Damned criminals

[Auxin]

Well its started. My damned government started another damned illegal, damned shameful, damned unjustified war. I was hoping the global community could stop them, but noone stopped them and now tens of thousands (maby hundreds of thousands) of people will be murdered for no good reason and the people of the world will be given even more reason to HATE my country.

If you hate this unjustified war, or just want to read stuff the white house doesnt allow on CNN visit http://www.truthaboutwar.org/home.shtmlTruth About War

If you like what they have to say, want to help spread the message, and have a web site you can put their banner on your site to help spread the word of the dastardly nefarious crimes my government is perpetrating.

They have two banners available, this one:

http://www.truthaboutwar.org

Or this one:

http://www.truthaboutwar.org

I have the first one on every page of my site. The more sites its on, the more people will learn just what kind of war criminal bastards my government is composed of.

The world needs to unite and oppose the war crimes and unjustified military actions of my government.

Boycott US goods.

Protest US actions.

Write your government officials daily (all of them) demanding diplomatic and economic actions be taken against my criminal government.

These bastards are murdering innocent people in my name and I'm PISSED!!!

Help me stop the war crimes, help me stop the war.

If you think the US gov't will stop their international agressions with Iraq you are wrong, they are already targeting other countries. In the end the whole world will suffer.

Help me stop the war crimes, help me stop the war.

[Auxin]

Sorry Harry. I almost forgot to mention the efforts of Harry Browne in stoping these crimes. You can check out his site at http://www.harrybrowne.org/ he writes many good articles pointing out the lies, crimes, and war-mongering false logic of my government.

-----------------------------------------

If you support the United States you are supporting international terrorism.

[Zu]

Great site, Auxin. Thanks for the link.

Dubya today said:

"Saddam Hussein has placed Iraqi troops and equipment in civilian areas, attempting to use innocent men, women and children as shields for his own military, a final atrocity against his people."

I think we can easily translate that to mean: "we don't care who we bomb. Yeehah!"

What a fucking sad day this is.

[MrBumpy]

Zu : yeah, I was watching the TV when he said that...I've been wanting to ask the question for a while, whats worse, that sadam is using 'human sheilds' or that Dubya is still willing to bomb those sights to fuck, even though he is well aware of the innocents in the way.

I thought collateral damage was from accidents.

-bumpy

[waterdragon]

i've boycotted u.s goods for some years now, not always possible to discern who owns what because of our vague labelling laws. true power will eventually come from the consumers ability to spend wisely.

for some reason the citezenry of the united states seems content to harbour war criminals.

[Torsten]

In a recent poll 45% of americans stated that Saddam is responsible for the 9/11 attacks. If stupidity is so rampant can you really expect the people to make informed decisions.

The UN estimates that 500,000 people will be killed or mamed (ie they might as well be dead) by this war. So when the US says 'we will make every effort to spare civilians', then this means they will try not to kill more than 500,000. The term hasn't been used yet, but usually they call this 'collateral damage'.

I also have another problems with all this. The english and australian governments keep saying that we should support our troops and not vent our anger on them. Personally I have to question the reasoning in this. Any australian soldier could have disqualified himself from going to this war if they refused the immunisation. So in fact all the troops that are there are so at their own choice. I have over the years come to realise that we need defence forces in this world (at this stage of our human development/regression) and understand them being used defensively (ie, on our soil). Under certain conditions I might even become a guerilla fighter myself. But this does not excuse aggression and deployment overseas.... especially not where the case has not been made very well.

So, NO, I don't support our troops. Everyone has responsibility for their own actions and I feel only too often do we hide behind 'the chain of command'.

[nabraxas]

i agree w/everything you said torsten except

"come to realise that we need defence forces in this world (at this stage of our human development/regression) and understand them being used defensively (ie, on our soil)."

if i was in power, i would do away w/all the defence forces- however i would install a gun safe in every household, w/an assalt rifle & give the key to 1 registered & fully trained adult in every house.

isn't a well armed populace the ultimate defence?

[Zu]

Torsten:

The english and australian governments keep saying that we should support our troops and not vent our anger on them.

It struck me as a ploy to sway the undecided to be pro-war or at least not protest. It implies that there is a large contingency of people slagging off soldiers (though I have only heard of one such situation - Cairnes a month ago). Patriotic morons will assume that all anti-war protestors are automatically also anti-digger.

My television was lucky to make it through howard's speech in one piece last night.

[Torsten]

Originally posted by nabraxas:

if i was in power, i would do away w/all the defence forces- however i would install a gun safe in every household, w/an assalt rifle & give the key to 1 registered & fully trained adult in every house.

isn't a well armed populace the ultimate defence?

Kinda like switzerland. I fully agree. Mindless drones are a little esier to control though than a country of well armed defenders. Imagine trying to convince a well armed populace to come to the port so they can be shipped off to the gulf.....

If people have to take responsibility for their actions then many such things wouldn't happen.

zu - Johnny is becoming to insincere in his appearance to be really unfuriating anymore.

[FragmentedSanity]

Lo all

While I agree that an armed populace would be a nice security measure, I dont think it could replace a defensive force. I believe it would help lower the crime rate in the country, as trying to commit a crime against someone who can lethally resist is less appealing. But imagine for a second that the americans (or for that matter anyone with most any kind of military) invaded... Yeah - it'd be nicer to go out trying to defend yourself rather than waiting to be... dealt with, but it still wouldnt be effective. little guns cant shoot down planes and tanks and missiles, not to mention that military is TRAINED.

As it stands it would be nice if we were armed as our military is a joke - which is exactly why the government feels the need to suck up to our "very close allies" if this country ever faces invasion we'll be stuffed if our allies dont come and bail us out.

IMO an armed populace can only augment the defencive power of the military. Id feel a hell of a lot more secure now if the pollies hadnt spent the last 20 years trying to disarm the populace.

later

FS

[Gwydion]

FS and nabraxas, I would agree but for one or two points.

You cannot give weapons to people without training them how to use them. The more training in a situation where, for example, the US were to invade, the better.

You need not give out only little guns. Community centres could be used to store larger arms depos, for use by the community in an emergency. In fact, this is where most of the arms should be kept.

However, all of this depends upon one very important thing: EDUCATION!!!! The real ultimate defence.

If you have a nation of uneducated boobs who are armed to the teeth, it could get rather hairy.

The other important thing is a developed and mature community spirit.

And if anyone doubts that a nation of armed people can resist uS aggression I ask you to look to Vietnam and Cuba.

Venceremos!

[FragmentedSanity]

 

quote:

---

... you have a nation of uneducated boobs who are armed to the teeth

---

hehe - dosent that kinda describe the US

not to mention some of the rednecked rural communities Ive seen...

But I totally agree, anyone who uses any kind of weapon should be trained in how to use it safely and effectively.

But seeing as having our government arm us for our own protection is about as likley as Bush deciding that he was wrong and recalling all the troupes its really not something to worry about.

Wouldnt things just be so much better if the world were run by sensible people.

FS

[Darklight]

Torsten:

 So in fact all the troops that are there are so at their own choice.

Maybe many are when they leave here for there. But after a week or three in battle they may well have a different opinion... Some of the most pertinent insights I've gained into war, the manipulative way governments wage it, the terrible effects on individuals involved have been received from ppl who have fought in a war. Experience is possibly our most valuable teacher.

No matter if this war lasts a week or ten years, the insights gained by people who have very direct experience in this- at any stage- should never be assumed to be identical to the propaganda pushed by the media and government. It would be one of the reat mistakes of history not to learn from our errors

[ 21. March 2003, 18:09: Message edited by: Darklight ]

[Rev]

FragmentedSanity:

As it stands it would be nice if we were armed as our military is a joke - which is exactly why the government feels the need to suck up to our "very close allies" if this country ever faces invasion we'll be stuffed if our allies dont come and bail us out.

I think the notion of being invaded in Australia is a fantastic farce, one that has its roots far back in the political propaganda machine

being a sparesly populated country so far from the 'mother country' made us paranoid to begin with. Then Britain needed our help in WW1 and to make the threat seem real they created the propaganda machine to terrify us with the prospect of the 'Invading Huns'

And again in WW2 with the propaganda about the yellow hordes descending on us from the north

each time there is aconflict the Australian government / media machine freaks us out by bringing up this threat

Its bullshit

A japanese submersible in sydney harbour a nd afew dozen air raids on a shanty town called darwin did not constitute and invasion threat

The japanese were doomed from the start. they tried to bulid an empire of islands with no industrialised states except their own

they were very effective at taking islands - especially as the native populations were at first thought the prospects of another asian power as being perhaps a vehicle of liberation - asia for the asians and all that - but they soon found the japanese were worse masters than the brits and french( perhaps not so much the dutch though). Almost as soon as they took the place be it singapore or bali - the native populations turned against them

I think we as a nation have to come to terms with the fact that we have the most modern and highly equipped armed forces in the region and are in no threay of inavsion of our sovereignty - rather we have become neo-colonial aggressors - the US deputy - make me almost long to be 'the arse end of the world' again instead - at least that can be said with a laugh

the only country in the region with a decent army by numbers is Indonesia and despite the propagnda that sometimes comes up im sure they have absolutely no intention of colonising this country. Any conflict would surely be over the timor oil fields which Australia sent in troops to 'liberate' - why else wait 24 years?

the pendulum has now swung the opposite way with islands (near nusa tenggara) that are legitimately indonesian caught in a zone that timor and australia are carving up

amongst oil interests. And theyre pissed off at being ignored

President megawati is ignoring them for the time being for political reasons (not wanting to dent further indonesias appearance after the timor atrocities) - as is the aussie media (not wanting attention to our own oil grabbing antics) - but its going to have to be dealt with sooner or later - and hopefully sooner before it becomes a festering point of animosity between 2 countries whose people really do prefer peace and trade but so far seem to have been prevented developing this relationship because of awful governance

there is no way Australia could be held by an invading force - were too spread out, depend on oil imports to fuel our unsustainable cities and cant even look after our own rural infrastructure in peace time (telstra in the bush?)

we're an administrative and stratgic nightmare. about the last place on earth youd want to invade with military force

[nabraxas]

some exellent stuff there.

gwydion- i agree completely w/the "education bit"-i was just using the "if i was PM" scenerio to shorten the reply. obviously none ov the social working i work for can be achieved w/out educating.

adrian- totally agree.

just to add that a well armed populace can 'bunker' down through any air strikes & emerge to confront invading troops, street by street fighting is virtual suicide -churchill said london could "swallow" a whole army.