mysubtleascention Posted January 7, 2016 (edited) Sometimes only one flower is available on a trichocereus plant for hand-pollination and we have multiple pollens we'd like to apply.. Is it possible to create a single fruit filled with various crosses by mixing pollens ? Is there only one egg cell /ovule/ to be fertilized by the sperm in the trichocereus flower ovary ? Edited January 7, 2016 by mysubtleascention 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Señor Corrochio Posted January 7, 2016 (edited) Sometimes only one flower is available on a trichocereus plant for hand pollination and we have multiple pollens we'd like to apply.. Is it possible to create a single fruit filled with various crosses by mixing pollens ? Is there only one egg cell /ovule/ to be pollinated in the trichocereus flower ovary ? Multiple ovules, one pollen My bad, it's multiple pollens With multi-seeded fruits, multiple grains of pollen are necessary for syngamy with each ovule. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fertilisation Edited January 7, 2016 by Señor Corrochio Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mysubtleascention Posted January 7, 2016 The way to go seems to be pre-mixing tiny amounts of each constituent to obtain the final mix of pollens, intended for application.. Not easy to differentiate which is which in the progeny,when mixing pollens, but the utilisation of a single flower in such a manner might interest some pollinators, nevertheless.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Señor Corrochio Posted January 7, 2016 I don't really know but this still doesn't sound right to me, at least I don't think this would work on a general basis. If one type of pollen has a better chance of getting to the ovules than another then almost all ovules will be fertilised by that type. Say it might turn out spach pollen germinates/grows twice as fast as pach's... Also you can't rule out there being a mechanism where the receiver would show preference towards one pollen over another or any other direct/indirect interaction between different pollen. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mysubtleascention Posted January 7, 2016 (edited) Some pollen mixes might have easily distinguishable progeny though.. bridgesii x bridgesii + scopulicola progeny should have 2 general types - long spined type /bridge x bidge/ and shorter spined type/bridge x scop/ bridgesii x bridgesii + pachanoi/short spined/ progeny should have 2 types : - short spined bridgesii x pachanoi - longer spined bridge x bridge plus half of the bridge x pach scopulicola x scopulicola + peruvianus /or cuzcoensis,macrogonus,other long spined varieties/ progeny should have 2 types: - spineless type scop x scop`/perhaps some spineless scop x peru seedlings too/ - short spined type scop x peruvianus /or cuzcoensis,macrogonus,other long spined varieties/ peruvianus x peruvianus + scopulicola progeny should have 2 types: - longer spined peru x peru - shorter spined peru x scop pollen from variegated plants mixed with pollen from non-variegated plants will give easily distinguishable progeny / same with pollen from mutants/ Edited January 8, 2016 by mysubtleascention Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Evil Genius Posted January 7, 2016 Pollen mixes are used in case of difficult crosses, such as intergeneric hybrids or self-sterile plants. By using a mix, you can increase the chance that at least one of them can pollinate the flower. That said, I dont think you can get offspring of more than one pollinator in just one seed pod. But if you have enough space, just apply a pollen mix and raise every single seedling from that fruit. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Señor Corrochio Posted January 7, 2016 Some pollen mixes might have easily distinguishable progeny though.. My point was that even if we assumed this worked on a general basis then there are also plenty of reasons to suggest that in general the number of fertilisations will be far from even between the pollen types, still only one pollen type doing the majority of the fertilisation. Also I wouldn't be so sure about telling the seedlings apart. there will/can be plenty of non-variegated/crested plants coming from variegated/crested parents vice versa. Or check out these pc x psycho0 crosses, you really could end up with the same look from a big range of fathers/mothers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mysubtleascention Posted January 7, 2016 (edited) there are also plenty of reasons to suggest that in general the number of fertilisations will be far from even between the pollen types In some cases with 2 types of progeny.. no matter what's the ratio, you can tell what's what ; And if you grow all the seeds from one such fruit and compare the number of seedlings from each type ,the ratio of pollen success will show.. If you mix variegated pollen, only certain amount of the seedlings will be variegated,but you can be sure who's their daddy /same for mutatants/, the rest of course is uncertain .. scop x peru + scop variegated progeny will have 3 types: - spineless scop x scop /perhaps some spineless scop x peru/ - spineless scop x scop variegated - short spined scop x peru Mixing 3 types might work as well scopulicola x bridgesii + scopulicola variegated + scopulicola mutated Four types of progeny: -1- spineless scop x scop variegared /daddy variegated scop/ -2- spineless scop x scop mutated /daddy mutated scop/ -3- spineless scop x scop with normal growth / daddy scop mutaded or scop variegated;maybe bridgesii father will give some spineless seedlings as well/ -4- short spined scop x bridge Though not certain for all of the seedlings one can pick with certainty three types of parentage-1,2,4 from the above mix.. Edited January 9, 2016 by mysubtleascention Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zelly Posted January 7, 2016 Is it possible to create a single fruit filled with various crosses by mixing pollens ? I aint saying which, but if you grow out (z-y) of my hybrids you'll have the answers you seek. 1 pollen grain + 1 ovum = 1 seed 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Change Posted January 8, 2016 Does open pollinated or multi father pollination making bigger fruit with more seeds then a regular 2 way cross? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zelly Posted January 8, 2016 Does open pollinated or multi father pollination making bigger fruit with more seeds then a regular 2 way cross? 1) fruit size for open pollination generally requires bees to do the heavy lifting so those fruits tend to be smaller 2) fruit size for hand pollination, multi father or not, depends on how much available pollen is available to the pistil AND how many available mature ova there are. Some trichs as a rule always have huge roundish fruits, some have very small roundish fruits, some have oblong cylindrical shaped fruits 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Señor Corrochio Posted January 8, 2016 With self-fertile plants you'd often get more seeds using foreign pollen. Now in general, say if in one group you pollinate flowers of plant A with fixed large amount of pollen from its sibling plant B and in another group you pollinate flowers of plant A with a 50/50 mix of pollen from plant B and plant C, keeping number of pollen grains same as before and plant C being a random compatible plant, it would be an interesting question to ask if/how the number of seeds would differ between the two groups. Especially if you keep changing plant C. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zelly Posted January 8, 2016 keeping number of pollen grains same as before imho that would be a feat of magic of epic proportions 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Señor Corrochio Posted January 8, 2016 Some of the papers I looked at seemed to have a decent margin of error on pollen counts/estimates. (http://www.amjbot.org/content/87/4/527.full). Really though, just thinking about it now, there isn't even any need to keep the numbers the same. As long as we make sure it's "more than enough" I guess should be ok. The main thing would be to get the 50/50 ratio which shouldn't be as big an issue. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mysubtleascention Posted January 8, 2016 (edited) Now in general, say if in one group you pollinate flowers of plant A with fixed large amount of pollen from its sibling plant B and in another group you pollinate flowers of plant A with a 50/50 mix of pollen from plant B and plant C, keeping number of pollen grains same as before and plant C being a random compatible plant, it would be an interesting question to ask if/how the number of seeds would differ between the two groups. Especially if you keep changing plant C. Indeed there's a good idea here.. Pollinating 7 flowers on bridgesii1 as follows flowerA - bridgesii1 x scopulicola flowerB - bridgessii1 x scop + bridgesii2 flowerC - bridgesii1 x scop + peruvianus flowerD - bridgesii1 x scop + validus flowerE - bridgesii1 x scop + cuzcoensis flowerF - bridgesii1 x scop + macrogonus /long spines/ flowerG - bridgesii1 x scop + pachanoi /short spines/ progeny from flowerA has one phenotype: - short spined bridge1 x scop progeny from flowerB has 2 phenotypes: - short spined bridge1 x scop - long spined bridge1 x bridge2 progeny from flowerD has 2 phenotypes: - short spined bridge1 x scop - long spined bridge1 x peru progeny from flowerD has 2 phenotypes: - short spined bridge1 x scop - long spined bridge1 x validus progeny from flowerE has 2 phenotypes: - short spined bridge1 x scop - long spined bridge1 x cuzcoensis progeny from flowerF has 2 phenotypes: - short spined bridge1 x scop - long spined bridge1 x macrogonus progeny from flowerG has 3 phenotypes: - short spined bridge1 x scop /about 50% of the seedlings/ - long spined bridge1 x pachanoi /about 25% of the seedlings/ - short spined bridge1 x pachanoi /about 25% of the seedlings/ Comparing the progeny phenotypes from all 7 flowers might give a good image of traits evolution, after hybridisation.. If spineless seedlings occur in the above crosses they're definely bridgesii1 x scop FlowerA will give progeny of one and the same phenotype which can easily be compared to the progeny derived from flowers B,C,D,E,F,G , where the same phenotype will also be present.. and the comparison of percentages of each phenotype may be calculated.. Edited January 9, 2016 by mysubtleascention 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zed240 Posted January 8, 2016 Funny you've posted this as I've just done something similar. Due to 6 scop flowers failing to accept pollen due to opening during a 40 degree heatwave and being cooked, I did a double pollination attempt with 2 kinds of pollen for this scop flower. Should be pretty easy to tell the parents of the progeny apart if this fruit does take. It's only been 5 days so far....... Fields Shed Validus and Bird's Bondi Scop. 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mysubtleascention Posted January 8, 2016 The main thing would be to get the 50/50 ratio which shouldn't be as big an issue. maybe measuring equal amounts on a mg scale.. and shaking them together in a zip lock bag.. I've just done something similar. what technique did you use mixing those pollens, zed? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Señor Corrochio Posted January 9, 2016 maybe measuring equal amounts on a mg scale.. and shaking them together in a zip lock bag.. I guess it should be fine, and desiccate them first so they have the same water content. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zed240 Posted January 9, 2016 what technique did you use mixing those pollens, zed? It wasn't particularly scientific. I used a clean, soft artists brush for each kind of donated pollen and placed as much pollen as possible on half of the stigma each, one side per type of pollen, all surface area of the stigma was attempted to be covered by one or other type of pollen. I could see pollen on the brush that was being transfered to the stigma even though I had only small amounts of each to work with. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mysubtleascention Posted January 9, 2016 (edited) I used a clean, soft artists brush for each kind of donated pollen Did you clean the tip of the brush between pollens / separate utensils ? Edited January 9, 2016 by mysubtleascention Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zed240 Posted January 9, 2016 Did you clean the tip of the brush between pollens ? A different, clean brush was used per pollen. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mysubtleascention Posted January 9, 2016 Another question that comes to mind /thinking of human identical twins,developed from just one zygote that will then split and form two embryos/ is the ratio between the number of ovules present in the trichocereus flower ovary and the number of seeds in the fruit, derived from the same flower.. ovules : seeds per flower 1:1 or near that , means no trichocereus twins 1:2 means one ovule produces 2 identical seeds 1:3 means one ovule produces 3 identical twins and so on If the ratio is bigger than1, that means some ovules died off 2:1 ratio means half of the ovules died / remained unfertilized by pollen grains/ 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zelly Posted January 9, 2016 hopefully somebody more illuminated than i will explain the process of counting ovules in trich flowers? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mysubtleascention Posted January 9, 2016 (edited) Perhaps some plants as a norm use this process of producing twins, like easy way to multiply their progeny /if pollen grains are sparse for example/.. I wonder if that's the case with trichocereus Maybe someone explored closely this process of reproduction with trichocereus.. or will be in the future Edited January 9, 2016 by mysubtleascention Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mysubtleascention Posted January 9, 2016 (edited) hopefully somebody more illuminated than i will explain the process of counting ovules in trich flowers? Ovule number per flower in a world of unpredictable pollination1 On the Relationship between the Number of Ovules Formed and the Capacity of the Ovary for Maturing Its Ovules into Seeds ovule numbers.pdf ovule numbers.pdf ovule numbers.pdf Edited January 9, 2016 by mysubtleascention 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
