Aztekium

[mutant]

congrats you're the dude!

[Psyentist]

So, my very first aztekium arrived today.

Beyond stoked, such an epic looking little plant!

[Philocacti]

That's a beautiful specimen

[nut]

That looks awesome. You are clearly not on Aus!

[Psyentist]

Thanks guys!

I'm so happy with the little fella.

And oh, but I am in Aus.

'Twas quite hard to find.

[nut]

Nice find, I have a couple as well but they look very different to yours. Yours are very tidy and not pupping like crazy at least so far.

[Psyentist]

Yeah, so far so good!

He's only tiny though so who knows what will happen.

I'd love to degraft him to grow on his own roots but I've heard it's next to impossible so I shall just leave him be. I would never forgive myself if I killed him.

[Spanishfly]

Psyentist - you have acquired a A. valdezii.

You should be aware that virtually ALL of these being sold have been obtained by ILLEGAL means - often by East European gangs who have ravaged the habitats and smuggled plants and seeds out of Mexico. Like ivory poachers, making a quick buck is more important than conservation of a species in habitat. As responsible growers, we should ask ourselves whether we should support what are basically criminals.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Spanishfly

[modern.shaman]

Most plants in cultivation have been obtained illegally at first. Most if not ALL plants native to Mexico is illegal as the Mexican government doesn't tend to authorize exporting native plants/seeds even for cultivation in Mexico. A. hintonii, Geohintonia Mexicana, Some Astrophytum and lopho localities are all obtained improperly and the only way to reduce this is by mass propagating from seed and spreading the seeds later. Essentially all CITES plants from Mexico is illegal.

Now should you buy wild harvested plants... no and wild harvested seeds do harm the population but to a lesser extant than removing seed providers.

[spooge]

Beutifull plant man, well done for getting her.

now you can flower her and spread the seeds around to compensate for the loss her from the environment.

nothing will stop the poaching of plants, people will always buy then, the idea now is tryn help the species by flowering them, getting seeds, growing the plants and then repopulating their natural habitat hopefully in 50 yrs when the mex gov gives a fuck.

[Spanishfly]

You will of course need two plants to obtain seeds - Aztekium is not self fertile.

[Psyentist]

Thanks Olive!

To be honest when I first got it, I was unaware of the recentness of this species of aztekium.

I just thought it was a stunning looking plant.

But now after doing some research I realise what I've done.

I strongly object to the poaching of wild plants although I do agree though with what is said above, about not being able to stop poachers. I think the best way to combat them is for people who actually care about the plants to propergate them as much as possible and drive the value down.

Well, that's how I justify it to myself anyway.

But looking at my plant it is extremely possible that it was grafted as a seedling, albeit likely poached seeds, not an actual poached plant.

With the other plants mentioned above, after how many years did it become acceptable to assume your plant isn't the result of poaching?

And I do know a dude with another, whether or not they're the same clone is yet to be seen. I'll try to find out.

[Berengar]

Psyentist, I think it's safe to say yours is a 2nd generation plant, grown from seed that was bred in captivity either from a plant grown from habitat seed or from a habitat collected plant.

Everyone always gets their panties in a bunch when it comes to poaching a couple hundred plants, but no one spares a thought for all the thousands upon thousands that were and are being destroyed every day by urbanization, road building, pollution and every other kind of habitat destruction. Probably hundreds of species have been destroyed before ever being discovered by science. I'm not saying poaching is OK, far from it, but you need to put it into perspective.

And as was said, without poaching, we wouldn't have 10% of cacti and succulents we have today. In many countries, any kind of collecting seeds and plants from habitat is illegal. That is especially true for Mexican cacti and African stapeliads. If the plants are bred and propagated quickly enough and in large quantities, then soon the need for poaching that particular species subsides almost entirely.

Don't feel bad about your plant, it is extremely beautiful, but do if you can try to reproduce it, either by crossing or with cement dust at first.

[nut]

That does my head in, I looked at a bunch of photos of valdezii thinking I had misidentified that plant and I had. I've grafted ritterii. I have mostly seen photos of what must have been wild plants. That thing is so green and the ribs are so pronounced, looks so perfect. Just not used to seeing them in cultivation and you can prob place more blame on some eastern euro smuggler than yourself mate. First time I saw a wild plant for sale was from the Czech Republic from memory. I even started a thread here about our responsibilities with regards. I didn't explain my point very well. It's a sad difficult issue the loss of plants like the originals from the wild. I thought I had heard of a program to spread seed from that new Mammillaria Bertholdii and A. valdezii. In fact I still have not seen that new Mammillaria Bertholdii for sale. I was told the botanist who discovered it was keeping the location secret and an immediate propagation program be started to try and prevent the extinction of those in the wild thanks to collectors. A particularly well know grower here was offered to take part in the program but the import of the seeds at the time was and still is illegal I guess.The problem was the import into Aus of the seed to take part in the program not the export of the seed from Mexico ( from what I understood it was all good legalities wise on the Mexican side but Aus aquis were going to be a problem). That new Mamm is one of the coolest plants I've ever seen.

[Berengar]

In fact I still have not seen that new Mammillaria Bertholdii for sale.

Really? There are a couple on auction every week on ebay in Europe, 50-80 euro per small grafted plant. Seeds are 50 euro for 10. From what I've read, it's very difficult to extract the seeds from M. bertholdii because the fruit ripens inside the body of the plant like some other Mammilaria, and they don't germinate easily without treatment.

But valdezii is quite common in Europe now, lots of people sell grafted plants for reasonable prices, 10 euro and up, and many of them are producing a fair number of seed. But both plants and seeds are usually not sold openly, because the prices for 'stooges' would drop considerably, this way they sell them for ridiculous prices on ebay, and for a fraction of that to fellow growers and collectors.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/87-MAMMILLARIA-BERTHOLDII-ariocarpus-/361403062245?hash=item54254d17e5

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1117-Mammillaria-bertholdii-GIFT-rare-cactus-ariocarpus-kaktus-/391275819158?hash=item5b19db3096

Edited October 6, 2015 by Berengar

[nut]

Wow I haven't looked on any international Ebay sites in long while. For someone in Australia it gets a bit much to take. The low prices and rarities that is. I had no idea it was so freely available. Do you know how that occurred was it due to this propagation program I was told of or the usual illegal stuff? The botanist who found it was pretty determined to keep the site a secret for as long as possible. How many vendors sell it? Would love to know how they get at the seed given what you say Berengar. Funny I just had a look at which country's the vendors were in. Eastern Europe. What is it about Eastern Europe and very rare recently discovered cacti showing up for sale?

Edited October 7, 2015 by nut

[Berengar]

I can't tell you that for sure, there are always allegations of poaching whenever a newly discovered plant pops up for sale. It is not as widely available as A. valdezii has become, even though it's quite easy to propagate by grafting offsets, so I'd guess even if it was poached, it was in very low numbers. I haven't seen even one specimen on it's own roots, so that would suggest there are no habitat specimens in any significant numbers in Europe. Personally I'm aware of 4 collectors who sell grafted specimens, all of them from Eastern Europe, but I'm sure soon there will be more of them given the number of distributed plants.

And I wouldn't generalize too much, it's not really about 'Eastern Europe', it's more about those few huge collectors and growers who happen to live in Czech republic and Poland and have connections in Latin America, botanists or otherwise, from there they first sell to nearby growers in various cactus fairs and exhibitions, which are popular in that part of Europe.

And regarding seeds, people are still just speculating, in some species of Mammillaria the seeds can't be extracted without destroying the plant, so people think it could be the same with bertholdii. That's the reason that there are so few seeds of M. luetheyii for sale for example, even tough it's relatively common grafted plant.Time will tell I guess.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Berengar

[Spanishfly]

Don´t beat yourself up, Psyentist, it is probably true to say that there are more A. valdezii in the world today than there were before it was discovered - all the plants that have been poached have been looked after and bred with care. It is just that they are not in their wild habitat.

I must confess that I bought two Ariocarpus bravoanus - a plant discovered in the 1990s - and now almost wiped out in the wild. I was assured that my two were from seed sown in Europe - and they have produced a couple of offspring - one of which has itself just flowered.

I also bought seed of Astrophytum caput-medusae - discovered in 2002 - the location of the habitat of this one appears to have been kept secret - and have now got one of the few flowering examples of this in captivity on its own roots.

[spore]

I've always had good luck using GA3 with aztekium seeds to increase the germination rates. They're super hard to handle physically though.

I have 300 aztekium seeds I am trying to plot out my sowing technique. Just curious how you apply the GA3 to the seeds, any other tips you might have as well as progress on your seedlings?

Cheers,

Nick