Mind-Blowing Visions and Experiences

[drugo]

Given my time with the psychedelic folk-religion of Aus and the UK, where ecstatic 'mind-blowing' experiences and 'chasing visions' is often the name of the game, I've found some of the ideas by mystic and philosopher Jorge Ferrer (see below) quite liberating and grounding.

Excerpts taken from Revisioning Transpersonal Theory-- A Participatory Vision of Human Spirituality (2002) Suny Press

'Mystical ecstasies, trances, and absorptions are neither the final goal of the contemplative traditions [buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Sufism] nor should they be equated with final liberation... most traditions warn that these mystical states are not to be sought for their own sake, but are usually a psycho-spiritual preparation to participate in certain special states of discernment' (p.128) -- in other words, to participate in special ways of knowing the world ('knowing' that includes transrational forms such as emotional, perceptual, erotic, and intuitive knowing etc).

According to Ferrer, the trance-ecstasy states relative to each contemplative tradition do not equate to, or are not synonymous with, each tradition's doctrine of liberation. For example, 'The trance of cessation, culmination of the four formless Jhanas in Theravada Buddhism' should not be equated to 'nirvana'(p.129). 'Nirvana is objectless discernment free from the mind constructing activities and defilements (lust, hatred, and delusion) that is, the double knowledge of the destruction of the fluxes... and their absolute future nonarising' (p.129)

'The ultimate goal of most contemplative traditions, then, is not realised by entering any type of altered state, ecstasy, or trance, but by the overcoming of delusion and ignorance' (p.127).

Ferrer is an adept of certain Buddhist schools, so there is perhaps some bias towards Buddhism in his arguments, nonetheless, I think his main point is clear. Trance-ecstasy ain't the name of the game, according to many historically developed spiritual traditions, but is one important part of the game -- and when taken on its own, trance-ecstasy doesn't appear to amount to much. Rick Strassman's famous studies, where he dished-up 400 IV doses of DMT each to 60 participants over five years, supports this claim, given that the participants showed no real life changes in the years following the study.

People sometimes like to talk about 'integrating' revelatory psychedelic/entheogenic experiences (which I think is great), but, generally speaking, the moral and underlying assumption appears to be slightly wonky and missing the point. The world and mindset that psychedelic revelation is being integrated into is not considered strongly enough -- the relationship is lopsided -- and is therefore subtly tending towards (personal and social) dissociation or world escapism (Hence the warning from the contemplative traditions to not seek mystical states for their own sake).

What do you think>?

[CβL]

Fully agree.

The way I view the psychonautical experience is as an opportunity for destruction, just as much as creation (Similar to the aforementioned integration, but I think many people integrate haphazardly). But then I also use it to realize that any destruction or creation I can do is finite in nature, and that to truly accomplish anything - I must transcend that level, just as calculus transcends the Riemann sum (if you don't fully get the analogy, it's worth looking up).

[dollarjuice]

I'm not sure I completely understand what you're saying so stop me if I'm not quite getting it but I agree that the point isn't to reach any sort of higher knowing during some sort of psychedelic experience, (drug induced or not) but rather, using these experiences as a way to help you find your way to this higher state of conciousness.

'The ultimate goal of most contemplative traditions, then, is not realised by entering any type of altered state, ecstasy, or trance, but by the overcoming of delusion and ignorance' (p.127).

Like what they say here.

[Roopey]

I like this, and I am interested in reading some of Jorge's work. It makes sense though if you think about, say, a heroine addict. This is a person who has experienced ecstatic states that none of us have, yet most sit around and wallow in their own filth due to their own apathy. Without spiritual guidance, entheogens can be quite harmful and dangerous, especially in the way of ego-inflation. Without a humbling world-view, the messiah complex grows with every use, separating you from reality. This is how most people use these sacred substances unfortunately, as an escape and not to further their own connection to the each other, Mother Earth, Father Sun, and the cosmos as one whole. My goal in this realm is to eventually be able to look at the whole reality in its entirety and deny nothing.

Edited August 26, 2011 by Roopey

[synchromesh]

Psychedelic - "Mind-manifesting"

What a person does with the manifestations is up to them. There is a lot of responsibility involved.

[mud]

I think visions and siddhis and the mind blowingness is fine.

Meaning, and purpose..

even of life itself, is often lost more on buddhists than it is on anyone.

However, itss all as impermanent and inherently empty as the next thing..

so there's a danger in getting caught in the bright lights,

but

honestly I think few have worked out how to ground and integrate. If only cogintively speaking,

its a f*cking delight to have access to synesthesia, enhanced perception, psychic abilites and all that. Its great!

And why the f*ck not. Its your brain! And it probably run on metho before,

though after psychedelics, rocket fuel is naturally preferable.

It does need consideration, but as all quality distinctions..they should continue to be improved.

Anyway:

to will.. to intend.. to create..

OR

to BE.. to observe.. and remain free from mind.

Kamakaze spiral roundabout I reckon.

Just enjoy!

Edited August 26, 2011 by mud

[drugo]

Psychedelic - "Mind-manifesting"

What a person does with the manifestations is up to them. There is a lot of responsibility involved.

 

Yeah, I think I know what you mean. I wonder if traditions, as historically generated intelligence, may provide assistance on responsibility -- on ways to respond to the 'experiences' and place them constructively with everyday life (offering such jewels as cosmological and soteriological maps, itineraries, and frameworks) -- given that may a folk has walked a 'mind-manifesting' path in the past.

I thought the etymology is psyche(soul]delic[to open]. Same same but different.

@Roopey. You may be interested in checking out this talk by Ferrer on religion and mysticism

[mud]

I wonder if traditions, as historically generated intelligence, may provide assistance on responsibility -- on ways to respond to the 'experiences' and place them constructively with everyday life..

 

I wonder indeed..

Edited August 26, 2011 by mud

[woof woof woof]

I had an interessting experience once. while I was under the influence of psychedelics,.. I only think they falicitated the experience.

A person I had met made his voice heard in my head, as clear as if he used his voice. He was a person with many years of meditation under his belt. I have thought many times about the dynamics involved.... and I know from my own personal experiences now that it is possible even without psychedelics.

psychedelics CAN hinder your development if not used properly. psychedelics intense concentration for the duration of the trip.

with meditation you work to achieve strong concentration and therefore make it a part of your own. it becomes easier with time.

when 2 people are using the same psychedelic,... it makes it easier to resonate with eachother and therefore transcommunicate thoughts (telepathy)

[∂an]

'Mystical ecstasies, trances, and absorptions are neither the final goal of the contemplative traditions [buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Sufism] nor should they be equated with final liberation... most traditions warn that these mystical states are not to be sought for their own sake, but are usually a psycho-spiritual preparation to participate in certain special states of discernment' (p.128) -- in other words, to participate in special ways of knowing the world ('knowing' that includes transrational forms such as emotional, perceptual, erotic, and intuitive knowing etc).

 

But mystical ecstasies and trances are central to more primitive traditions, such as the San Bushman, aboriginal Australians, peoples of Upper Paleolithic Europe, Babongo and Mitsogo people of Gabon, amongst many others. In fact I would wager that ecstatic trance through dance and intoxication is the Urreligion of all primitive peoples.

Why is it that throughout history there has been a trend away from ecstatic trance and towards the contemplative traditions? Was it forced upon us due to lack of availability or loss of knowledge of techniques of ecstasy? Or was it a natural, conscious evolution towards a more sophisticated spiritually that was required to manifest the modern intelectual paradigm?

A very interesting and complex issue indeed. Personally, I lean towards ecstatic trance being necessary to attain true Gnosis.

Edited August 27, 2011 by kalika

[Roopey]

But mystical ecstasies and trances are central to more primitive traditions, such as the San Bushman, aboriginal Australians, peoples of Upper Paleolithic Europe, Babongo and Mitsogo people of Gabon, amongst many others. In fact I would wager that ecstatic trance through dance and intoxication is the Urreligion of all primitive peoples.

Why is it that throughout history there has been a trend away from ecstatic trance and towards the contemplative traditions? Was it forced upon us due to lack of availability or loss of knowledge of techniques of ecstasy? Or was it a natural, conscious evolution towards a more sophisticated spiritually that was required to manifest the modern intelectual paradigm?

A very interesting and complex issue indeed. Personally, I lean towards ecstatic trance being necessary to attain true Gnosis.

 

Even in tribal communities where ecstatic states were used they had formed entire belief systems that revolved around ritual and taboo. I think what that quote was trying to say is that once you reach the ecstatic state, that's just the beginning. That is when you are able to explore the world and cosmos from this new perspective, which is one of complete humility and compassion. Shamans and contemplative philosophy use many different states of awareness and comparing is difficult.

This is from the book The World Of Shamanism: New Views of an Ancient Tradition by Roger Walsh, M.D., Ph.D. Roger has his medical doctorate in Psychology and a Ph.D. in Anthropology. Obviously his book is very much a western perspective on a old tradition, and not from say the tribes-person themselves, who look through different eyes. But it is an interesting read never-the-less, and the obvious wealth of research put into his work is incredible.

Edited August 27, 2011 by Roopey

[CβL]

I think what that quote was trying to say is that once you reach the ecstatic state, that's just the beginning. That is when you are able to explore the world and cosmos from this new perspective, which is one of complete humility and compassion. Shamans and contemplative philosophy use many different states of awareness and comparing is difficult.

I disagree.

'The ultimate goal of most contemplative traditions, then, is not realised by entering any type of altered state, ecstasy, or trance, but by the overcoming of delusion and ignorance'

- seems to imply that the way to the ultimate goal is through effort and dedication, rather than through heightened states. That maybe your use of psychedelics is to learn that you don't need to use psychedelics. That you may glimpse a heaven, but you may not stay there, you can only try to walk there. Sometimes when navigating the jungle, you will climb a tall ridge to plan a route, and then you will descend back into the undergrowth to continue forward. Then I think you have moved to the next level.

Edited August 29, 2011 by βluntmuffin

[dollarjuice]

Sometimes when navigating the jungle, you will climb a tall ridge to plan a route, and then you will descend back into the undergrowth to continue forward. Then I think you have moved to the next level.

 

That's a brilliant metaphor for what I was trying to say. Perfect Bluntmuffin.

[drugo]

@ Roopey + Kalika. Since the 80s, anthropologists have been coming to grips with an incredible complexity of cross-cultural insight into shamanism. The high majority of researchers, who are savvy to the evidence, now speak of shamanisms (in the plural)-- emphasising humanity's rich diversities of (and often healthy contradictions between different) magico-religious systems and practitioners. The terms 'shamanism' and 'shaman' often tells us more about the person wielding knowledge than the realities of those being categorised and understood -- after all, 'shamanism' is a construct of the western imagination.

Taussig (1989:44) states that ‘shamanism is... a

made-up, modern, Western category, an artful reification of disparate practices, snatches of folklore and

overarching folklorization, residues of long-established myths intermingled with the politics of academic

departments, curricula, conferences, journal juries and... funding agencies’.

Geertz claimed that the term ‘shamanism’ is a meaningless and convenient abstraction

invented by anthropologists to sort their material (cited in Porterfield 1987:725). Wallis

comments that it is an ‘academic construct and a word for the West, its meaning inevitably

universalized, repeatedly re-fabricated, its definition contested’ (1999:4). Over a century ago

sociologist Van Gennep (2001 'Rites of Passage' [1903]:51) declared the term ‘vague and dangerous’.

[Roopey]

OK fair enough on all accounts. I wasn't being clear enough, and I misused words. There is indeed a marked difference between tribal practices and contemplative traditions. Tribal rituals and medicine was indeed very much about inducing a state of ecstasy and traversing into planes of reality that are other-wise invisible. Whereas, contemplative traditions might use ecstatic states periodically, it mostly focuses on states of calm and peace. These are very different states of awareness.

So Bluntmuffin, I do understand that the use of psychedelics is unnecessary to achieve the states that the contemplative traditions set out to achieve, but the relationship with the power plants that are here for us, and have given us these abilities to contemplate, and reason, and much more, need to be deepened and furthered with every day, and every breathe.

enthophanic, My apologize for quoting what I know to be a horribly limited view of the natural healers of this world, but nevertheless it does offer an interesting way for some people to intellectualize concepts that are otherwise unknowable.

[CβL]

No worries Roopey.

Don't get me wrong, there's no telling where I would be without the plants and fungi that have changed the way I thought. I'm eternally grateful. But I also know that I could of done it myself, I just didn't. But now that I know I can - I am and will. So that's a bit more insight into what I meant.

[∂an]

entheopanic: oops I meant to + your comment above, not neg

yeah I think I agree with you on some level but didn't like the examples put forward to your initial post - ie that the contemplative traditions are used to make the case regarding the centrality of ecstatic trance, and Strassman's DMT experiments for the effectiveness of the altered state itself. I believe that the trance state is necessary, but not sufficient - it's the beginning of the path.

[tedzr]

To me, the psychedelic experience has been more cathartic, intensifying and exposing pre-constructed viewpoints on life and sometimes shattering them. To dwell on mysticism ultimately opens gates to more elaborate metaphysical constructions that endanger overwhelming the potency of the phenomenological experience and cognitive processing of the trip. If you have a spiritual system that you think can help you then go for it, but to only ever seek spirituality from the psychedelic process seems to me to be missing the psychological power of so profoundly altering your consciousness. For me, the most tangible benefit to come out of psychedelics has been a de-fragmentation of my head space and an assertion of goals and direction. Conversely, the most pleasurable things are to have been pulled into completely different realms of what seems to be lived experience (i.e. trance states) and also euphoria.

What really has meaning to my personal life and has given ultimately the most joy is that internal processing and deep probing of real-life stuff that goes on, not usually all that pleasurable at the time but good food for thought later on. The temporary immersion into what truly feels like 'spirituality' can be very interesting and feel wonderful, but that not what I work on in the days and months afterwards.

[drugo]

To dwell on mysticism ultimately opens gates to more elaborate metaphysical constructions that endanger overwhelming the potency of the phenomenological experience and cognitive processing of the trip.

In Aus, most of us have been subtly forced to 'dwell on', during the formative years of life, 'elaborate metaphysical constructions' of reality that create our society's highly individualised, anthropocentric, secular, and rather disembodied ('top-heavy' over-valuing of thought, a la Cartesianism) sensibilities. The potency of these realities on the phenomenological experience and cognitive processing of psychedelic experiences is undeniable.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that you may be falling into the Cartesian trap of sharply splitting and alienating mind from body by imply that all psychedelics activate some pure or unified formation of experience (body) that transcends elaborate metaphysical constructions (mind). For the last 100 years or so this duality, as an analytical category, has increasingly been understood by the sciences as being dialectical -- that mind and body co-construct each other in various ways.

To me, the psychedelic experience has been more cathartic, intensifying and exposing pre-constructed viewpoints on life and sometimes shattering them.

 

Rather than being some ultimate unchanging viewpoint on life, it appears that encountering of 'pre-constructed viewpoints' during psychedelic experiences are predominately expressions of unconscious patters and conditions that are particular to the individual -- those parts of us that were once 'constructed' yet have gone-underground, beyond our awareness -- ie, our unique biographical configurations of being creative agents socialised through interpersonal engagement with particular families, communities, religions, schools, media giants, films (socio-historic and linguistic horizons).

Given the realities of cultural diversity around the globe, there are obviously numerous possibilities for the construction of reality for human beings. Often what we take to be a simple gesture of reality is in fact dependent on a complex construction of reality that is unconsciously authorised or accepted by our previously socialised norms. "Is the wind a mechanical dead force of nature?" or "Is the wind alive and a person?".

It seems to me that psychedelics (particularly acid, shroom, aya, pedro etc) allow greater contact with, and creative transformation of, the socialised unconscious processes that colour, shape and mediate our sense of given reality and our orientation in that reality.

If you have a spiritual system that you think can help you then go for it, but to only ever seek spirituality from the psychedelic process seems to me to be missing the psychological power of so profoundly altering your consciousness.

I wouldn't be so quick to separate 'psychology' or 'psychological power' from spirituality.

But, in recent weeks I started to contemplate a similar thought that psychedelics are not always spiritual technologies. Perhaps in lower doses, like a tab of acid or a couple grams of shrooms, the highly pleasurable and humorous potentials of telepathy, synaesthesia, sensual poetry, enhanced cognition, and profound affinity with things beyond the self, may not be strictly 'spiritual' phenomena. But, how else should we broadly categorise the experiencing of them?... as participating in the subtle vibrations of a kind of electro-magnetic field that pulses and flows with the force of life?... Surely it makes more sense to welcome secular 'science', as the gone-astray narcissistic brother, back to his valued and indispensable position in the family of philosophy who all feed on the nourishing, creative and powerful flavours of spirit.

[woof woof woof]

meditation also allows you to have a look above the canopy, so you can navigate the undergrowth.

psychedelics are very helpful, because they can help you make/build/color a reference of your inner world.

psychedelics are just tools. In the beginning they are allot of fun. There is no better way to learn using a new tool then to have fun with it so you can familiarize with it. Slowly you should realize what it is and then when you have grown to understand what they are (just (beautiful) tools) you can leave them for what they are and use them as needed.

meditation however is allot more effective in the long run for spiritual growth. But in these critical times,.... I think that is important to have people opened up quickly/effectively,.... to help turn the tide on especially environmental/''spiritual'' issues.

[devance]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participatory_theory

http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-10-blue-whales-earthworms-common-mechanism.html

A little pot and hugging everyone and familys can actually sleep in a tent on a mountain will make you the leading spiritual specialist.

How much does it cost?

With hallucenogens?