Grafting a fast large growing cactus on a small slow growing root?

[kapitän kamasutra]

I wonder some time now. Could a Trichocereus be grafted on a root stock like Lophophora or Mammillara to produce a bonsai on the window sil with mature appearance, maybe even mini flowers?

I'm about to try it with a Mammillaria, but even if this works I see a problem that the Trichocereus will root on its own after some time.

Do you know if this has been done before? Also if you have any recommendations about easy, hardy and steady but small growing species I could use as root stock please tell me.

[Evil Genius]

Havent done this but i guess growth rates will be reduced. You can graft on almost everything if you do it right so it might be worth a try. Dont think it will look like a bonsai though.

[kapitän kamasutra]

Dont think it will look like a bonsai though.

Meh, naysayer . I'm not too optimistic neither, especially on the mini flowers...but

I put a Trichocereus seedling on Mammillaria gracilis pup. Lets see

[Auxin]

I had the same idea a while back.

I tried grafting a trich on to Echinopsis chamaecereus (Peanut Cactus) and grafting that to pereskiopsis, it exploded 20 pups and rejected the trich to feed them Next time I'll leave out the peres or cut off any areole as it pupped faster than I could cut pups off.

Stuff I've considered doing is centered on small guys from the trich tribe

Echinopsis mamillosa, a little guy, globose to short cylindrical depending on variety/subspecies, possibly flowering at 8cm dia. Hardier selections exist.

Echinopsis silvestrii (another 'Peanut Cactus') small and easy. Offsets a lot tho.

Lobivia arachnacantha syn. Echinopsis ancistrophora ssp arachnacantha easy spring/summer flowerer, a tolerant 'beginners cactus', flowers

Echinopsis subdenudata Globose, which might be a limiter, looks like a T. terscheckii before it goes columnar but with scopulicola spines for easier grafting and pup excision, flowers when small.

Trichocereus candicans syn Echinopsis candicans, I've variously heard them reported as fast growers that are easy to flower and slow growers for trichs. They flower when 50-90 cm in height and never get huge but form clumps instead, which would have to be restricted. Stems to 10 cm diam.

Edited July 15, 2013 by Auxin

[bogfrog]

Could be a bit of fun!

I like using very small trichocereus seedlings as stock for grafting astros and other slow growers becuase they keep a nicer form.

I haven't tried fast growing cacti on slow growing stock but i don't see any reason why it wouldn't work.

I don't know what the chances are of decreasing the flower size, although having the stock restricted in a small pot would most likely help.

Heres some of my mini grafts, the scions don't grow very quickly at all, so perhaps using baby trichocereus could be worth a try. The smallest I have grafted on was about 3cm tall.

[Kykeion]

bogfrogs post reminded me of this post I came across in another forum here (I don't think registration is necessary to view thread, but I may be set to auto login there so...?). It sounds like he has had some success with it. I suppose you could also attempt the graft the "left overs" there by putting tricho scions on slower stock IDK what the success rate would be, but it is all just waste at that point anyway.

[Auxin]

I've done similar to that threads tek.

In that seedling graft thread they cut off the roots and left some stock areoles on, like a miniature graft using unrooted stem cuts, what I did was to grow some Echinocactus texensis (very large and meaty seedlings), leave them potted, cut at just below the cotylodons, pop the seedling scions on top, and weight them on with a strip of plastic with coins stacked on the end or a strip of latex thread-sealing tape stretched over each one and taped to the pot sides (great stuff to use for peres graft straps too, and reusable). True hypocotyl graft. I got 2/3 success despite them still being in dirt and astros grafted as such grew 4 times as fast as ungrafted seedlings. Essentially grafting nothing but a more vigorous and less rot prone taproot on.

[kapitän kamasutra]

Thank you for your input!

This seedling roots/top swapping looks excelent. I did a swap with 4 Lophophora and Trichocereus seedlings last night. Unfortunatly I was not using anything to hold the scions down, this was a mistake. The Lopho tops on the Tricho roots are looking good, but two of the Tricho tops have fallen off allready.

I try to save them, but I think i have to redo the operation with more care this weekend. When success and camera i shall post pictures of them.

Auxin, your idea with early flowering Echinopsis is probably a good one. I think I better find something that is not growing much pups. I was thinking more tiny, like Turbinicarpus-tiny but faster, but I don't realy think that will work. The Tricho scion would put out own roots when it get restricted from the stock I imagine. I want to try anyway. Grafting to a cold and wet tolerant Opuntia root looks like a good idea, too. For german winters outdoor. O. fragilis or O. phaeacantha are saied to be cold and wet tollerant. Are there any other cactus you know that can deal with wet soil and freezing temperatures?

I'm not having to high hopes in all of this, I imagine this has all been tryed before, and I don't see fancy cactus in front gardens here.

Edited July 19, 2013 by spined

[Bert&Ernie]

Trich's and cereus would tolerate wet feet peres would aswell but I guess you are looking for some slow growing ones? There probably isnt many....

[Auxin]

I don't see fancy cactus in front gardens here.

Because people put them in their back gardens and greenhouses to keep them from being stolen

You should take a good look at benny's exploits, his garden is located north of you!

[benny's]

[kapitän kamasutra]

jwerta the wet feet tollerant species question was already a new project, I'm was a bit erratic there, sorry.

This seedling root grafting technique opens totaly new perspectives for me!

I think Trichocereus stems would freeze here in winter even if the root could survive it.

Lophophora on the other hand could be covert with leafs or something and keept outdoors on wet tollerant roots. Maybe.

Bennys site is great, very helpfull, cheers!

There is a long list of potential Opuntia stocks.

Going to try get my hands on some seeds or cuttings.

[Kykeion]

Spined you should check out some of the posts in THIS blog. He has been doing some long term experiments with growing arios, lophs and other small cacti year round in an unheated green house in Denmark. There is also a ton of cacti porn to be found on his blog.

[kapitän kamasutra]

I know this blog and like it very much. I already jumped the bandwagon and bought seeds from a western texas Lophophora variety.

Apparently the winter temperatures are not a problem for them outdoors in germany, but without protection the tap roots would rot in the cold and humid weather I'm sure.

But with the root of a Opuntia fragilis or similar, grafted hypocotyl style. When planted making sure to keep the Lopho part half a cm above the soil line, supported with rocks... who knows, might work.

Gotta get some stocks.

Edited July 24, 2013 by spined

[bogfrog]

I know this blog and like it very much. I already jumped the bandwagon and bought seeds from a western texas Lophophora variety.

Apparently the winter temperatures are not a problem for them outdoors in germany, but without protection the tap roots would rot in the cold and humid weather I'm sure.

Was this var Texana? I have grown them in NZ, quite a cold climate but they have done very well. I'm sure germany would be much more extreme in temps but they are surprisingly tough.

Fine choice sir

[kapitän kamasutra]

Hi Bogfrog! The seeds I got are 'Shafter, Texas'. According to the source here the western Texas populations are more cold hardy, while the southern Texas populations are not so much.

I don't know to which of those the 'texana' variety belongs. I'd like to know, too. I have a 'texana' graft on Trichocereus with a side pup I could use.

My grafting of the 4 Trichocereus to Lophophora roots all failed, no joining but orange rot on the cutting surface.

I regrafted the Trichos tops on Peres, if they take I can play with them again later. The Trichocereus on Mammillaria gracilis don't look very prommissing, but I still have hope for this one.

The four reverse grafts with Lophophora tops on Trichocereus roots look good, I think these took.

Its not what I wanted to accomplish in this round, but anyway I think they might turn out nice.

Last night I took pieces of a Cylindropuntia that is supposed to be cold hardy and put some little L.W. 'Shafter' and 'Hipolito mountain form' scions on top.

Not much to see at this point, so i just put in a kanna flower for your viewing pleasur!

Edited August 1, 2013 by spined

[kapitän kamasutra]

These are the Cylindropuntia grafts today, roughly 3 weeks old. So far all the scions have not grown, but have not shrivelt away eighter. And I spotted the first roots on the Cylindropuntia pieces...yey!

When doing the grafts I cut a lot of the skin away of the small stock pieces in order to remove most of the areoles. I'm not sure if this was good. It looks like the open flesh invited some rust, the meristemes are sunken deep into the stem, some new shoots already tryed to form from the sides in spite of cutting the areole.

After putting the scion on the stock they where coverd with pieces of Cylindropuntia skin to help them stay hydrated. Don't know if it helped but so far it didn't hurt them.

5 Seedlings were grafted to Opuntia pads. One is looking good and has swollen alredy, the others didn't make it.

Still no bonsai-Trichocereus or fast growing cactus on slow growing roots in this thread.

Instead Turbinicarpus alonsoi flower

<

Edited August 23, 2013 by spined

[Auxin]

Still no bonsai-Trichocereus or fast growing cactus on slow growing roots in this thread.

Not sure this technically counts...

The diminutive, easy flowering, and fast growing Echinopsis chamaecereus as stock to pups from cold hardiness selected hybrids between T. bridgesii 'SS02' and T. spp. 'Kimuras Giant'.

Now to root them

Edited August 23, 2013 by Auxin

[kapitän kamasutra]

Nice, good luck with the roots! I think that counts.

Did you select the cold hardy seedlings on purpose or just left them a tray in the cold by accident?

How low can they go (temps)?

[Auxin]

Rooting should be easy, E. chamaecereus roots its little 'peanuts' freely.

I do the cold selection on purpose. On those two groups I had fewer seedlings than usual for my cold torture so I exposed them to -15°C for an hour, waited a month and did it again, waited a month and did it a third time. (They have to be thirsty when doing that and pre-chilling to 4° helps reduce shock.) That only killed 78% of the KG X SS02 and 86% of the SS02 X KG. When I have hundreds or over a thousand seedlings I eventually get down to -19°C and do the treatments closer together aiming for a 99 to 99.9% kill rate. What I desperately need for these projects is a way to make the survivors flower in 3 or 4 years, then real work could get done

Edited August 23, 2013 by Auxin

[kapitän kamasutra]

Interesting experiments, I like that.

I left 5 bidgesii seedlings dry and good dehydrated outside in the end of last winter. They stayed around freezing point for several weeks. The nights got colder, lowerst night temp was -12°C. 4 plants dryed out and lost the green colour after a while, but one plant stayed (yellowish) green and was not obviously destroyed by frost next spring. It took up water and stayed around for a couple of weeks but unfortunately it never started growing again and then rotted away.

Bringing down the flowering time might be a very long project on its own. I was thinking to accomplish this with grafting when I started the thread, but not sure about it anymore. With my limited experience with grafts I feel it depends on scion size rather than whatever stock is used to promote a flower, and grafting might only help the process in terms of growing speed, but still the scion needs to reach adulthood, which might be linked to a certain growing size. Scion can flower from stock that itself has not reached flowering size, but I'm not so sure if it works the other way around.

so maybe no bonsai Tricho with flowers...but I'm still trying a bit more grafting soon.

It will be some years till there will be flowers on my Trichocereus, but I'm very interested in the hybrid possibilitys already. Crossing peanut cactus with Trichocereus, making F2, growing a few 1000 and selecting a little clumbing peanut pedro with white flowers.

sounds so easy .

Has someone here ever tryed making a Chamaecereus X Tricho?

Edited August 24, 2013 by spined

[Auxin]

From the searches I did previously, no, it doesnt seem anyone succeeded in that cross and I've not seen anyone mention an attempt.

Chamaecereus will cross with Lobivia, however, and Lobivia X Trichocereus (ornamental species) do apparently exist.

If a chamaecereus and a trich were bred together the cham. pollen might not be capable of growing down that long trich flower style, so either cham should be the mother or the trich style should be cut short and grafted together (if cham fails as a mother).

Its too bad young cacti are so godawful hard to flower. In other types of plants grafting allows for a novel cross breeding strategy. In chillies, soy, tobacco, and many others if mature growth is grafted to mature growth it acts just like a cactus graft, and acts just like highschool biology books teach, the scion acts like its mother plant and none of the stock characteristics get in it and transmit to offspring. We all heard that dogma. The dogma fails in seedlings tho, if a seedling is grafted to an adult plant and immediately flowers the seedling sometimes absorbs a small portion of the stocks genome, like 5%, and that is passed to its offspring. Its a thing thats been proven dozens of times over. If that could be done with cacti, and enough attempts were made, that little 5% crossover could produce some rather interesting progeny!

Thats why most of all I hope a hormone trick is eventually found to make cacti flower.

[kapitän kamasutra]

From the searches I did previously, no, it doesnt seem anyone succeeded in that cross and I've not seen anyone mention an attempt.

Chamaecereus will cross with Lobivia, however, and Lobivia X Trichocereus (ornamental species) do apparently exist.

If a chamaecereus and a trich were bred together the cham. pollen might not be capable of growing down that long trich flower style, so either cham should be the mother or the trich style should be cut short and grafted together (if cham fails as a mother).

Its too bad young cacti are so godawful hard to flower. In other types of plants grafting allows for a novel cross breeding strategy. In chillies, soy, tobacco, and many others if mature growth is grafted to mature growth it acts just like a cactus graft, and acts just like highschool biology books teach, the scion acts like its mother plant and none of the stock characteristics get in it and transmit to offspring. We all heard that dogma. The dogma fails in seedlings tho, if a seedling is grafted to an adult plant and immediately flowers the seedling sometimes absorbs a small portion of the stocks genome, like 5%, and that is passed to its offspring. Its a thing thats been proven dozens of times over. If that could be done with cacti, and enough attempts were made, that little 5% crossover could produce some rather interesting progeny!

Thats why most of all I hope a hormone trick is eventually found to make cacti flower.

Style grafting sounds tricky, lol. I'd imagine having to do microsurgical operation on a closed flowerbud, a couple of days before flower opens.

I'd rather try Chamaecereus as a mother then.

Seriously, I might gonna buy me a nice healty peanut motherplant for christmas. Should be easy to score.

Then January or Feb I can hopefully trade dryed Trichocereus pollen with someone here and get some crossing going. IF crossing works and IF the Chamaecereus growing/flowering traits are dominant in the F1 then this project could be finnished in less than a half lifetime. Sound like a plan.

You are saying chimera happening more often when seedlings are grafted on a stock and then start flowering very soon? Interesting, I never heared about that.

For the flowering hormone it would be cool if it was a paste that miracly makes flowers on treated areoles. They are searching the florigen a long time.

Maybe maybe one could graft a free flowering cactus (like peanut cactus again) on a Trichocereus that shall be forced to flower before its time. Let the Chamaecereus clumbs get big and flower like mad, but also leave a tip of the stock growing. Then hope for that the peanut grafts flowering hormone somehow drips into the stock and the Tricho begins flowering. I don't really think that works but it wouldn't hurt to try it anyway.

Obviously I have time to paint this crappy pictograph, I could do the graft as well

[Auxin]

Reverse transport of (supposedly RNA based) flowering signals does happen on bushy plants, I always thought it odd we dont see it on cacti. I've never seen a Pereskiopsis flower when its scion is flowering. Just one of those mysteries.

Flowering paste a la florigen would be awesome and I've tried all kinds of wacky things like fumigating cacti with ripe apples for a week (ethylene), fumigating with methyl salicylate, feeding 5 µM benzyladenine or 0.01% ferrous sulfate, or 0.01% nicotinic acid, etc, etc, no luck yet. I'll just keep tormenting them until something works

If hand sized palm trees can be induced to flower in erlenmeyer flasks there should damn well be a trick for cacti.

In the seedling graft genetic crossover I described its not chimeric growth, stock DNA actually gets in to the scion cells and becomes immediately heritable.

In E. chamaecereus X Other Stuff F1 hybrids the easily-detaching-peanuts trait is recessive, they often still make little stems but they dont just fall apart, so you'd have to dig the trait back out in F2+n if you wanted the stems to just pop off when you sneeze at them. Its a good way to tell if a chamaecereus your about to buy is pure bred or a hybrid form. It might be a nice trait, cross it with a TBM and give the plant a good shake and penises would just fly all over the place