Acacia ID **image heavy**

[BorgFace]

The following images are from what I perceived to be two separate species of acacia that are growing near my house. I was looking for a positive ID and a heads-up if they are of the tryptamine-carrying kind

Unknown Acacia 1;

[;IMG]http://img58.exs.cx/img58/8834/ac1016cn.jpg[/img]

[;IMG]http://img61.exs.cx/img61/703/ac1025rt.jpg[/img]

[;IMG]http://img90.exs.cx/img90/6701/ac1035nq.jpg[/img]

[;IMG]http://img67.exs.cx/img67/1478/ac1046sk.jpg[/img]

[;IMG]http://img61.exs.cx/img61/447/ac1054we.jpg[/img]

[;IMG]http://img99.exs.cx/img99/3467/ac106jpg5pt.jpg[/img]

[ 23. January 2005, 17:15: Message edited by: BorgFace ]

[BorgFace]

Unknown Acacia 2;

[;IMG]http://img146.exs.cx/img146/5378/ac2012vi.jpg[/img]

[;IMG]http://img99.exs.cx/img99/8822/ac2027uh.jpg[/img]

[;IMG]http://img92.exs.cx/img92/6861/ac2031ce.jpg[/img]

[;IMG]http://img74.exs.cx/img74/9554/ac2046mi.jpg[/img]

[;IMG]http://img97.exs.cx/img97/8008/ac2051gw.jpg[/img]

[;IMG]http://img156.exs.cx/img156/2240/ac2065dz.jpg[/img]

[;IMG]http://img134.exs.cx/img134/7240/ac2075xq.jpg[/img]

[ 23. January 2005, 17:16: Message edited by: BorgFace ]

[BorgFace]

And finally, a side by side comparison of the phylloides.

[;IMG]http://img139.exs.cx/img139/3029/ac12comp2xf.jpg[/img]

[ 23. January 2005, 17:19: Message edited by: BorgFace ]

[Rev]

nice but try and get it in flower and then the seedods to id it better

or take it the herbarium at mt coot-tha

BTW there is only one way to definitively find out if a tree has tryptamines

even within a reported species

[Torsten]

Borgface you are getting close....

it would be good to see this in a few weeks when in full flower. From the flowerbuds it looks like they will become flower spikes which puts it in the section Juliflorae and narrows the filed down dramatically.

The leaves look like they are anastomosing, which also points to the right group.

But as rev said, there is only one way to confirm. A shortcut is to take a dried leaf and light it. Blow it out and let it glow a little. The smoke of dmt containing acacias smells of skatol and other indolic compounds.

[folias]

Borgface,

The first species does not contain any alkaloids as I have tested it a few times... I can't recall the name of it now.

The second one, with the large phyllodes I did discover small amounts of alkaloids (i.e. 0.05%...possibly DMT...) but did not strike me as a tree worth considering further.

Anyone else, you are going to be VERY lucky to find a new species containing tryptamines....i have been researching for years and have only found one new one, and I'm pretty sure other people have extracted from it before.

I proposed the idea of a database a few years back...but there was nobody else really doing any testing, so it may be something we require as a community now...

Julian.

[Torsten]

Originally posted by folias:

I proposed the idea of a database a few years back...but there was nobody else really doing any testing, so it may be something we require as a community now...

There are lots of people working on acacias and the main problem is they all have one reason or another to keep their results secret. There are plenty of tryptamine acacias being found, but try and get anyone to share that information!?!

Some are doing theses on the topic, which I guess is fair enough and realy only a matter of a couple of years delay before the info will become publically available. Others have commercial reasons. Some even do both.

Others simply don't like to share as they feel that knowledge is power.

The whole acacia topic has perfectly crystallised all the reasons why this community is developing at a snail's pace.

[BorgFace]

Thanks for the responses everyone.

I'm considering trying extracts of both to verify Julian's results, and if what he says is true, that acacia2 contains tryptamines, then I will most definitely get it ID'd at the gardens for future reference.

I personally like the idea of a centralised database. I have seen a number of other acacia's in the area that are otherwise very similar in appearance to the others except in inflorescence. It raises the question if perhaps they too contain alkaloids, and in practical quantities.

[folias]

Torsten,

Another thing is I think some people who may have stumbled across a species containing tryptamines don't feel comfortable or even qualified to report that information or feel they have the responsibility to deal with what that entails... and many of these people don't know who or where to tell about this and it may have been years and years ago... there is the idea of an official reporting is actually accurate...which is bullshit...a supposedly "scientific" one off plant sample is not at all representative of the alkaloid profile of the species in all its strains, environment... an underground researcher can explore the different variables and variations of a plant and UNDERSTAND THEM! And that can represent an basis of understanding of a complex and fluid being...

With the tree species I have found, I'm not comfortable telling people what it is and so on, until I have understood it enough that I feel comfortable in communicating to others about this tree. And I have only extracted from it once!

I think putting the word out on a tree, in some sense brings a certain sense of responsibility... there are good reasons to be wary...

If I knew of other researchers who would be able to help in this case, I would put the info out...as it is, there are almost no people who are prepared to go slightly aboveground at this point... maybe there are commercial interests! Don't know!

And YET, there are people who want to feel like they are the special and exclusive people... personally, I am often incredulous that people actually people take their ego political silly blah whatever seriously at all! I think it seems important to them...Maybe it fills in some space for them....maybe it makes them feel bigger to bitch and try and belittle others... same old, same old in this country!

And then there is the general sense, that people are scared of bringing attention to themselves, because saying that you have discovered a tree implies you are very much breaking the law by extracting a scheduled 1 substance. In light of recent developments, I suppose more people may just keep their head in the ground... and I think the sense is, if you tell the general populice, you are also telling 'the man'... and from the 'mans' perspective then you would be seen to be encouraging people in effectively breaking the law...there are new laws on the boards which are quite extreme regarding this (which I can't find a link to right now...does someone else know the document I am talking of?)

And you know, for whose and what benefit is this information for really at this point?

I think many of us understand that there are a lot of mostly young punks out there who are doing this for their ego (ever checked out DMT world recently?) they see it as a power and it just isn't like that. They want to make something of it and it just isn't like that.

I don't think people trust one another yet... and everyone thinks everyone else is too unstable or (insert whatever!)

Overall, people are not clear on many things yet... there is a lot of unsurity... very little communication which would allow consensus or any kind of unitedness.

Something has got to give with a lot of people I reckon...

Julian.

[Torsten]

I agree with all that....

except, I doubt that there are many who fail to share their info on the basis of feeling some sort of responsibility. Some might state this to be the case, but only too often it turns out commercial interests were the undercurrent all along. I am sure you are right in some cases, and probably moreso in some of the community you hang out in, but it is pretty rare in the rest of the world. It always does serve as a useful excuse/deflector though. I remember it being used a few years ago by some of the people who later turned out to be quite commercial about it. It preys on naivety and there is plenty of that around.

[BorgFace]

I'm not quite sure if I'm following this correctly, but are you saying that in a number of instances an acacia find has been kept secret because the motivation is monetarily based?

Julian, I agree with what you said about DMT-punks. Of the handful of times I have encountered them, more often than not I have found myself privy to some very narcissistic and greedy behaviour. This tends to happen across the board with psychoactives, but I mean hell at one doof I saw a guy take FIVE pills! Personally I would like to think that there is some intrinsic value in DMT that would negate these detrimental qualities, but I've found that the motivation behind using DMT varies so greatly from person to person that this is not true. DMT is receptive to a persons advancement of consciousness, so naturally if all they want is a pretty light-show then that is all they will get. Along the way I think that an otherwise sacred entheogen has been trivialised by the same generation that trivialised MDMA, which in turn closed it off from the general/medical communities.

[Torsten]

Originally posted by BorgFace:

I'm not quite sure if I'm following this correctly, but are you saying that in a number of instances an acacia find has been kept secret because the motivation is monetarily based?

Yes. sometimes solely for that reason sometimes in combination with other reasons.

[folias]

Borgface,

I think with the DMT punks... maybe it is they are the ones who need it most! Being most egotistical and often closed to these realities, in their elitist 'sorted outedness'

It does often seems they are attracted to this 'medicine' in order to become less egotistical and arrogant, and get humble in the face of the real deal... co-ordinate what they THINK they are, with what is really out there... does it work for all of them?.... not all perhaps, but I know a few of these types who have been brought to their knees...and seem to have sorted out some stuff through using DMT.

Julian.

[Rev]

DMT isnt MDMA

In many cases people arent ready for it

especially if they arent forewarned of its intensity

And not all acacias have DMT as their main alkaloid. Imagine an amateur inhaling a good 80-100mg of 'DMT' only to realise all too late its not DMT but mostly 5 meO with beta carbolines

and theyre into a harrowing 1 hour experince

(this is a real occurrence told to me by a person who after learning of tryptamines in acacias went off and harvested a heap of bark of a previously untested chemotype with help from web DMT extraction teks. This person has no training in chem or much knowledge of historical DMT use. their history with drugs you could say is mostly with party drugs and harder but theye were obviously motivated enough to see what could be done with acacias)

and yet i hear the remainder was sold off as DMT anyway. So there are serious and demonstrated problems with knowledge in the wrong hands

If certain elements got a wind of there being freaky drugs out there in the hills the populations wouldnt last long

Im surprised theyve lasted this long already

maybe cos you need the eye to distinguish the species or because species published so far have been wholly or partly unreliable

and add to that youd have mixed unknown chemical cocktails getting about with any old mix of DMT, 5 MeO , minor analogues and a host of beta carbs involved all with an unknown pharmacology and when something goes wrong (which it undoubtedly will) DMT will get he blame - or worse - acacias

If you know a new species for goodness sake please dont tell everyone especially if there arent many of them

[ 02. January 2005, 23:28: Message edited by: reville ]

[BorgFace]

reville, you seem to have misunderstood me. I know that DMT is not MDMA, and that you don't get DMT in pills (I know that is what it sounded like ).

What I meant is that these 'punks' are the ones that do pills to excess, along with anything else they do, and then the morning after sit around toking DMT and meth.

That shit just doesn't fly in my books. However, I'm sure that for whatever reason they are doing it, they are justified in their own minds. And far be it from me to tell to do otherwise, but I just think that a more serious ritualistic approach to smoking DMT is needed for these people.

Even though I have not experienced an ayahuasca ritual or healing, from what I have gathered the motivations, and hence qualitative difference, between it and smoked DMT are diametrically opposed. I don't know if this is because of set/setting, or some primeval natural magic, but the experiences are seemingly more profound in nature.

Julian, I know exactly what you mean! Someone who looks like me and yet is not me uses DMT primarily as a tool for personal growth and change and has found that is has been most helpful in completely obliterating his image problems! He hardly ever uses it for recreational purposes, and when he does he is usually granted an experience according to his mindset.

[Rev]

Borg

i got what you meant but phrased incorrectly myself

what i really meant was that most people can take MDMA for fun and have a nice time, maybe wth some insight, but i think MDMA can lose its magic

DMT however is neer going to be a 'recreational' drug in the broader population. Its too confronting and well wierd..

As for your wariness to these punks you speak of

Ive met a few and can honestly say theres just as many dickheads amongst them as amongst the more 'spiritual' or ritually oriented users.

even perhaps fewer.

those who overdo it are more likley to get their arse kicked when they stray too far over the edge and learn valuable lessons about ego death and total loss of control whereas the more moderate limited and structural appraoch will keep you within 'safe' confines and allow you to compound illusions without serious challenge. These house shamans can teter about the edges with drumming and ritual but unless you push the envelope a bit its not going to progress to rebirth. Losing everything whether by drugs or starvation, or endured pain or whatever technique it is

Its important to know that whether it be snuff or ayahuasca or any other ritual hallucinogen used in indigenous society and now appropraited by us, that it was used in many ways an dthet the definition between ritual and ludible usage is a dinstinction not always clearly drawn in its original usage

In some societies ayahuasca is taken by only the shaman, in others by patient and shaman. In some it was used only on occassions and in others whenever deemed necessary. In many only men could consume the vine

In some tribes all male memebers freely use snuffs any time or place while in others its has more strictly defined usage

For primitive societies the disticntion bewteen a festivity of 'recreation' and a religious and sacred event is not clear. Most celebrations are religious and likewise most religious occassion involve a party!

Popping pills and doofing all night is not in my opinion a trivialisation of MDMA but rather a reclamation of a festival of shared experience

an appropriate backlash to organised religion which in effect trivialised spirituality by wrapping it in a book and enclosing it to solemn sunday morning outlets devoid of primal ecstacy

There are many texts out there on primtive and modern social integration of hese things. I recomned you look into it as the kneejerk reaction to draw a line is common and superficillay evident but below the surface of it youll find for many there is hidden maning and association that maybe they dont even fully realise but is evident when a full study of the group dynamics is undertaken

[ 06. January 2005, 23:38: Message edited by: reville ]

[BorgFace]

Reville, I agree with you completely.

Perhaps I was too quick to pidgeonhole them, I'm sure there are alot of valid reasons why they're doing something and not just for recreation.

However yes, it is usually the behaviour of a select few that tarnish the reputation of the rest.

BF.