visions

[nabraxas]

anyone wanna talk about the difference between 'paranoia'-a psychiatric term made common by the drug expeerience ov the 60's/70's- but still indicating a state ov mental unwellness; as opposed to 'suspicious'

eg: if you have a valid reason to believe your phone is bugged ie:you sell drugs & the line has electronic background noises that never used to be there- then you're suspicious. if you have no valid reason outside ov your mind, then you're paranoid.

or how about the difference between 'hallucinations'-which in psychiatry only occur in people with schitzoprhenia; & 'visions' which is alledgedly a better description ov things seen while tripping.

the difference? hallucinations are believed 100%. i knew a woman who believed/hallucinated she had Maddona's hands, anything they did was nothing to do w/her because they were maddona's hands.

supposedly the holy grail ov psychiatry in the early 70's was the search for an ethnogen that would, in healthy people, mimic the effects ov severe mental illness, thereby giving doctors an insight into the condition. i don't think they ever found it(who knows about MKULTRA for sure?), partly because the 2 conditions are so different.

the only thing i've ever tried which came close to screwing the boundries 'tween real & imagined was salvia divinorum, which took me to a place alot closer to delusional than my most intense LSD trip. it's all good thou.

[Torsten]

I found that coming down off a 2 day amphetamine binge I would see and hear things as if they were real. In this state I was also highly suggestive, so my hallucinations would focus on whatever was prevalent in my mind. In many cases this would result in paranoia.

When a family member fell into deep depression and was treated with prozac, after a few months she developed such paranoid hallucinations. These hallucinations themselves became the source of paranoia as this person realised she was loosing her mind. It wasn't until I explained how these things come about and how they can be induced with drugs, that she understood that this is only a matter of neurotransmitters and that it cna be fixed or at least altered.

My partner also went though several years of paranoid delusional behaviour, resulting from an anxiety attack precipitated by a single zoloft tablet. Little things, like 'could anyone have tampered with my water bottle' wold become all-consuming. Again, this was a state so similar to amphetamine psychosis, but in this case it was a little easier to put his mind as ease (at least in the quiet times) as he had experienced such a state as part of amphetamine psychosis before.

While I know little about other endogenic hallucinatory states, I have had quite a bit of experience with paranoia, paranoid delusions, and paranoid psychosis. I can say with great certainty that they are equivalent to states induced by amphetamine overconsumption. What this entails directly I am not 100% sure about just yet, but it is likely to be a state of high adrenaline and low serotonin. I believe the associated level of dopamine appropriately colours the experience, with low dopamine causing fear and paranoia (common), while high dopamine causes friendly/positive delusions (rare).

Most paranoid delusions can be removed (or made intermittent) by increasing serotonin levels and decreasing adrenaline. In the early stages i have also found kava to be helpful. In tha advanced states it appear to cause further concern about 'lack of control'.

The common thread in almost all paranoid and delusional people i have come across is that the fact that they are losing control exacerbates the paranoia. In the very few people where I have managed to sufficintly explain how these states come about, what causes them, and that they are temporary and eventually controllable, the symptoms immediately decreased. These people realised that struggling against it only makes it worse, so the best option is to let it happen and to gather all strenth for when control returns. Alternatively, even in those people where such a surender was possible, in episodes where they failed to surrender the symptoms immediately increased by a multifold.

I believe that the delusional states that are so prevalent in western society have little to do with the rare delusional states respected in traditional cultures. I am certain that these rarer delusional states are tryptamine induced rather than phenethylamine (ie catecholamine) induced. Such tryptamine induced states are inner journeys, while the catecholamine induced states are responses to the ourside world.

[nabraxas]

hmmm... thanks for the thoughtful reply.

" I can say with great certainty that they are equivalent to states induced by amphetamine overconsumption. What this entails directly I am not 100% sure about just yet, but it is likely to be a state of high adrenaline and low serotonin. I believe the associated level of dopamine appropriately colours the experience, with low dopamine causing fear and paranoia (common), while high dopamine causes friendly/positive delusions (rare)."

the amphetamine stuff i can relate to, & as an aside- it's scary how much a room full ov people recovering from a heavy night mdma'ing

resembles a secure ward.

as for paranoid delusions with low seratonin/dopamine levels- i don't think so.

the main drug treatments involve selective seratonin re-uptake inhibitors, & i've been told excess levels ov dopamine are the cause ov many delusional disorders. alledgedly MJ increases the dopamine level, & this is 1 reason why most psychiatrists see a strong link between MJ use & onset ov schitzophrenia(i'm not making this up. i love MJ,-used to be a 'goddess ganja can save the world' dreadlock rasta, but now i recognise MJ as a very potent mind drug, that definately aint for everyone)

[woof woof woof]

Salvia huh, i can imagine. I think that many drugs are capable to do that to a person.

Especially frequent use without getting the proper mental rest or supplementation after psy-realm journeying.

Even shock or other intense experiences an bring about psychosis or other states of mental inbalance.

I have had a the pleasure to experience some vauge moments myself.

The only one thing kept me from losing my groove, and that is knowing that everything is energy.

Knowing that is knowing the bottom line of bottom lines of reason!

I have been reading a book on psychiatry lately. It is amazing & sad at the same time to learn how people their minds deviate, due to obstacles within them selves.

Mental stability is a very good thing to have and to further cultivate (you have to work at it continiously, never stop!).

Tripping is allot of fun if done correctly. There should be a minimum of mental stress involved, a little physical stress should only be there out of discomfort. So get comfortable and follow your fellings.

Remember unconditional love and understanding! When tripping treat everything like you want to be treated!

Hey, feeling good is the name of the game!

All that, because tripping too hard and not learning anything out of the experience ,having bad trips, losing it, etc etc are all things that most of us encounter or have encountered when starting with out droogz.....

I highly reccomend doing some reading/studying/practicing of spiritual, filosophical subjects or what ever chockes your chicken to better understand the inner and outher universe! This definitly increases the pleasure of a trip and makes a little likely to lose your marbles.

Easy does it!!!!!!!!

[woof woof woof]

heh, I have waited too long, two posts while i was writing that, had to work in between.

[woof woof woof]

as for paranoid delusions with low seratonin/dopamine levels- i don't think so.

the main drug treatments involve selective seratonin re-uptake inhibitors, & i've been told excess levels ov dopamine are the cause ov many delusional disorders. alledgedly MJ increases the dopamine level, & this is 1 reason why most psychiatrists see a strong link between MJ use & onset ov schitzophrenia(i'm not making this up. i love MJ,-used to be a 'goddess ganja can save the world' dreadlock rasta, but now i recognise MJ as a very potent mind drug, that definately aint for everyone)

Uhhhh, too much of any transmittor is an imbalance and can cause weird perceptions.

Some people smoke Erb fly high, be mega blasted and Irie. I get speedy ,energetic & sharp. Everything becomes clear to me and I become serious and sensitive to vibes from "the other realms". i literarally see the vibes as energy ripples as if on shrooms or on another hallucinogen.

I see the tensinons between things and have on a very few occasios seen auras clearly. (sensitivity, "The right combo of juices")

I do not have to be on anything to see them energy vibes anymore. It is now only a matter of relaxing my and rolling my eyes. Although some serious preceiving still has to be donewith teh help of the tools!

I think that part of the reason is that i have done much meditation, contemplation, reading & training to recoginize the vibes.....

There is a natural mystic flow in the air!

It no coincedence mang! I and I are I! I is Irie!

[waterdragon]

Originally posted by nabraxas:

as opposed to 'suspicious'

eg: if you have a valid reason to believe your phone is bugged ie:you sell drugs & the line has electronic background noises that never used to be there- then you're suspicious. if you have no valid reason outside ov your mind, then you're paranoid.

i'd be really astonished if half of this countries 'phones weren't recorded/bugged/intercepted. i'd be especially surprised if my electronic communications weren't looked at due to the sites i frequent and the strong anti-government sentiments that i spew forth occasionally. maybe i'm suspicious but i don't think i'm wrong. i think in this day and age if u want a really private conversation then it needs to be face to face without anything transmitting. call it what u will, but with the plethora of current laws it's nearly impossible not to break several per day.

[RonnySimulacrum]

“If I knew what a hallucination was I would know what reality was. I have examined the topic thoroughly, and i assert that it is impossible to have a hallucination; it goes against reason and common sense. Those who claim to have had them are probably lying (I have had a few myself)” Philip k. Dick (1966)

I interviewed a very paranoid and major conspiracy theory meditation teacher. Who clamed that the hallucinations he had whiles meditating were fare better to that of mushrooms or LSD from his experience. He seemed to really recent any form of substance altered states.

I also interviewed a schizophrenic poet how clamed that his schizophrenic Hallucinations where very different from his mushroom hallucinations.

One of my best friends is also a little paranoid/depressed sometimes and he seems to hallucinate during waking life for too day every couple of months. He gets all irritated and kind of just stops for the two days

[theobromos]

Hallucinations may be one of the symptoms of schizophrenia but you need other symptoms as well to be diagnosed. I don't whether any psychiatrists regard hallucinations alone as not indicating illness, but many of the Hearing Voices Network would support that view. It is believing them that is the problem.

[nabraxas]

interesting. have to agree w/brian-"Tripping is allot of fun if done correctly. There should be a minimum of mental stress involved" thing w/salvia was i did it on a whim in my hostel room in the dam. lsd or shrooms wouldn't have been a problem but the intensity of the hit combined w/the total foriegness of the setting threw me.

dragon- i'd say you were probably right to be suspicious ov phone line security, your points are reasonable- paranoia would be if your thoughts sounded extreeme & your belief in them was still strong. ie:"i know the phone lines are bugged because the police always drive past my house 5 minutes after i phone home."

ronnie- excellent P.K.D quote, it sums up the matter. hallucinations are different from visions.

ov course i'm aware that hallucinations aren't the only criteria for labeling anyone mentally unwell, but they are a major symptom. i'd forgotten about aural hallucinations, these again seem to be ov 2 types. the first is most common & is when we don't quite hear something & our brain fills in the noise- this is often expeerienced under MJ or LSD & can be part of a paranoid reaction, then there's the less common aural hallucination where you hear voices/birds/TV's talking to you. this has happened to me once on LSD & all 3 times i tried salvia. this i find thee most scary ov all- when all the birds in the forest start screaming crap at ya, ya have to question your sanity.

[Auxin]

"when all the birds in the forest start screaming crap at ya, ya have to question your sanity."

Good, I'm not too far gone. Birds dont talk to me yet, they just give me strange malevolent leers. The TV does talk to me though, and it lies. It says things like 'if your not with us, your against us', 'Saddam Hussein is a threat to the USA', 'the republican party will reduce government spending', 'attacking afghanistan is part of the war on terrorism', and many other blatant lies.

[waterdragon]

auxin, turn the bastard thing off. the only reason i watch tv lately is to ascertain the opposite of truth and then work back from there.

[woof woof woof]

The birds, trees and sometimes a turned off t.v, music (everything basically) can speak to me on an emotional level. It is of course very important that you interpid your emotions correctly. I think that this is the point where people can start losing their minds..... and that is misinterpeting their emotions.

Another thing regarding the recording/bugging/intercepting..... I readthat Austrailia is the country where this is done the most in the world!

lay low folks...... hehehhe

[nabraxas]

brian- i thought singapore had the most monitored populace.

just thought i'd throw in a few quotes

"shizophrenia is associated with excess activity of those parts of the brain that use dopamine"

"theraputic drugs work by blocking brains receptor sites for dopamine"

"amphetamine & methylphenidate are known to increase dopamine activity" & both "can produce psychotic states similar to schizophrenia."

"postmortem studies have found increased brain dopamine & an increased number of dopamine receptors in the limbic structures of deceased schizophrenics"

quotes from "abnormal psychology"- which then goes onto say that none ov the above really proves anything. schizophrenia is still a matter ov dispute. not just causes(some findings raise the possibility that in some people schizophrenia is due to viral infection), but whether there is 1, 2 or many types.

[This message has been edited by nabraxas (edited 21 November 2002).]

[planthelper]

if, a shizo gets parkinsons the

shizo will stop.

vice versa: anti shizo medication will cause

pakinsons symptons.

[occidentalis]

As far as I know Australia is not the most bugged country in the world, but it does have a higher rate of electronic communications interception than the US, which is pretty frightening.

[Gwydion]

Australia is the most bugged country in the WESTERN (read cow-boy dominated, gun-totin', beef-eatin') world. [whatever that means.]

[nabraxas]

interesting article in this weeks New Scientist, about the link between the sexual workings/chemistry ov the brain & drug addiction. it touches on some ov the points raised here.

"the more directly or profoundly a drug affects the dopamine system, the more craving & pleasure it produces"

the article also says that dopamine may not be the main factor in pleasure, as it seems to be controlling movement rather than pleasure in parkinsons patients. they then talk about a brain chemical called Oxytocin, which sounds interesting. it's a good read- it maybe on their website.