Is there a point of no return in meditation?

[Guest Mesqualero]

On a number of occasions whilst meditating with my gf we have reached a certain "height" or "level" that seems to be the point of no return.

Now I don't know if I am being drastic or dramatic, but at a certain point we both decide to refrain from going any higher and afterwards we are quite sure that if we were to go any higher there is a possibility that we would not come back at all.

Has anyone experienced this? We are not really afraid of what lies beyond this "barrier" that we perceive, but apprehensive as to what may happen to us if we do decide to go as far as we can.

It isn't a barrier as such as there is nothing stopping us from going higher except our own apprehension. We are basically worried that to go any higher means to depart from the physical world altogether.

We are definitely still connected to this reality and for the moment have no wish of "leaving" (whatever that means) even if we could as there are still many things we have to accomplish in our lives.

Maybe I am just full of shit and this is my ego talking, my ego being afraid of finally being beaten by the SELF.

But I am not sure... maybe we will know when the time is right to go as far as we can possibly go..

Mesqualero.

[Guest DragonFyre]

hey Mesq do you also project or are you just meditating at this stage? Cuz even though you were very vauge in your description this is sounding familiar... and if you are projecting remember that your always connected to your body by the 'silver cord' (umbilical cord of sorts)

if your interested in finding out more just Email me and I'll send you some info or something to look at if you want.

I also wouldnt mind talk to you (or anyone) about your meditation tequniques as I always have had problems with concentration, etc. so meditation can be hard at times for me, especially in those stressful times which is something Im trying to get past

[Guest Ramon]

The ego ( concept of self as sepparate entity ) is a very persistent delusion and when this is challenged it can fight back with all sorts of trickery.

[HyperSpaceCowboy]

without meaning to stretch too far from the initial topic, is there a point of no return through smoking dmt? is there a sliver cord?

[Pablo]

how do you guys do it? i'm like the other dude i just can sit there not doing anything for more than a few mins. any tips? just keep trying and it'll get easier?

[Darklight]

Originally posted by assassin:

how do you guys do it?

I taught myself to meditate when I was about 12, stopped for about 20 years and realised I'd forgotten last year. Additionally I have the attention span of a newt

A friend reminded me thus: sat me in a dark room with a candle burning and told me to look at the flame from about 50cm away while seated. Concentrate on the flame without burning your eyes out, when you can close your eyes and retain the image of the candle, you'll probably find that the physical location of the focus is where, in many belief systems, the third eye is located.

Retain the candle image, eyes shut. Breathing should regulate and concentration should flow. When you have the hang of this, remove the candle image while maintaining focus and you'll be at the starting point for meditating. Where you go next depends on what you believe, what you're aiming for, and a whole pile of other stuff.

Worked for me, no idea if it works for anyone else. What does everyone else think?

[Guest Mesqualero]

Originally posted by DragonFyre:

hey Mesq do you also project or are you just meditating at this stage? Cuz even though you were very vauge in your description this is sounding familiar..

ok normally when I meditate I just take some deep breaths and imagine that i am breathing the space around me and that i am breathing light.. that i am breathing with the heartbeat of the earth.. I try different methods depending on my mood, sometimes I will just "stare" with closed eyes and try to project my stare about 10 cms in front of my forehead and situate my attention on the area where the third eye is.

Doing this I notice a purple swell begin to form and from there as I try and watch my thoughts form and dissipate without influencing which way the thoughts will go..I try and watch in a detatched way.

After a while of doing this all the little skitterish and frivolous thoughts start to disappear and images will form and dissolve into other images much like Closed eye visuals of a Psychedelic Experience... these can be played with.. and experimented with..

This is the normal state that i enter into during meditation.. and so i suppose i would call it a threshold experience..

Beyond this however I have had basically three different experiences...

1 Rarely I will start to "see" an intense light start to form from behind my eyes and as I breathe deeper and deeper the light surrounds me and engulfs me and i feel like I am truly breathing lightand that i am totally consumed by light. This generally happens when I meditate in the sun or during the day anywhere that the suns rays can reach me. On a cloudy day once I did this and the clouds parted and the sun seemed to shine directly upon me with an intensely Bright but not hot light... and when i stopped meditating the clouds covered up the sun again.

2 At night time I will get past the Closed Eye visual stage and experience a sense of buzzing in my body and what feels like my astral body starts to roll and twist inside my body but my head always stays attached.

3 this has happened a couple of times but only with my grifriend meditating with me. We sit crosslegged together with our thirdeyes touching

We quickly move past the Visual stage... in a very short time.. less than a minute (it just seems to happen) there is a sense of lightness in my body a high pitched throbbing pulsating sound and a sense of suddenly being very far away... at this point our heads draw apart and it seems we are a step away from transcending this reality... I dont know it is hard to describe the feeling... but perhaps like 5meodmt would be but more personal less in your face... and with the chance of stopping the ride if neccessary...

I honestly thought one night we could have just disappeared and never came back if we wanted to.

[Guest Thelema]

Actually, the feeling you are describing is the dissolution of the ego, and as such can only be appreciated as a one-sided limit. So in no uncertain terms, there is nowhere for "us" or for "you" to go after this point.

This is how zen masters manage to meditate for days on end in this state.

Its not really a question of us being afraid to go any further, although I do appreciate that the fiction of the ego will protect itself...I think the truth is in the end we cannot remain in that state (or more correctly state-lessness)for any longer than our animal bodies will let us. Man is truly between heaven and earth!

Any appearance of 'progress' after this point is illusion, and in fact shows that you have returned to a state prior to that point. Zen buddhism has a term "killing the bodhisvatta" which means that you should ignore things like this.(images, feelings, communications etc.)

[Pablo]

thanks darklight and mesq, will definitely try it out

[Guest DragonFyre]

maybe this topic should be moved to the magic/spiritual section of these forums?

Well this is what I know, I hope it helps those out there looking to be helped

Astral travel/projection or being 'awake in a dream' is actually when our astral body seperates from our physical body, this happens every night when we sleep and is very natural part of anyones life so there is NEVER anything to be really (physically) afraid of in the astral (though there are negative entities, you can b taugh conjerations to protect you from these) infact any surge of great emotion can bring you back to the physical world, *especially* fear... its hard to get there (at first), not hard to come back. The only time one wont come back is the time of death when the divine spirits sever the silver cord when one is in the astral plane. Although there can also be ego disollution as mentioned earlier which is rarely achieved apart from those very rare few masters out there

I have read *alot* about drug-induced states and how it affects dream/astral travels and all the news is all BAD... hell in one spiritual course I enrolled, the person running it infact says he has watched Shamans doing their ceromonies in the astral world and its actually the 'lesser astral' as one is poisoning ones self to become in that state and is not pure of mind nor focused, sometimes these can result -as mentioned in one thread with Mandrake- in leading to another lesser dimension with 'sadistic masters'.

However this is where herbs such as Mugwort and Calea come into the equation (Mugwort being used specifically for astral travel!!) Also one of the first things your taught to do is to invoke spirits, they can be anyone from angels, arch angels, elementals, dead people (whom live in the astral and travel to other dimensions from there) and many other spiritual entities and all maner of beings, including the divine beings (and divine mother and father). One figure that interested me was Hippocrates, as he was a traveller and a user of Mugwort! Another commonly visited person is Master Anubis, or the 'Keeper of Karma'

Another thing I find facinating though is with every 'level' you gain up, you must also go down... its like heaven and hell with alot of levels inbetween, once you finish the first level up, you have to finish the first down b4 you can go onto the second level up... there must always remain a balance of good and evil. The main use of the astral also if for learning (mainly spiritual things) so try not to waste your time fucking around if you achieve projection and always be respectful to all spirits/entities there and never try anything sexual or the like (use common sense basically)

my meditation techniques sound very similar to Darklights, I sit on my bed cross legged with a candle held in both hands at arms length and focus on the flame till I can take the image into my mind... eventually I can produce an image of my minds eye (very purple like your description mesq... alot of red n blue also) and I watch the eye open (or close if I narrow my mind to certain thoughts) though I havent had heaps of success doing much more from there

Usually this is done at night right b4 sleeping or 'travelling' and once I realize my minds eye is somewhat active, I will blow out the candle, lie back, pray a quick prayer to the divine spirits to help and then try to imagine my bodies seperating, once you think that it has happened the only way to know is to either stand up and try to jump as you can FLY in the astral world! Full on try it when you get there (if you can) or just try to stretch a finger... The main things to remember is that the subconsious can mask or hide anything that really exists in the astral so one must try and discover what is really there (mainly thru spiritual teaching you can recieve from spirits/entities in the astral - its almost like a learning plane) It's a pretty indepth things obviously and I have only just started to scratch at the surface here... anyone wanting more info should mail me privately and I will send out some info to get you started. Everyone has there own lessons in life to learn also and what is leant in the astral is for one's knowledge and sharing this can stop your travels/teachings for a time which also makes it hard for anyone to go indepth in this topic (unless they want reprocussions) Im hope none come of this post, as Im just trying to help others onto their own spiritual paths

I guess now Im the crazy one, huh Mesq?

[This message has been edited by DragonFyre (edited 11 April 2002).]

[Guest DragonFyre]

and for those interested, Quantum Physics is the study of the astral planes and the other dimensions out there - The Astral plane being part of the 5th Dimension, the other part of that dimension being the mental plane which is just above the astral

and all this has been scientifically proven so stick that up ya all those non-believers

The truth is out there, you just gotta have all three of your eyes open to find it

[This message has been edited by DragonFyre (edited 11 April 2002).]

[Guest DragonFyre]

also (this is mainly for Mesq) the 6th and 7th dimension can be reached thru heavy meditative techniques and complete silence of the mind (especially any animal states; emotion, reaction, intuition, instincts, etc), combined with light sleep states. These are the dimensions which are beyond words and cannot easily be described. They are beyond the mind as the mind is in the mental plane (the 'upper' 5th dimension). The 2 higher dimensions 6th (electronic spiritual - where all life emanates from) and 7th (spirit) are beyond words because they are experienced only with consciousness, not with the mind. I have had been told that practicing this kind of mediation can be completely different to the astral plane and the experiences of the 5th dimension.

[Guest Mesqualero]

Thanks for your in-depth response to my post Dragonfyre I would be greatly appreciative of any info you can send me

[Guest DragonFyre]

heres an Australian site I just found about Astral Travel and Esoteric Teachings, I've only just started browsing the site but so far I must say its the best Ive seen and looks pretty indepth... should be able to cover anyones questions and theres a forum you could post to if you wanted to ask more

http://www.mysticweb.org

hope this helps you on your path...

[Guest VENDEJO]

Originally posted by DragonFyre:

The truth is out there, you just gotta have all three of your eyes open to find it    

[This message has been edited by DragonFyre (edited 11 April 2002).]

I just want to mention at this point that you should be VERY careful when considering opening up your third eye. A lot of people have their's closed because they can't cope with the extra sensory information (that's putting it very lightly).

And don't talk about this spiritual stuff to just anyone! You could get locked away in a mental hospital. For real.

What I find amazing is that in China everyone seems to be aware that a third eye exists (they call it the "Ghost Eye" related to fact that you can see spirits). In the Western world it would be generally be regarded as Bullshit.

[Guest VENDEJO]

This is a very simple method of meditation to learn.

It's the path Jesus, Sidartha Gautama and Mohammed chose.

It's called the Quan Yin method. Quan Yin means "contemplating inner sound".

It's important to have a Master to help guide you in your spiritual practice before you are a Master (of) yourself.

This practice is free of charge. I have found that there is a lot of combined ease in meditation when meditating with others so if you'd like to learn this technique, and find a local venue to practice here are some contact details.

Melbourne:

Mr Alan Khor (03) 9857 4239

Sydney:

(02) 9724 4997

Brisbane:

(07) 3344 2518

Adelaide:

(08) 243 1542

Perth:

(09) 242 1189

[Guest VENDEJO]

Oh yeah Jesus, Sidartha Gautama and Mohammed all meditated on a regular basis.

A wise move?

I think it is also a very good idea to be Vegetarian and follow the five precepts/ten commandments, i.e.:

1. Refrain from taking the life of sentient beings.(Thou shall not kill).

2. Refrain from speaking what is not true.

3. Refrain from taking what is not offered.

(Thou shall not steal).

4. Refrain from sexual misconduct.

(No adultery/coveting thy neighbour's wife or lusting after their Kingswood).

5. Refrain from the use of intoxicants(!).

(No drinking alcohol).

The woman who has been spreading the Word (so to speak) is Ching Hai. She is the least selfish "Master" I have ever encountered. She regularly visits people around the world. She won't accept any donations. All of it is free of charge, even books/videos/cassettes (w/music that can help you relax into meditation easier).

Although she wouldn't seek it, she has been given many awards for her humanitarian work - for example, October 25 1993 was proclaimed "The Suma Ching Hai Day" by the Mayor of Honolulu, Hawaii, and so was February 22, 1994 by the governors of the States of Illinois, Iowa, Wisconsin, Kansas, Missouri and Minnesota. She has also received the "World Peace Award" in Honolulu, and the "World Spiritual Leadership Award" at a ceremony in Chicago on February 22, 1994.

Master Ching Hai gives lectures to interested students relating to their background and culture - i.e. Christians, Muslims, Buddhist or Taoists, etc.

She speaks English, French, German, Chinese and Au Lac language (a Vietnamese dialect).

Those who wish to learn and practice the Quan Yin Method with Master Ching Hai are welcome to receive her initiation.

Oh yeah, she learned this Quan Yin Method from a Master in Tibet.

She even answers questions e-mailed to her!!!

[Guest VENDEJO]

[email protected]

Oh yeah I find praying during meditation works well, as you're in a sincere mental state.

[Guest Mesqualero]

Originally posted by VENDEJO:

This is a very simple method of meditation to learn.

It's the path Jesus, Sidartha Gautama and Mohammed chose.

It's called the Quan Yin method.  Quan Yin means "contemplating inner sound".

It's important to have a Master to help guide you in your spiritual practice before you are a Master (of) yourself.

This practice is free of charge.  I have found that there is a lot of combined ease in meditation when meditating with others so if you'd like to learn this technique, and find a local venue to practice here are some contact details.

Melbourne:  

Mr Alan Khor (03) 9857 4239

Sydney:

(02) 9724 4997

Brisbane:

(07) 3344 2518

Adelaide:

(08) 243 1542

Perth:

(09) 242 1189

So basically we just ring this number. and say "uhh this guy on the computer said I should call you about meditation..."

I went to the www.chinghai.com website but couldnt find anything relating to practitioners in Australia...

This practice sounds alot like "Sant Mat" a science of Indian origins meaning Science of the Saints or Holy Path.

http://www.santmat.net/international/main.htm

[Guest DragonFyre]

hmmm, guess I mustn't have made myself clear here, Astral Travel is WHERE you go to learn about spirituality, from spiritual beings, angels(masters) and divine beings and the like, your NOT taught by someone in the physical world!

Im not saying that other forms of religion/spirituality are wrong, just most misguided - even when they are led by someone who is pure of heart this person may not be on the correct path! If your interested in getting some one-on-one though there are courses in Brisbane, Melbourne and Sydney for those interested, just look at the site I posted earlier to find the information

Not saying that you have to follow this, just offering it for advise to those open-minded individuals out there that ARE looking for REAL answers in life

hope this helps

oh and by the way, Jesus, Buddah, etc were all meditators, yes but they were also Astral travelers!!!! Makes you think huh?!?

[This message has been edited by DragonFyre (edited 13 April 2002).]

[Darklight]

Originally posted by DragonFyre:

just offering it for advise to those open-minded individuals out there that ARE looking for REAL answers in life

And the rest of us are just sitting round with our hands down our pants if we happen to disagree with you? We should all stop what we're doing and agree with you at once or risk being wrong?

oh and by the way, Jesus, Buddah, etc were all meditators, yes but they were also Astral travelers!!!! Makes you think huh?!?

Makes me think you'd better check your sources. Or perhaps they communicated this with you over dinner one night?

I know of several deeply religious and/ or spiritual ppl who while being absolutely charming and equally certain of their correctness might disagree with you. And given that your statement is one of those things which is currently unverifiable I find it endearing that you are able to communicate your Truth ( TM ) with us in such terms of vehement absoluteness

I have a deep suspicion of totalitarian certainty. It leaves no room for improvement

[Guest DragonFyre]

hey Darklight, Im not saying that this IS the way to go, Im just asking people to look into it, cuz if they actually did instead of criticizing people whom are just trying to help then they might be able to see the truth for themselves, especially if they are open-minded enough to get past their own ego's and maybe consider someone else's point of view

also this isnt MY point of view, Im actually spreading the word on behalf of SOMEONE ELSE (whom help enliten me to the spiritual world) and also from my own personal experience in the matter... maybe if you looked into it, you might get some personal experience on the matter too and change that last post

then again maybe you'll just remain close-minded like most people out there

[This message has been edited by DragonFyre (edited 13 April 2002).]

[Guest DragonFyre]

Like I said before, I was just trying to HELP! If you dont wanna listen, dont - its that simple, personally I dont wanna waste my time arguing about stupid religions that arent REAL... they are shells with no esoteric beliefs behind them anymore and most these days are just out there to get into peoples pockets and to say that their religion is the only one and the only way to go

notice how I just said there was such a thing as astral travel (I wasnt pushing any religions upon anyone) and if you dont believe me by following the link posted above you can find out for yourself if you take the time to look

also this may be a good time to tell people less than 6 months ago I was a complete athiest?!? I've had my eyes opened for me, and thank god is all I can say

[Guest DragonFyre]

or should that rather be thanx to the divine mother and father? hmmm... I think so, you dont need agree

[Guest Mesqualero]

I think that what vendejo posted is not a religion per se but a method of Meditation which is utilised in many different socities with much success....

The concept on meditating on the "inner sound" whilst focusing the attention on the third eye, and perhaps contemplation of a Perfect Living Master is quite a common one and in most Systems that teach this there is no form of Dogma whatsoever..

I am not discrediting anyone.. All truths are true to the ppl who hold them to be true :

like that one?

The only certain truth is that life is eternal and all there is is ISNESS

Take care all