Fluoride

[Slybacon]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44875168/ns/us_news-life/#.TpYZl3InJuY

"Florida county to stop adding fluoride to water "

I would like to open a debate about the benifits and health risks of fluoride. Now before we all get into the, not another conspiracy topic discussion, I think we are mature enough to discuss this logically. What do people think about their water having additives. I for one am against it, only because I grew up on Rain water and my teeth are fine an dandy, but I would really like to hear some input from the members of this site. We have a wide range of contributors here, and some of these fringe debates can get quite interesting. Let it begin..........

[Roopey]

I think if we are going to add stuff to the water it should be nutrients. You know, things that actually improve health, not Sodium Flouride, aka rat poison, one of the deadliest chemicals known.

[Slybacon]

^^^ I don't think we should "add" anything. I think we should try and make it as pure as possible without removing the trace elements etc. Make sure it is energised and healthy source. I know this is a huuuuge challenge as there will always be a possibility of containiments. Maybe we can merge this thread with some ideas about purification methods for the end user and home built devices.

[Alice]

Well since you asked, I'm all for fluridated water, as I am for iodised salt, vitamin D'd margarine, folic acid in flour, niacin in bread, child immunisation etc.

While I agree it would be "nice" to have the choice, on the whole probably 95+% of the population pay little attention to the importance of these fortified items, such that if all fortification was removed, health (including dental) problems would climb significantly. Most people just don't look after themselves properly on their own. Or they don't have any access, or even interest, in educating themselves on the importance of, or how to combat, these significant health issues.

I like not having to worry too much about tooth decay, neural tube defects etc.

And the whole "Fluoride is a poison" thing is irrelevant in my opinion. Everything is a poison in large enough amounts. I personally don't feel that the minute quantities in drinking water are enough to cause me harm, but are enough to have a benefit, so I just don't worry about the whole fluoride conspiracy. Easy. I realise there are lots of people out there that have concerns, and I'm fine with that. People worry about all sorts of things. But for me it's not an issue.

Edited October 13, 2011 by Alice

[Roopey]

Ignorance is bliss. Even if it is by choice (and yes choosing to not pay attention to something, is choosing to live in ignorance of that thing.)

[bℓσωηG]

iodised salt

next to impossible to find iodized table salt without ingredient ''554'' (aluminum silicate ) mmm...aluminum so nutritious

[CβL]

In correct and safe amounts - fluoride is not going to damage your health (it is another discussion whether it has been done safely though, something I would not agree with perhaps).

And to be more accurate, our ancestors drank more often from rivers, lakes and springs than from collecting rainwater. Those 3 sources contained (in some cases) far more mineral salts than we have in our municipal water today, and in many cases just as much. So to say that pure water containing nothing is somehow more natural than water containing mineral salts - is not quite accurate.

Secondly, I don't know where people have gotten the strange idea that ignorance is bliss. I have seen enough young women crying about mundane things (like their nails, or eyebrows) to know that they are not indeed in a blissful state despite their overabundance of ignorance.

[bℓσωηG]

Fluorides have been linked to a variety of severe chronic, even acute health issues.

Fluoride is a soluble salt, not a heavy metal. There are two basic types of fluoride. Calcium fluoride appears naturally in underground water sources and even seawater.

Enough of it can cause skeletal or dental fluorosis, which weakens bone and dental matter. But it is not nearly as toxic, nor does it negatively affect so many other health issues as sodium fluoride, which is added to many water supplies.

Sodium Fluoride is a synthetic waste product of the nuclear, aluminum, and phosphate fertilizer industries. This fluoride has an amazing capacity to combine and increase the potency of other toxic materials. The sodium fluoride obtained from industrial waste and added to water supplies is also already contaminated with lead, aluminum, and cadmium.

It damages the liver and kidneys, weakens the immune system, possibly leading to cancer, creates symptoms that mimic fibromyalgia, and performs as a Trojan Horse to carry aluminum across the blood brain barrier. The latter is recognized as a source of the notorious "dumbing down" with lower IQ's and Alzheimer's effects of fluoride.

Another not commonly known organ victim of fluorosis is the pineal gland, located in the middle of the brain. The pineal gland can become calcified from fluorides, inhibiting it's function as a melatonin producer. Melatonin is needed for sound, deep sleep, and the lack of it also contributes to thyroid problems that affect the entire endocrine system. The pineal gland is also considered the physical link to the upper chakras or third eye for spiritual and intuitive openings.

Avoiding Fluoride Contamination

Purifying water by reverse osmosis or distillation in fluoridated water is a good start to slowing down your fluoride contamination.

Avoiding sprayed, commercially grown foods while consuming organic or locally grown foods is another big step. Watch out for processed foods such as instant tea, grape juice products, and soy milk for babies. They all contain high concentrations of sodium fluoride. So do many pharmaceutical "medicines". By minimizing your sodium fluoride intake, your body can begin eliminating the fluorides in your system slowly.

Iodine supplementation has been clinically demonstrated to increase the urine irrigation of sodium fluoride from the body as calcium fluoride. The calcium is robbed from your body, so make sure you are taking effective calcium and magnesium supplements. Lecithin is recommended as an adjunct to using iodine for excreting fluorides.

Iodine is another nutrient lacking in most diets and causing hypothyroid symptoms of lethargy or metabolic imbalances. Eating lots of seafood for iodine has it's constantly rising mercury hazards. Seaweed foods and iodine supplements that combine iodine and potassium iodide are highly recommended over sea food by most.

Tamarind, originally indigenous to Africa but migrated into India and southeast Asia, has been used medicinally in Ayurvedic Medicine. The pulp, bark, and leaves from the tree can be converted to teas and strong tinctures, which have also shown the ability to eliminate fluorides through the urine.

[McTeeth]

I too hate the 'sodium flouride is a poison' argument. Personally I feel the opposite, I don't want any water contaminating my sodium flouride! Have you heard that stuff can cause hyponatremia?

Paracelsus - "Poison is in everything, and no thing is without poison. The dosage makes it either a poison or a remedy."

^^^ Remember that.

[Slybacon]

Seriosly tho, can't they just offer fluoridde in a product, and you can CHOOSE to have it....

I mean even if it is Benificial to teeth do we really need to have it in our water supply. Free choice is great.... Offer it for free along with needles and comdoms....

[bℓσωηG]

..plus its teeth protecting properties are limited to application to the actual tooth , not by ingestion and absorption throughout the body .( that has ''other'' effects)

Little bit fishy if you ask me .

[tipz]

IMO definately there to pacify and medicate the masses along with aspartame and various other goodies put in our food water and medications ! Call me a conspiracy theorist ( i am ! but better be that than a coincedence theorist or blind to the facts ) ! And is fluoride not the base for most anti-depressants too ? Im also strongly suspect of vaccinations. Its slightly off topic but i found this verifiable fact on them interesting

In the 1990’s the UN’s World Health Organization launched a campaign to vaccinate millions of women in Nicaragua, Mexico and the Philippines between the ages of 15 and 45, allegedly against Tentanus, a sickness arising from such things as stepping on a rusty nail. The vaccine was not given to men or boys, despite the fact they are presumably equally liable to step on rusty nails as women.

Because of that curious anomaly, Comite Pro Vida de Mexico, a Roman Catholic lay organization became suspicious and had vaccine samples tested. The tests revealed that the Tetanus vaccine being spread by the WHO only to women of child-bearing age contained human Chorionic Gonadotrophin or hCG, a natural hormone which when combined with a tetanus toxoid carrier stimulated antibodies rendering a woman incapable of maintaining a pregnancy. None of the women vaccinated were told.

It later came out that the Rockefeller Foundation along with the Rockefeller’s Population Council, the World Bank (home to CGIAR), and the United States’ National Institutes of Health had been involved in a 20-year-long project begun in 1972 to develop the concealed abortion vaccine with a tetanus carrier for WHO. from this link here

Interesting article... worth a read.

This is a good watch too ( in regards to fluoride )

http://tv.globalresearch.ca/2011/06/theres-something-water-dangers-sodium-fluoride

Edited October 13, 2011 by tipz

[CβL]

Seriosly tho, can't they just offer fluoridde in a product, and you can CHOOSE to have it....

I mean even if it is Benificial to teeth do we really need to have it in our water supply. Free choice is great.... Offer it for free along with needles and comdoms....

This all goes back to a MUCH deeper issue. The issue of whether the people should be able to directly decide their own collective future. The American founding fathers called it mob rule, and were against it.

I am not so sure though. It might seem idealistic and obvious that yes, of course the people should decide their own collective welfare. But when you place things such as global private media into the equation, then suddenly the illusion of an obvious choice disappears. All it takes is one puppeteer to pull the strings (90% of the population will have strings, by their own choice to be ignorant - because they decided that for themselves) and then suddenly YOUR future is jeopardized, because one puppeteer is running the show, and the people who think they are running the show have the belief it's what they have decided. Seems quite familiar doesn't it...

And unless there is regulation, then there is nothing to stop such a puppeteer medium existing (also seems familiar...). But if the people are manipulated into believing that regulation of their media is bad - then there won't be regulation of the media at all. And thus the cycle continues indefinitely.

So I think you can now see that it is not so simple as allowing people the choice of everything: Most people don't want to or can't make informed choices.

Don't confuse this with not allowing people personal choice (e.g. the right to smoke marijuana) - but collective choices, such as laws, education and spending.

So that is the challenge of the neo-lifeists; how to balance everyone's freedom of choice with a structure to ensure that their choice is informed.

Edit:

C'mon guys. When talking about scientific concepts - you should be able to provide a reference. E.g. fluoride is not the base of most psychiatric medicines at all.

Edited October 13, 2011 by βluntmuffin

[devance]

Fluoride is a soluble salt, not a heavy metal. There are two basic types of fluoride. Calcium fluoride appears naturally in underground water sources and even seawater.

Enough of it can cause skeletal or dental fluorosis, which weakens bone and dental matter. But it is not nearly as toxic, nor does it negatively affect so many other health issues as sodium fluoride, which is added to many water supplies.

Sodium Fluoride is a synthetic waste product of the nuclear, aluminum, and phosphate fertilizer industries. This fluoride has an amazing capacity to combine and increase the potency of other toxic materials. The sodium fluoride obtained from industrial waste and added to water supplies is also already contaminated with lead, aluminum, and cadmium.

It damages the liver and kidneys, weakens the immune system, possibly leading to cancer, creates symptoms that mimic fibromyalgia, and performs as a Trojan Horse to carry aluminum across the blood brain barrier. The latter is recognized as a source of the notorious "dumbing down" with lower IQ's and Alzheimer's effects of fluoride]

True and did the naked mole rat need flourided water for ever growing teeth,?

http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-10-naked-mole-genome-sequenced.html

Scientists have sequenced the complete genome of the naked mole rat, a pivotal step to understanding the animal's extraordinarily long life and good health. A colony of more than 2,000 naked mole rats at The University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio contributed to the findings, published today in the journal Nature.

he mouse-sized naked mole rat is the longest-lived rodent known, surviving up to 31 years in captivity. This is much longer than its laboratory rodent relatives, and the naked mole rat maintains good health and reproductive potential well into its third decade. Naked mole rats live underground in large family groups, like termites and bees, with only a single breeding female. These social rodents are extremely tolerant of life in low oxygen and high levels of carbon dioxide.

The naked mole rat's capacity to resist cancer and maintain protein integrity in the face of oxidative damage makes it an ideal animal model for aging and biomedical research, Dr. Buffenstein said. "Deciphering the animal's genetic blueprint is an important step to unlocking the keys to the naked mole rat's extraordinary longevity," she said. "This study reveals many of the genetic secrets to their extraordinary longevity, cancer resistance and pain tolerance, and their ability to survive in a low-oxygen environment. Indeed, having this animal's genetic blueprint is a treasure trove for many areas of biology and medicine because the genome will now be available to scientists everywhere to explore in their favored research area."

Barshop Institute Director Arlan Richardson, Ph.D., said: "The data in this Nature paper are very important for aging research because they give us the first glimpse into how the naked mole rat lives 10 times longer than its distant cousins, the mouse and rat."

Unusual appearance

Naked mole rats resemble pink, saber-toothed "sausages." Previous studies have yielded important insights into how the naked mole rat is able to rewire its brain (a process called neural plasticity), tolerate low oxygen and low body temperatures, and show cancer-free good health well into old age.

[CβL]

Good work devance - you have shown us your profound ability to paste things you have found on the internet. One already posted, and one mostly irrelevant.

Back to the topic at hand. It is quite false that Calcium Fluoride is much healthier than Sodium Fluoride "because it's natural". There are people exposed to natural deposits of Calcium Fluoride, and their bones are as degraded as those found in a hyaena's stomach.

Secondly, the usage of the term 'waste product' is a bit of a misnomer, as if it is further used then it is no longer a waste product, but a by-product. I understand that the term 'by-product' is not as loaded however, and so is not used. ;)

I would also like to remind everyone that Vegemite is also an industrial by-product (or industrial "waste product" to use the incorrect term).

Thirdly, it is wholly false that the Fluoride compounds used in municipal water supplies are contaminated with lead or cadmium. That is simply not true. You'd be dead far before the fluoride was an issue from lead or cadmium if this was the case. Furthermore, the concentrations are regularly assessed.

I am having difficulty finding research that bridges the gap between the conventional viewpoint and the conspiratorial one. Once I find a few more, I'll address more specific problems with fluoride. And remember, I never said that I thought water fluoridation was a good idea.

[devance]

If you look at all my capped teeth from over Fluoridation at a water treatment 9Lubbock, Texas] about 12 years of age]and a mole rat you will see it was from a overexposure, the enamel when forming was instead of wonderfully helpful watertreatment plant additive essentially did the opposite.

But if you like a chemical dumped into you water supply by poorly paid workers so be it.

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[back to the topic at hand. It is quite false that Calcium Fluoride is much healthier than Sodium Fluoride "because it's natural". There are people exposed to natural deposits of Calcium Fluoride, and their bones are as degraded as those found in a hyaena's stomach.

Secondly, the usage of the term 'waste product' is a bit of a misnomer, as if it is further used then it is no longer a waste product, but a by-product. I understand that the term 'by-product' is not as loaded however, and so is not used. ;)

I would also like to remind everyone that Vegemite is also an industrial by-product (or industrial "waste product" to use the incorrect term).

Thirdly, it is wholly false that the Fluoride compounds used in municipal water supplies are contaminated with lead or cadmium. That is simply not true. You'd be dead far before the fluoride was an issue from lead or cadmium if this was the case. Furthermore, the concentrations are regularly assessed.

I am having difficulty finding research that bridges the gap between the conventional viewpoint and the conspiratorial one. Once I find a few more, I'll address more specific problems with fluoride. And remember, I never said that I thought water fluoridation was a good idea. ]

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Luckyly for me,I am a scientist, clinical lab science[7 years], so I don't know what your talking about and never will.

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/fluorideharm.html

Edited October 13, 2011 by devance

[dollarjuice]

The problem with fluoride is that the dosage in your water doesn't actually stay on the teeth long enough to help, as blownG also said. I can't speak for most of you but generally when I'm thirsty and get a drink of water I don't swish it around my mouth for a few seconds before I gulp it down...

There is already fluoride in the majority of tooth-pastes which I believe is enough to more than sufficiently protect the teeth with regular brushing, which obviously should be done no matter what the fluoride content of the tooth-paste is.

My brother (33) and I (19) both grew up drinking water containing no fluoride and neither of us has had a cavity or ANY major dental work, ever.

[devance]

Teeth enamel problem

http://www.fluoridealert.org/toothpaste.htmlental Fluorosis

One of the most visible and well-recognized side-effects of ingesting fluoride toothpaste is a discoloration of teeth called dental fluorosis. Fluoride produces dental fluorosis by damaging the cells (ameloblasts) which produce the tooth's enamel. The resulting discoloration of teeth can range from white spots in the mild forms of the disorder to brownish and black stains in the the moderate and severe forms. (See pictures here)

Children with dental fluorosis - particularly those with the moderate or severe kinds - can experience significant esteem problems from the perceived unattractiveness of their teeth. As one young girl with dental fluorosis told British television:

"When I first saw that my teeth were discolored, I was teased quite a lot, especially in the middle school by people. They used to say, 'oh you don't clean your teeth or anything' and they used to call me 'shit teeth' which did upset me, even though I knew it was fluorosis."

Being that dental fluorosis is such a visible and tangible effect of over-exposure to fluoride, toothpaste companies are becoming increasingly vulnerable to litigation as public awareness of dental fluorosis increases. As a possible harbinger of what lies ahead for the industry, a family in England won a settlement from Colgate to pay for the costs of treating the dental fluorosis which their toothpaste caused.]

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I think that surface water has enoigh for a 12 year old to form enamel when producing a teeth.

Well water might a problem.

http://www.csa.com/discoveryguides/ern/00feb/overview.php

http://des.nh.gov/organization/commissioner/pip/factsheets/dwgb/documents/dwgb-3-12.pdf

The deeper a drilling means you have 2 layers of very old water sources that have isolated by granitite that has uranium in the rock produces radon

http://www.wise-uranium.org/rup.html

Edited October 13, 2011 by devance

[CβL]

devance:

No-one is arguing that too much fluoride is bad; we all agree on that. It's unfortunate about your teeth as well. Mine have had a hard time too. :/

Secondly, I can only assume that you are quoting my last sentence with your response (you should just have quoted that sentence, in that case). I don't see the need to brag about being a scientist, as it's not relevent. I have full access to scientific papers and journals and have my own credentials, but it's not relevent. My comment was more to do with actually finding specific papers (that have been repeated, and some form of consensus or disagreement reached) regarding the negative side to fluoride. I didn't see a lot of that, and if you have found relevent, reputable information regarding fluoride - then please post it.

So there seems to be a lot of contradictory findings on both salt fluoridation, and water fluoridation e.g. most of Europe stopped it from inefficacy (not from health problems). I think the price for water fluoridation (from memory), was about $0.96 per person, per year. If there is to be an alternative to fluoridation (which does have at least some degree of effectiveness), what can be done for about a dollar a year? That will get you about a tube of toothpaste each if there's some major bulk discounting (e.g. for cost price). Even if the price was quadrupled - and everyone got a toothpaste tube every 3 months, what would actually make people use it? Should the rarely/non-brushers just have rotten teeth? What about the substantial increase in dentistry costs for those rare/non-teeth-brushers (which is mostly not supported by the state, at least in New Zealand iirc). They would just not pay it and die from infection?

I'm not at all suggesting that fluoridation is the best way to go - only that I can't see an obvious, fair-priced alternative yet.

[devance]

All right, I will tell you how, although your teeth gone you must tell your children before they look like the British people.

A waterpick,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_peroxide

Thats 3% and dilute that to half and the rotten british teeth might to survive to chew for another day.

For tooth aches a couple drops of clove oil is best in waterpick.