget those lefty anarchist types (ever been to Tachles?) that I met so many of in Berlin in the 90's...shout outs to the Ossie artists in Friedrichshagen, that is if Friedrichshagen still exists as I remember it. That little town was so communist that Hitler had to kill rather than conquer them. I suppose Berlin is, or was, an exception anyway. But free-thinking, hospitible, hard-partying left wing Germans do exist.

[Rev]

Talby:

In America we have this myth of the classless society in which  anyone can make it.

We have that here too - and a big deal is made of it

Its definitely possible to still come from any family in Australia and still make it to a comfortable life. Much more so than many many other places - including it seems many places in the USA where it seems there is poverty far beyond what ive seen here and without chance for escape.

We dont have a classless society but we still have the skeleton of a society that used to at least belive that it wasnt and didnt want to be - the "Fair go" motto . At least thats better than a society that accepts and condones it

Were losing ground every year but i think if we support free and accessible public education more we can destratify before i gets out of hand

[ 01. October 2004, 18:01: Message edited by: reville ]

[nabraxas]

So at least all germans are coming together now.

but for how much longer?--a recent poll came back w/over 70% ov all germans wanting the berlin wall back up.

the neo-nazi movement is growing frighteningly strong, contesting seats in the local & european parliaments & gaining in popularity.

[Guest mandragora]

l

Edited April 17, 2007 by mandragora

[gomaos]

What does it take "to jump over a border"

(I assume you mean the border between East and west germany before it came down)

I would say Oppression, Depression, being unable to be oneself in the country you are fleeing.

All those nazis and "spiessers" were one of the main reasons for me to leave germany.

Plus the ever growing thread of nuclear war which burst like a soap bubble when the Soviet Union and Easter Block collapsed.

If it would have happened 10 years earlier, i may have never migrated to Australia...

But I don't regret it... I most likely would not be any happier over there than I am here now, am probably happier over here, who knows?

About nazis: They suck!

As i mentioned before, my sister married a straight up nazi (with hitler picture and flag hidden in a roon in his house)and he sucked.

She became like him (or always has been that way)and she sucks too.

But Nazis are everywhere.

My brother married a super-conservative North Queensland woman and there's just no difference between a german nazi and an australian one.

Both are vicious monsters really, not someone you can be firends with.

The whole concept of Nazism (?)stinks.

because everything is based on racism and similar.

racism=sexism=class-thinking=conservatives...

all of that stinks, including most religions,

because all of them want to make us believe that there are groups, races, genders of people who are better than other ones.

Why? Because it is their god-given right...

well yeah what I was trying to say, there's nazis over there and there's nazis over here, and there's skinheads in England, and Osama Bin Liner in Arabia and who cares.

They all suck. To hell with them.

What is the way?

Peace and love, brothers and sisters.

Live and let live, not domination.

And it doesn't matter if someone's been living here all their life, or if they just stepped of a boat yesterday.

All the same people.

[2b]

"Don't mention the war !!!"

-Basil Faulty :mad:

[Torsten]

I had family in the east and west and both were happier apart then together. The west think they broght freedom to the east, but what is freedom if you don't have a place to live, no job, no food and get arrested for smoking pot. None of those things happened in the east. So for those who are disenfranchised, the end of the wall was the end of their security. We value our consumer goods very highly - but they didn't. We THINK we have free speech and value it highly....they probably got away with more than we did as long as it wasn't party political.

Sure, if what we call democracy was the real thing rather than the 'money rules' society we really have, then there would be no question that communism (as it manifested out of russia) is a bad thing. But fact is that we neither have a real democracy nor did russia have real communism, so you have to compare the systems for what they really were and not for what we pretend them to be. I think the best proof of this is that most east germans do not think that they have more freedom since the reunification. Freedom is composed of many aspects, including freedom from hunger, freedom from stress, freedom from industrial slavery and yes, freedom from persecution. But the east germsn just swapped one persecution for several others.

[Rev]

Sounds like something that will be said in 10 years as we look back at the new and "free" iraq

[Torsten]

actually, I noticed the parallels when I was writing it. The 'freedom' we imposed on the east germans was neither appreciated by the majority of them nor by the majority of west germans - once the euphoria died down and reality set in.

I lived in germany for a few months 3 years after the wall came down and in berlin the most popular t-shirt was "I want my wall back" - both in the east and the west.

[Stonehenge]

I've noticed the germans in usa tend to be kind of bossy. A german professor of biology I got to know who was friends with my mother told me once that every german thinks first of all that he is the best, secondly, his block is better than the other blocks, his team is better, city, province and so on. Finally, he thinks all germans are better than other nationals. I've found that to be true on the most part but not always. My german teacher I had was very bossy, kind of a lucy brown from the comic strip peanuts, if you know what I mean. She was a tough old bird who brooked no nonsense at all.

Stoney

[gomaos]

every german thinks first of all that he is the best, secondly, his block is better than the other blocks, his team is better, city, province and so on.

that's exactly the attitude I was confronted with by my australian co-workers in my first real job in Australia (melbourne, 1982-84)).

I found that attitude apalling and told them.

They made me suffer for it ever after.

[ 05. October 2004, 09:43: Message edited by: gomaos ]