riddle me terror

[jalien]

riddle me this

how many western

but non

israel/palestine

russia/chechnya

peeps have been

killed by terrorist acts

in the last decade?

6000? or

one in a million

about that i'd say

if you were worried about terrorism

based on previous levels of activity

youd be plain crazy to give it more

than a moment

the real worry is a dirty bomb or some

other techy thing

and if a crazed ex priest can catch marathon man

just how easy is security to sneek through?

the media feeds us a diet of fear

terrorism is the most distilled form of this

because what can you do about it?

i for one would give palestine and chechnya back

i mean if someone wants something so much you

should probably just give it to them, no?

not likely!

cthulhu for president

[Torsten]

a few years ago most terrorist were called freedom fighters....

It would be wise to make a distinction between terrorists who terrorise the people who elect the system that terrorises them, and the terrorists who terrorise people because they are fanatics. Sadly, the line is often blurred, but this should not leave us believing that there is no line.

[ 02. September 2004, 20:49: Message edited by: Torsten ]

[nabraxas]

speaking as someone who grew up watching news stories ov endless "tit for tat" killings, followed by a concerted bomb attack on London--which shook the windows & doors ov our house twice in as many years, i'd have to agree w/you jalien.

it seems that often, even when the whole will ov the nation is for peace, that unless the men in power--terrorists & politicians--are willing to compromise--the killings continue.

the chechens certainly couldn't have picked a more emotive target, let's see how far emotions can carry dialogue...

[Torsten]

I too grew up with terrorism nearby. Besides the visible damage of attacks in the city and the news of attacks in other places, much of terrorisms side-effects are the traumatic scenarios caused by the terrorist hunt.

My very middle class parent's house once got raided by elite troops because their car rego sticker was from the same state as a terrorist car seen nearby the day before. Having your house raided and machine guns pointed at you at age 7 is not a normal growing up experience even in germany, but it is a world removed from what you expect in australia in regards to terrorism -at least until a few years ago.

Let's remember though, that terrorism hasn't really increased all that much in the last few years (yes, it had a lull in the 90's). It's just that now the phrase is used a lot more and the media beats it up as much as possible. It has however come to australia and we should always remember why it did that (but we won't).

Given the current chechen drama I would like to qualify my previous comment a little further. In most cases terrorists do not target entirely innocent people. A population who votes for an evil president/PM and allows it's troops to commit murder and torture is not innocent no matter how much people like to hide behind the 'chain of command' - that's the cold hard fact of the democratic system. And before anyone criticises that notion, just think about how many germans (of the 1930's) you yourself regard as innocent of the holocaust....

However, there is one section of the community that is virtually always innocent and these are the children. There is just no excuse for what the chechen rebels are doing at the moment. I really hope the russians don't bungle this one like they did the Moscow theatre siege.

[Seeker]

Ah T, who then are the innocents?? Define them if you can.

Seeker

[Northern Gnome]

Many acts of terrorism occur because governments can no longer afford to go to war with governments, we are far too efficient for that kind of thing today, the weaker one looses. Terrorism is the only effective tool to battle large governments who would have the power to squash a legitimate war effort against them.

The major problem and reason terrorism is worse than big government doing the same thing is that terrorist appear to more readily kill anyone who happens to be present without regard to who they are or what country they are from. Many good people from all over the world died in the 9-11 attack upon the world trade center.

I know, this can be picked apart... Many governments can be just as bad as the terrorists, and often are worse, just because they can get away with it.

[Torsten]

seeker - First and foremost I believe children are innocent. I also believe those who did their best to stop the initial brutality or the system that created the unfairness are innocent. From here on the lines are not so clear anymore. I personally feel (and I think many would disagree) that sitting idly by is not innocence. However, what is idle? And for that matter what is "doing your best"? For some this might simply be voting at the election every 3 or 4 years. For others it means weekly protests. Or it might even mean armed conflict (such as a rebellion).

Certainly, voting for a leader who promises to continue the oppression and suffering in other countries is definitely not innocence.

A common argument against terrorism is that the victims are civilians. Well, in most wars in the last 100 years civilians made up more than 90% of the victims. Given the ingrained military culture of the US, I wouldn't be surprised if the 9/11 figures are not much different.

So that there is no misunderstanding: I do not like what al quaeda stands for. I do not approve of 9/11. I am glad saddam is gone. However, I also do nto approve of US foreign policy, do not approve of their version of globalisation, and I do understand the plight of many oppressed peoples.

Letting the US commit these crimes all around the world while sitting idle is not enough and is not innocent.

[jalien]

terrorism is evil

if anything is

a counterbalance

to the evil of the

powermoungers

using children sickens me

mike moore proposed in

stupid white men that

non-violent non-cooperation

is THE effective mechanism of protest

could work in chechnya

but i doubt israel

since israel seems to me

like one big military base

ever get the feeling that things are getting

much better and much worse at the same time?

freetopia

[ramon]

What I find suprising and significant.

The fact that the terrorism that was experienced by Russia was talked about in relation to its most probable cause ie. the war in Chechnya.

Whereas there has been so such analysis about the causes of the terrorism which effects the west.

When terrorist attack Western Targets it is because they are evil or hate our freedoms.

[Torsten]

well I guess we'll get plenty more of this garbage over the next few weeks thanks to the very well timed embassy bombing in jakarta - well timed for the australian election I mean.

[bijanto]

My deep condolescence and symphaty to all who suffered from the recent blast in Jakarta, including fellows in the Australian Embassy and their family.

[Torsten]

I think the condolences should come from australia as it appears all (or at least most) victims were Indonesian.

This insanity has to be stopped, but the way we are going about it just makes it worse.

[minotaur]

Sadly most of the victims of the latest bombing in Jakarta were innocent bystanders and people who were just doing their job.

In the Beslan seige and the latest Jakarta bombing the people responsible have not advanced their cause - their actions only alienate most normal people.

In the case of Beslan, all past problems suffered by the Chechens will be quickly forgotten, and the Russian military will now be able to act without any fear of criticism.

The kidnappers were obviously connected with the Chechen separatist movement because one of their demands was the release of nominated Chechen fighers - their motivation was obvious. The video tape on the news tonight showed the kidnappers talking on mobile phones during the seige - which lends weight to the theory they were not acting in isolation.

I don't think the Jakarta bombing will have a big impact on the Australian election. The leaders of both parties have condemned the bombing, as expected. It would be a huge political risk to use a tragic event where innocent people died as part of an election campaign.

I feel sorry for the innocent people who were killed and injured - they did nothing to deserve it.

[ramon]

In the Beslan seige and the latest Jakarta bombing the people responsible have not advanced their cause - their actions only alienate most normal people.

 

If their cause is to create a great conflict between muslims and non muslims then they are well on their way.

The actions of America since 9-11 have played straight into these plans.

Seems like the Russians are going to react the same way

[Darklight]

Ramon:

What I find suprising and significant.

That's the best analysis of the situation I've heard !

[nabraxas]

Ramon--& yeah what better targets for both countries.

America reacts to an attack on its tall buildings 'cus it stings their pride---their own kids are busy blowing up the schools.

Russians would probably celebrate a bombing ov the kremlin, & the deaths ov citizens in a moscow theatre didn't seem to cause much fuss---but seize a school full ov kids in rural russia.....

 

quote:

---

In the Beslan seige and the latest Jakarta bombing the people responsible have not advanced their cause - their actions only alienate most normal people.

---

---& yet it seems a great amount ov thought, preparation & planning went into the seige....

[Torsten]

I am not a conspiracy theorist, but history tells us we probably should all be a lot more suspicious. I just find the timings of many of these events too coincidental or at least convenient. Please do not think that I believe the statements below. They are merely possibilities that one should keep in mind when thinking about the overall picture. It is always important to look at why something happened, what effect it has and who really was behind it.

9/11 - The US needed a good reason to start invading countries in the middle east and to boost its defense in an aim to return to the Reagan era. It galvanised the population to support an incompetent but patriotic leader.

Beslan - The russian government needed to get the population behind its anti-chechen independence position, as well as boosting their military even though they can't afford it. Putin is ex-KGB, so an erosion of civil liberties equivalent to the current US erosion of the same would only be advantageous for him.

Bali - Australian govvy was struggling to garner support for the american anti-terror campaign and the subsequent invasions. Bali galvanised the country behind Howards pro-US position. A bunch of nitwits with tenuous links to JI are unsuccessfully prosecuted.

Jakarta - Same as Bali, but much more important as an election is looming. Note that no aussies were hurt.

Madrid bombing - very successful election stunt.

[jalien]

i know what you mean torsten

im not too into believing conspiracies

but these terrorist acts are so convienient

for keeping populations in fear -> governments in

everyone i speak to these days thinks Bush will get back in

hardly a likely event if it weren't for terrorism

one thing though if governments were competent enough to cover these things up you would at least expect some well planted WMDs in Iraq and for them to find Osama (or is it better for him to be at large as the Evil One out there?)

nanokiwi.com

[ramon]

I just find the timings of many of these events too coincidental or at least convenient.

There is no coincidence involved.

They were all highly planned. Al-Qaida have discussed on internet forums, the influencing of voting patterns amongst members of the coallition of the willing. Especially those countries where the leaders took the country to war against the wishes of the people.

I think that the governments involved spin the events in whatever way suits their purpose.

America could have invaded Iraq without 9-11. All the whitehouse had to do was send fighter jets beyond the no fly zones and let a couple get shot down. Throw in the scare of WMD and this is a much stronger argument for invading Iraq then trying to link Iraq to terrorists

[Rev]

The US does have a history of staging events, so do ther countries.

Im prone to believe it was planned in some cases

I think likely the big ones like 9/11 and madrid look very very suss

but the small ones i think are just siezed upon by govts looking for an excuse

or else they are not orchestrated as much as allowed to occur maybe even supported indirectly

That said the Australian government is a bastard of a govt to its neighbours, and we have a history of dirty tricks, dishonesty, Thuggery, blackmail and inhumanity. Dont be suprised by why our Asian neighbours dont trust us

whether it be the recent Iraq lies, the children overboard lies, likely Spying in Vanuatu, Injustice to poor Roti island fishermen denied access to traditional fishing grounds with cruel and unecessary imprisonment,Leaving E Timor to the wolves for 24 years then 'rescueing' only to steal its Oil rights, conspiracy to deny West papua their referndum on independance, even claims Aust agents deliberatley scuttled refugee boats. Giving Aid to corrupt govts then linking it to demands in a typical 'offer you can't (afford to) refuse' eg Pacific solution

theres even discussion that indonesias current civil govt not being in aust best interest - better they think to have the corrupt military regime that will just 'deal' with these suspected terrorist and avoid all the mess of real trials with possibility of acquittal and be easier to make deals with on trade and exploitation

on and on and on...

We are The US and brit's eager apprentice when it comes to dirty tricks

What our govt does is no diff to what other expansive aggressive govts do - and we call them rogue states and a menace.

Yet our axis of deceit seems to be stretching out that last bit further the duality where the govt does the most underhanded things but convinces us its doing it for a moral cause, a crusade angainst tyranny and injustice.

We are good people and good people get conned like that. We still think we are the good guys and we are we're the ones in danger of being overrun - even when weve got the most advanced and aggressive military in the region

whatever it is its all the same a planet of poor moderates is being held to ransom by a small band of rich fanatics who rather than being from far removed worlds coming to clash are indeed from competing dynasties of same dirty world of Oil, arms and global finance.

A Vote for Howard/Bush is a vote for Fear

[ 13. September 2004, 17:37: Message edited by: reville ]