know thyself=bogus shit

[Thelema]

OK the mantra for western philosophy is "know thyself"

My mother looked at me when I was 24 and slammed the door in my face after an ingenuine apology, and she said beforehand "you don't even know yourself".

I have been thinking so much about these things, and have concluded that the the whole idea is bogus, highly misleading, and culturally dangerous.

1) If you did know yourself, who is it that is doing the knowing? Yourself? Then do you know the self that knows yourself? ad infinitum...

2)Where is space for the "not-self" within the ultimate spiritual aim of "knowing self"? Is this not an adage for encouraging people to be self-circumspect? encouraging them to weave a fabric around a locus that allows no other view?

3)most dangerous of all, i think "know thyself" reckons to one that one becomes autonomous as a result and free-willed. OH! I was to reply to a post CS did recently, yea, youre in charge of your own life etc.....that might be true, BUT what about the skills that your are equipped with that help you to be in charge? What about the ideals you raise against the conditions of your reality? These also are historical!

i have more to write but would prefer the rest to be in conversational mode if anyone likes.

oh

4) I have learnt that "forgetting oneself" has the most spiritual wisdom, in terms of the Tao. Opening yourself up to the not-self is what psychaedelia is all about. Some might write this as "love" or "letting yourself go".

For me such medicines have finally pierced (long ago) a hard-held psyche that was in search of itself.

And the ultimate answer? The self is grounded in that which is not the self. It may seem surprising to some, and obvious to others, but for me the whole journey has been ego-destroying and eye-opening, i would not alter it for the world, yet I wish the world were different!LOL

[devance]

Thats very interesting.

A theory which I hold with is there is the reptile brain stem, the midbrain emothional and the cerebral cortex which is the most advanced on the planet.

Its hard to have family members accept ones needs if even one"s family are holding on to what eventually is a proving to be a very stressfull but naturaly time. They just act that way as long as possibly.

Eistein had his personel problems and relief {the three stroogess, slap stick comidy].

[nabraxas]

& then you can loose yourself in the music, or "live in the moment"

i think as well, that there exists a certain amount ov sureity in the permanence ov that found self.

the idea that 'comming ov age' is about 'finding oneself' (lion king).

a forgetting ---through mediated self assurance that that self can be changed completely in an instant & that death awaits--more than at any other time we've done our best to put death away from ourselves, but subconsciously....

[Legba]

know thyself.... 2 words outa the bible and yet such confusion and arguements could result.

to begin to understand this simple phrase you have to know that humans aint wat they use to be...wot theyre supposed to be. so far away from it.

as we are, there is no self as such, just a bunch o' wannabes, sorta. different 'i's switching the drivers seat between them.

so, to know thyself today is a hard task that may well be impossible for some, if not most of us. howeva, it is a good place to start if ya wanna develop ur soul. lota hard work thou.

ooo, ooo,, the motor racings on. gotsta go.

[reptyle]

knowing thyself would be the same as understanding the nature of the self that does exist, which it does, not ultimately but certainly it is existing. knowing the extent and limitations of the imposed self will lead to, eventually, seeking the self outside of the self, and hence perciveing ultimate reality.

there is nothin wrong with the statement "know thyself", only problem is with interpretation based on current view of self.

on a side note, it seems far more "enlightening" to look for truth in proposed idea's and hence empathising( is that a word) with the person making the statement than it does to try and disprove or discredit it .

[mr toodly]

Thelema,

Perhaps you have something to learn from Croesus the Lydian.

Often the things uttered at Delphi were not what they seemed.

[mr toodly]

I'll expound when I don't have to pay for my internet time.

[Benzedrine]

The way I look at it is that when you were born nature gave you your physical qualities. As someone grows up the social attributes of the society they live in is given to them. I think knowing one's self is to know the personality that these social features were grafted onto. To know oneself is to know why you are angry or happy and not having to invent the excuse afterwards. To most people the reasons they give for their actions are speculative, the mind comes up with a justification after the event has occured. In my opinion someone needs to be able to cast a net into the whirling sea that is the mind and understand what they find.

I'm pretty much at the other end of the spectrum, I search for self understanding and awareness. I don't feel that you can reach for an enlightment without some firm footing inside of you. Its like reaching out in quicksand, you only sink further in.

[reptyle]

but knowing that your body is able to manouvre itself into a horizontal position will allow you to explore the entire sandpit, and eventually escape if u want to. if u stand still in quicksand long enough you will die of hunger or thirst, or u will fall asleep and sink, regardless of how much u dont reach out.

[Benzedrine]

I like your use of the analogy but...

how do you propose to forget yourself without first knowing yourself?

[reptyle]

"knowing thyself would be the same as understanding the nature of the self that does exist, which it does, not ultimately but certainly it is existing. knowing the extent and limitations of the IMPOSED self will lead to, eventually, seeking the self outside of the self, and hence perciveing ultimate reality." - ME

i didnt say anything about forgetting youself.

[Rev]

i rekon knowing thyself is just a starting point towards conscious livin

when you can laugh at yourself its a start

because you are seeing your behavioural limitatons

People close to you can know you in a way you may overlook and they often are the ones who bear your signature imperfections

seeing your own conditioned behavioural responses to others and accepting that that is you

and the decoding if you like r dislike that and what you intend to do about it

maybe you get picky in the mornings, or shy in a crowd, or always have to have the last say in an argument, or whatever

i think thats what knowing yourself is

[reptyle]

that is knowing the qualities of the self you choose to apply. but knowing the nature of the self, how it exists and why, is a different thing in my opinion.

the reasons for why people act the way they do can be traced back to the fundamental misunderstanding of the true nature of self.

and i would suggest that ONLY by first understanding the true nature of self can the characteristic qualities of the applied/imposed self be properly remedied.

[Rev]

LOl

seems we are lighting opposite ends of the same candle

[-YT-]

Considering others thoughts on Knowing thyself is it vain selfimportant and selfish to focus on knowing thyself and ones true will and purpose/path, is it selfish to avoid unessesary problems and situations while only focusing on yourself/ self improvement? If we dont know who We are, then what have we got and where will we go... wouldnt that make us the same as most mainstream people and their beliefs?

[Rune]

I think knowing yourself is being aware of (that is, sensitive to) everything you are saying or doing. and I think that's very important.

[M S Smith]

Anyone can feel free to interprete this wonderful and profound saying that is incribed at the temple of Apollo at Delphi any way they want, but unless they understand the philosophy of the Greeks who held it up as a worthy axiom they can't effectively criticize it as they wouldn't know the statements intent and meaning.

In greek philosophy the universe and creation were not malevolent. Through creation the laws of the Creator were expressed. Since we are part of creation then in us these same laws were also expressed. And so in knowing thyself you can come to know creation. "Know thyself," is closely tied to "as above, so below," reputedly from Hermes Trismegistus. In this view those laws which are above (in the heavens) are also below (in the world). Knowing thyself has simply to do with the belief that if you know yourself and its "laws," then you can know the laws and the nature of the heavens. By going "into" the self you can learn of the universe, and this I find true. It has nothing to do with the narcissistic self of "ego."

"Know thyself."

~Michael~

[Rune]

I think we need to know what this discussion is about - 'knowing thyself' or 'knowing yourself'? because the example horatio used was his mother telling him 'you don't even know yourself'.

I think every soul has a personality. maybe it's shaped by the body, living circumstances etc. but there is a true person that you are. you probably knew this person best when you were a kid. and the further we get away from this true self by making 'improvements' to who we are: "hey man, I look so cool when I stand like this", the more lost we are.

knowing thyself is, as michael pointed out, a completely different thing.

[Legba]

knowing yourself cant exclude the bad stuff. indeed, when u see th bad stuff, then u realise you dont know yourself. coz no one wants to 'bad'.

[M S Smith]

but there is a true person that you are. you probably knew this person best when you were a kid. and the further we get away from this true self by making 'improvements' to who we are: "hey man, I look so cool when I stand like this", the more lost we are.

Rune, interesting words, but let's take them a bit further, and maybe at the same time clarify the Christian saying regarding being unable to enter the Kingdom of Heaven unless one becomes like a little child.

Certainly when a child ones nature comes naturally and is without sin (though not of error), and as one grows it become unnatural as for us to be able to design ourselves in the image we wish to create in the eyes of both ourselves and others, and so we do get away from the "true self," us in our natural state. But we do not need always stay lost as we can and do have the ability to both transcend our original natural state, and the state of which we willed to be.

When we get to the point of realizing that there is a greater natural state than both that which we were as children, and that created state which we form for effect, we can develope into one in which we allow the "higher nature" to reign dominant, and it is there where we are "born again" and become as a little child, but in a higher state. It is here at this higher level that we truly come to know ourselves, and this will then bring us to the point of realization of my first point regarding both "know thyself," and "as above, so below." It is here that innocence is regained and we find that the laws of heaven that rule the universe also rule the self.

As a true child of nature we were but as innocent as the animals. Latter in life we have our "fall" from the innocence of being an animal. And then, hopefully, we transcend both to become a newborn child of the universe. Born again, but certainly not born again through the acceptance of theological doctrine such as Jesus (the historically incarnate divinity in the first century) is my Savior, but through the recognition that the universe has its own laws that transcend animal nature and the nature of the self.

~Michael~

[Rune]

michael, I don't know if I believe we 'fall' in this lifetime necessarily. I just heard something recently on the radio about serial killers and the majority of them torturing bugs and little animals when they were kids. I think a child like that is not born into the world innocent, but innocence was lost quite some time ago.

to not have that 'human' understanding that something like that is wrong - because it would make you feel terrible to cause suffering on another individual - is to not know 'humanness'.

[M S Smith]

The "fall" is metaphorical, and not at all to be either taken literally or according to modern Christian religious understanding. It is but a way to explain our failures and inability to live according to the ideas we hold for ourselves and mankind. Because we can not meet the exemplar manner of living we think we should we explain it as a fall because the recognition of how we should be better leads us to think about the heights which we should be at. The fall is truly representative of the ancient belief that we are "stars" fallen from heaven and into incarnation, the world in which when spirit is mixed with matter the being in this state is placed in conflict, a conflict that must be overcome by the second birth and the entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven, another term that is a metaphor and not to be taken literally.

We all have killed bugs, or worse, but we are not serial killers and understood the error of our ways and corrected it. Serial killers let the error blossom into sinfulness, and their failures are not indicative of humanity as a whole and probably shouldn't be used as an example for us "normal" folk. Serial killers are not human, and the discussion from my view is not applicable to them at all.

~Michael~

[-YT-]

Many thanks for your Replys Rune and Michael :D Gives me alot to think about. On christianity and the fall etc obviously being a metaphorical story/parable but it seems so much is taken as fact or truth and sadly the ego is envolved in most religion/spirituallity these days, confusing at the least. the thing i love about Knowing thyself is it is a completey individual journey for each to be taken if they choose.

"Anyone can feel free to interprete this wonderful and profound saying that is incribed at the temple of Apollo at Delphi any way they want, but unless they understand the philosophy of the Greeks who held it up as a worthy axiom they can't effectively criticize it as they wouldn't know the statements intent and meaning.

In greek philosophy the universe and creation were not malevolent. Through creation the laws of the Creator were expressed. Since we are part of creation then in us these same laws were also expressed. And so in knowing thyself you can come to know creation. "Know thyself," is closely tied to "as above, so below," reputedly from Hermes Trismegistus. In this view those laws which are above (in the heavens) are also below (in the world). Knowing thyself has simply to do with the belief that if you know yourself and its "laws," then you can know the laws and the nature of the heavens. By going "into" the self you can learn of the universe, and this I find true. It has nothing to do with the narcissistic self of "ego."

"Know thyself."

Thanks for putting this into your reply Michael, i felt maybe i had the wrong perception. Would reaching the state beyond the ego into the "self" be somewhat like "enlightenment" or is this a totally different again. Also would the info and things learnt about the laws and universe be hard to assimilate into everyday living throught ones other part of themself the ego?

[Thelema]

OK my basic point was, that knowing thyself is impossible, since by extricating oneself from subjecthood and appropriating oneself as an object of the understanding thereby creates:

a subject apprehending the object of the understanding (the former total self). yet this understanding does not encompass the new meta-subject understanding the object "self".

Then understanding oneself leads to a contradictory state (ie. if you understand yourself then you are doing it from a point of view that is not encompassed within your understanding.)

in fact the dictum leads one into an infinite regression, or a circular ourouborotic analysis.

at the worst it leads into a schizoid fantasy, whereby the new point of view apprehending the totality of self as an object is divorced from 'total self'.

this was my basic point, it seems that no-one has addressed this issue.

[gusto]

Maybe there's little relevance to this discussion of the human psyche, but didn't Kurt Godel develop a logical proof that a system can't be both complete and internally consistent?

Anyway, to the original comment from your mother on not knowing yourself. Seems to me like it was just a stament about a person having insight into their own motivations, strengths, weaknesses, etc. Whether or not this is possible in the strictest mathematical or logical sense, most would agree that some people do have a better understanding of their own internal processes than others.