Customs took my cacti seeds!!!

[Jox]

I am about to explode

I have just received an empty pack containing only 5 Etlingera elatior (these were extras I didn't even ask for), all the cacti seeds are gone. I got another letter "Notice of Seizure" which states

Seizure details

a) Inspected at SGF by CLYDE

Came by post

c) Import, not alive

d) Country of export - Italy

e) Whats been seized- seeds

f) Species- Ariocarpus, Cintia, Aztekium.

g) Number of items- 8 plastic bags

h) Weight/volume- no comment

i) Appearance- no comment

j) Reason for possession- personal

k) Was it declared- no

i) AQIS involvement- Inspected & cleared...............WTF?????

Reason for seizure

The specimens have been seized as I reasonably suspect that they have been used (or involved) in the commission of an offence against part 13A on the act;

On the grounds that there was no valid permit.

The main reason I'm pissed is the seed I ordered are aloud to be imported & don't need a permit! (I have done it before,many times without any dramas)

The notice states that AQIS inspected & cleared these seeds.

The AQIS web page says I can import these seeds with out a permit (It last update was today 18/9/12 & stills say no permit needed)

I have rung the help line provided with my notice & explained all of this. There responce was not helpful at all & they will not address the problems," if you want your seeds back you have to fill out the letter".

I will fill out the paperwork & send it in but I'm furious that I have to do this just because some prick has assumed the need a permit, when clearly they don't!!!!!!!!

Any advise on the best way to deal with these cock smokers would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers

jox

[Evil Genius]

Hi Jox, are you sure this is about AQUIS? If i read the text right, it says AQUIS INVOLVEMENT - Inspected and Cleared. Doesnt that mean that AQUIS found them to be ok? Is it possible the Issue is because of Cites? Most if not all Ariocarpus seeds are placed in Appendix I what means they cant be imported from the EU without a phytocertificate paper. And so is Aztekium. What confuses me a bit is that i think Cintia is in Appendix II what means seed is ok without a permit. My best guess is that clyde is an orange utan who sometimes helps Clint Eastwood to pick up chicks and therefore wasnt fully concentrated on the job and confiscated the Cintia seeds with the rest. Or Cintia Knizei has been placed in Appendix I recently. Cant access the cites page right now as the domain is down but i´ll comment on that later.

[Evil Genius]

Have a look at this list:

http://de.wikipedia....9Cbereinkommens

Its german but the names pretty much speak for themselves. Dont think its up to date but it contains most of them. All of them need a permit when imported as seeds. Live plant imports should be totally out the question without cites certificate AND Phytocertificate.

And heres a bit info in english about Cites:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CITES

Edited September 18, 2012 by Evil Genius

[Jox]

A quick update, AQIS have no problem letting my seeds through, I don't need a permit, they have been inspected & cleared.

I now have to deal with are the Department of sustainability, environment, water, population & communities.

They have told me the reason they are being held is because there Mexican spp.

I was told to wright a short note stating what species they are "Latin names" & I should get them back.

She told me that all cacti seeds from Mexico will be held until there id is confirmed, the thing that confuses me is, the seeds were all ready labeled

& now there tell me when I wright a letter stating there names, they will post them out to me?

[Stillman]

good luck mate write as many emails and letters as you can, it can't hurt. Is there somewhere stating how many seeds warrant a permit? Or is it an undefined amount?

[Jox]

Your right EG it to do with Cites,

This is way to confusing, I made sure I did everything right with AQIS who states these seeds are aloud & now another department tells me there not allowed.

The lady I spoke to said "The people that work for them aren't cacti experts so if there unsure they will just keep them & then its up to the costumer

prove what they are.

If the company that sent me these seeds has not put the right paperwork in or been shipping them out illegally then maybe I will take it up with them!

Thanks EG.

[Evil Genius]

Ok its about cites. But as far as i know, this only applies for seed and plants that are sent directly FROM MEXICO. Of course they are still CITES I and you´ll probably lose the Arios and the Aztekia. But if they refer themselves to the part about mexican plants, i think they got it wrong. Mexican cacti are not allowed to be sent out the country. But i never heard that someone applied that rule to mexican cacti in general.

Also, tell em Cintia Knizei is from Bolivia and not from Mexico. It may sound similar to a customs intern, but it is NOT.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Evil Genius

[Jox]

The problem stillman is theirs two departments with two different sets of rules. One says you can & one says you can't. BUYERS BE WERE!

[Jox]

@ EG, that's what the lady said to me "if there from a company in Italy & not collected from wild Mexico they should be fine, its just that were cautious, send me the paper work & I'll see what I can do."

I must admit, this lady has been nice a & helpful.

I will sent of what is required & keep you up dated with any results.

[Evil Genius]

Dont think theres anything you can do about the company you got them from because its actually not really their fault. Of course they are not allowed to send CITES I plants without a phyto permit but it usually lies in the obligation of the receiver to check about all the import regulations. The phyto paper costs money and seed supliers usually charge the buyer if he is willing to pay for it. But in most cases, they will not tell you when you ordered seed that you are not allowed to receive. Besides, the monetary valueof smaller seed orders like yours is pretty small and there is probably no way you can legally force them to send you a refund. I know seed supliers who dont ship Cites I seed outside the EU without a permit but thats actually not the rule. So in most cases, they ship out but if something goes wrong, its the problem of the buyer. Sad but true. ;) But you can surely talk to them about it. Who knows, maybe they send you something else to make this a little bit better. But make sure its not cites I.

Did the plants have a label?

Edited September 18, 2012 by Evil Genius

[GoOnThen]

Not good Jox I hope you can get this sorted.

I am waiting on a parcel of 50 Ariocarpus seeds from the same place this was to be a trial run before placing a bigger order but still i have just under $40.00 on the line.

Please keep us informed on the outcome so I know how to handle any problems that might come my way.

Cheers

Got

[Evil Genius]

Well yeah AQUIS is fine with them because they are not a quarantine issue. But this does not mean they are not in conflict with other plant protection regulations like CITES. I heard about cases when AQUIS didnt have problems with herbal material that could be considered as a drug under the drug law and sent it out because they only checked about the quarantine status. But i guess it usually is the case that they inform Custums who will rip you a new asshole because of it then.

But the fact that AQUIS told you they are fine doesnt mean anything in regard to other regulations. It only means AQUIS is ok with them.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Evil Genius

[Jox]

They were all labeled & i just realized other things are missing, it states 8 bags were contained, I ordered 9 bags, it also states Ariocarpus, Aztekium & cintia seeds were contained, in that order there was suppose to be astropythum caput medusa, Leuchtenbergia principis seeds as well, nothing has been mentioned about these?

Going crazy now, head to the fridge for a beer!

[Evil Genius]

No need to panic. Stuff like this happens and is not a big deal if you dont do this on a regular basis. Worst case scenario is that the seed is lost and you´ll have to pay a fine. But i would avoid doing that on a regular basis as i heard horrorstories about very expensive fines for people who do this rather oftenly.

Caput Medusae is CITES I too. Leuchtenbergia was placed back to Cites II so seed should be fine.

.

[planthelper]

the trouble is, similar like the police, those authoreties can interpretate there findings in what ever way it pleases them.

how much money would you loose, if you ditch, the seeds?

are they originaly from mexico?

make a equation, between your loss and the efforts you would have to go thru, attemting, to recover those seeds.

maybe even if you fight this with hours of work, you will be no better off.

anyway, good luck, and try to stay calm, we all hate those people, but upset and stress, it aint worth.

edit: i could not see the two post's above, when i replied, but even more so, just reward youreselfe, and take a break from it.

Edited September 18, 2012 by planthelper

[Jox]

@ EG, looking at that link you put up thanks, from what i could work out most of the Cites l plants & seeds are from wild collection once they have been breed in captivity the seeds can fall into Cites ll, something along those lines.

Anyway I have just got of the phone again with the same lady, I explained that the seeds produced in Italy & not from mexico & she has told me if the company in Italy will send me a receipt showing that I purchased it all from them, then I can't get my seeds back. Even though the seeds were labeled & there was a letter with a bold letterhead stating the company's name, They want any itemized receipt. What ever the outcome there will be no fines

@GoOnThen, I hope all goes well, if it makes you fill any better I have received 5 packages from this company before this with out any drama.

@planthelper, thanks I won't let things like this get me down or stress me, just gives me the shits me, I'll be fine after mumbling a few swear words under my breath for the next half hour.

Thanks for all the input, I'll keep you posted with the outcome.

Cheers

jox

[Evil Genius]

@ EG, looking at that link you put up thanks, from what i could work out most of the Cites l plants & seeds are from wild collection once they have been breed in captivity the seeds can fall into Cites ll, something along those lines.

Exactly. Thats what the phyto certificate is for. ;) It is to prove that the seed was collected from plants that are not habitat plants in the wild.

[M S Smith]

My best guess is that clyde is an orange utan who sometimes helps Clint Eastwood to pick up chicks

 

Ha ha ha ha ha!

[Jox]

Man he's so cute, he can keep them

[woof woof woof]

ohhh man,... why did Clints mug have to be shown here,... is going to take me a while to forgive the bastard for his republican party endorsment

[naja naja]

it kinda bugs me though, when u pay like $30 extra for a phytosanitary certificate and then the package doesn't even get looked at. Feels like u pay the xtra cash for nothing.

[Mr. Bowser]

Oh Clint... first the utan thing, then Republican endorsement and talking to a chair... ur losin it man! ehem

Good luck with the seeds import situation. Its nice that someone is taking the time to at least hear you out. Hopefully an itemized receipt from the vendor will help you get the rest of the missing seeds back as well!

[Torsten]

don't get your hopes up. Some of the species you imported are CITES controlled and you would need to furnish proof of them being sourced from a permit holder. simply getting them from a non-mexican country is not enough as they could have gone through a transit country. Permits have to be issued in the source country and any transit country.

My last CITES problem took nearly a year to resolve - and that was for a non-CITES controlled species.

[Torsten]

it kinda bugs me though, when u pay like $30 extra for a phytosanitary certificate and then the package doesn't even get looked at. Feels like u pay the xtra cash for nothing.

 

why do you get phytos? they are not accepted by AQIS in most cases. For CITES you need a CITES certificate.

[Jox]

Just a quick update,

The seed company reckons this is the first time in 10 years of sending to Australia this has happened, anyway there sending me itemized receipts & a declaration stating there nurseries are Cites registered, along with there registration license numbers.

The lady I have been dealing with has told me if she gets this information she will send me my seeds.

The one thing to be aware of is as soon as they saw 1 bag of seed that may have be classed as Cites l, they decided to keep it all, including cacti seed which is not on the Cites list eg.. Ariocarpus retusus cv Purple Tokuy which was cultivated in Japan.

I'll keep you informed with any updates.

Cheers

jox