The Great Global Cooling/Warming Thread

[hutch]

How does this work ?

THE TOP EIGHT COUNTRIES THE AUSTRALIAN GOVERNMENT GAVE YOUR TAX DOLLARS TO IN 2010-2011

Indonesia $458,700.00 million

Papua New Guinea $457,200,00 million

Solomon Islands $225,700.00 million

Afghanistan $123,100.00 million

Vietnam $119,800.00 million

Philippines $118,100.00 million

East Timor $102,700.00 million

Cambodia $64,200.00 million

TOTAL = $ 1,669,000,000.00 - given away in 52 weeks

..but wait there's more.

· Australia provides approximately 150,000 tonnes of food aid every year—about $65 million—to Bangladesh, Indonesia, Sri Lanka, Sudan and Chad

·

· In 2005 John Howard committed Australia to double Australian aid to about $4 billion a year by 2010

·

· In 2010-2011 the Australian Government plans to spend almost $4.4 billion on development assistance

·

· In 2008 the Australian community contributed $812.19million to non-government organisations

And now Gillard will give $500,000,000.00 for Indonesia's Islamic schools

which are largely moderate in outlook but there have been pockets of radicalism that

have produced terrorists in Indonesia, most notably the cleric Abu Bakar Bashir's school in Ngruki, central Java, where some of the Bali bombers studied.

SO….. Ask your local member how come 2010 Queensland flood victims get $1 million ?

When insurers, such as Allianz and CGU, provide cover for storm damage but exclude flood from their home and contents policies.

It's from an email I received, if its true than ............................F*$@ me!

 

I think you'll find it is mostly true, we are a generous country as we should be when times are good. I don't think times are that good at the moment..pensioners and those at the poverty line are struggling. Pensioner crime is on the rise as they can't afford their power habits at the moment

[dworx]

That's in reference to focusing on US by the way - that is Australians not the U.S or any other country but us.

[hutch]

How it Works: Drive up Food Prices By Demanding Biofuel, Then Blame Global Warming.

http://hauntingthelibrary.wordpress.com/

Criminal again!!!!!

[hutch]

So what you do is take a climate change fanatic and put him in charge of delivering to the Government an impartial report on the flood disaster and climate change....Yeah right!!! Pull the other one Joooolia....

A report on the flood disaster and climate change will be undertaken by an expert on the federal government's multi-party committee which is investigating ways to price carbon.

Professor Will Steffen, a member of the climate change committee set up by the Gillard government in September last year, told AAP he was working on a report covering the floods.

 

http://www.smh.com.a...0117-19trl.html

[C_T]

because we steal their oil in the Indonesian waters, easy...

[The Dude]

hutch... I think like Slybacon was alluding to re: the power of our beliefs, We DO play god with our conscious/subconscious wish fulfillment or nightmare creation. Now our betters in the scientific community can once again prove their infallible authority on truth by building a global consensus and having all of us help manifest their apocalypse, their own self fulfilling prophecy... of course such metaphysical machinations of physical causality are impossible to explain scientifically so must be untrue.

Now we can believe the scientists doom predictions, but no way in hell will we really believe that a carbon tax or any political action will save us. As far as we're concerned all politicians and corporations do is lie cheat and steal from us (we might hope otherwise but subconsciously we know this to be the case), so we have only one choice, believe we're doomed and know that our governments won't save us either.

What a great mental path we're on. If we don't act soon who knows what sort of toxic memes will ruin our childrens mental environments. hehe fear mongering is great!

Science can describe the box and what's in it, but cannot think outside it. Science describes nature but cannot explain the supernatural the Supra-natural, which supersedes mere observation of nature, and actually creates the phenomena observed. Knowledge of the chains that bind us, as detailed and precise and correct as these observations are, doesn't make the decision to be chained by such beliefs. If St. Peter gave you the keys to heaven would you believe him? Or do you need a consensus to prove it?

I'm very much one of those people that feel beliefs dictate reality. If you want answers bad enough you will find them..... I've made things come true.

 

I agree that if you believe in anything strongly enough it will prove itself to you.

The calculations of a doom hypothesis powered by the feedback loops of the imagination accelerating towards oblivion would reach it's inevitable end. It seems such mechanical or logical thought processes lack the rejuvination of the never ending fountain, not contained in any book or peer reviewed journal, do you know where to find it?

Science cannot be a basis for understanding the truth without also maintaining a connection to the divine. A balanced perspective is the only way to see the big picture.

I feel for people with children that get into some kind of fear based "need to save the world for my kids" delusion that perhaps through their own subconscious fear facilitates the destruction of it (the whole, "you lose that which you fear to lose" self directed destiny paradox).

[sarcasm]I think we should all jump on board these fear based thought loops![/sarcasm] but then I'm probably not taking this seriously enough!

[edit]spelling

Edited January 21, 2011 by The Dude

[hutch]

For the past ten years we have been listening to fanatics preaching our doom....We are listening to the wrong people here folks..too much money has been made in the name of this new religion and now, we can attribute some deaths to that wrong advise?...

BRISBANE City Council's top flood engineer recommended a decade ago that Wivenhoe Dam be operated differently to ensure a much larger buffer against flooding, documents obtained under Freedom of Information show.

Engineer Ken Morris warned in an internal report, Brisbane River Flooding, that the existing and longstanding Queensland government policy of operating the dam at full supply level meant its capacity to mitigate floods was significantly compromised.

Mr Morris, the council's principal engineer for flood management, also warned a decade ago that the council's development controls meant thousands of residents were unaware they would be severely hit by floods during rainfall events that were much smaller than those predicted to occur once in 100 years, despite assurances that their properties would not be affected.

http://www.theaustra...v-1225991369355

[hutch]

If St. Peter gave you the keys to heaven would you believe him? Or do you need a consensus to prove it?

I've already got the keys to heaven

[Slybacon]

Science cannot be a basis for understanding the truth without also maintaining a connection to the divine. A balanced perspective is the only way to see the big picture.

[edit]spelling

 

\

You are so good with language my friend. Thankyou.

Bacon.

Science is not intended for the understanding of God, because, by human definition, God is supernatural, and science only studies the natural.

 

This is why you and so many scientists have it wrong...... You have told me to go and study science, now Im telling you to go meditate on what you have said here.

[hutch]

This Elizabeth Farrelly of Sydney Morning Herald fame has gone looney...She has damaged the AGW cause no end and this is a paper that is very supportive of Climate Change. Are they fools or giving her enough rope so to speak? Read the article and then start reading the comments....Highly unusual in that paper as you rarely get a skeptics point of veiw and there is not one comment in support on the first page..Not what she expected I'm sure. With the crap that has been coming out of Bob Browns mouth lately and all the lies and deception I think thi scam is being busted wide open...

Gillard is gone IMO and with her will go a lot of this nonsense....I am all for doing all we can to clean up our act but I wont fall for this AGW rubbish...Sorry Woody but thats how I feel...You have done your best but you have helped convince me....

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/clean-energy-alternatives-to-allay-big-coals-flood-of-tears-20110119-19wj0.html

[hutch]

I can dredge up links from all over the net from around 2006 on by scientists claiming frog species were being wiped out and it was all because of AGW. My computer had a mild heart attack so I am using my old, just works lap top so I wont link to any more of them...this one is almost the same as the rest anyway or they are at least preaching the same doom and gloom.

http://news.national...og_climate.html

So if they now say the frogs are fine....they adapt to there enviroment and they are just hunk dory thanks... so does this mean we once again have beaten Global Warming...the greatest morale challange of our time?

 

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20827903.500-fungus-out-the-frog-resistance-is-here.html

Edit wrong linky thing

Edited January 20, 2011 by hutch

[hutch]

I'm quite happy to go on the record as believing that the current catastrophic Queensland flooding has been made much worse than it might otherwise have been, by the warming that we've had even just to date. The oceans temperatures off Australia are an enormous heat engine that is driving the evaporation of the water in the present El Niño/La Niña-Southern Oscillation cycle responsible for the rain. If we keep warming the planet, ocean temperaures with themselves warm even further, and instead of this type of flooding happening evern century or so, it could happen every decade or two. Can we really deal with that?

 

CSIRO: Queensland's drought wasn't "global warming", nor these floods, either

http://www.csiro.au/...EQ-Drought.html

[hutch]

I'm quite happy to go on the record as believing that the current catastrophic Queensland flooding has been made much worse than it might otherwise have been, by the warming that we've had even just to date. The oceans temperatures off Australia are an enormous heat engine that is driving the evaporation of the water in the present El Niño/La Niña-Southern Oscillation cycle responsible for the rain. If we keep warming the planet, ocean temperaures with themselves warm even further, and instead of this type of flooding happening evern century or so, it could happen every decade or two. Can we really deal with that?

 

The great avoidable flood: an inquiry's challenge

The picture being painted before the start of a commission of inquiry, headed by Supreme Court judge Cate Holmes, is that the Brisbane River flood was largely the product of water released from the dam.

 

The calculations also show that the dam's capacity for flood storage was wrenched away because the releases on the previous weekend were too low, too late.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-depth/queensland-floods/the-great-avoidable-flood-an-inquirys-challenge/story-fn7iwx3v-1225992644199

[lickapop]

Science cannot be a basis for understanding the truth without also maintaining a connection to the divine. A balanced perspective is the only way to see the big picture.

 

I like this. But I feel science is the basis for understanding the truth. Science is based on fact from what I understand and then from that basis one can move onto speculating a connection to the devine. Science is not after a balanced perspective. Thats for people like you and me.

This is why you and so many scientists have it wrong...... You have told me to go and study science, now Im telling you to go meditate on what you have said here.

 

shiftyoink...I think you are making a big assumption if you feel this has not been meditated on by WD. I fail to see how any scientist in any field would not meditate on it quietly at some point.

Or maybe I am assuming much

Just an opinion about the brisbane floods. I really cant see how the water released from the dam has much to do with the disaster. They failed in the timing of releases yeah but..Where was the damn dam in 74?

Here is a thought...The government failed the citizens of Brisbane because they allowed development on known flood areas. The people who purchased/built in these areas are just as much to blame. Insurance companies should not have to folk out 1c or even provide cover because someone decides to build on a river that is known to flood...dam or no dam. The government shouldnt have to pay either because even though they allowed development, its the end user who is responsible. Its regrettable. Are we going to learn from it? Not a chance. They will rebuild in known flood areas and not change a thing. It will flood again. Death taxes and floods. So really hutch, we can point the finger at who we think should be held accountable but at the end of the day it all points to the people who lost everything.

Im upto page 2 on in this thread(and the last page...just wanted to see where this was heading)...have been for a few days now. Its an interesting subject. WD...Your info is second to none from what I can see. Thanks for taking the time out. I have been trying to comprehend both sides as best I can.

So global warming is/is not happening? Well science says it is, and some science has also fraudulently doctored information to say it is. Is that a problem? I dont think so. It takes a denier to believe WE are not effecting this planet and direct/indirectly amplifying its changes. It also takes a denier to believe that governments and big corporations are to blame and they need to fix it. Its the end user thats to blame. Its us every time we flick a switch on in our house(not you bacon) or fill up our cars with juice. We are feeding these corporations...US, you and I... just trying to survive. Your kidding yourself imo if you think any different. Well I am only to page 2 so I could change my mind

Edited January 22, 2011 by lickapop

[Slybacon]

We are feeding these corporations...US, you and I... just trying to survive. Your kidding yourself imo if you think any different. Well I am only to page 2 so I could change my mind

 

The operative word here being survive. Its too expensive to do it anyother way.... Hence "MOST" end users cannot be held accountable for the system they need to provide, It is the system that needs to change and the users will follow. AGW is just being used to control you and your wallet and your lives....

Your kidding yourself if you don't think the order of the world is under going a huge change. Your kidding your self if you don't think we are getting closer to a unified globalized world with one government. This is the true agenda behind AGW and your guilt is being played against you.

So maybe we need to stop giving out Million and Billion dollar paychecks and start bringing down the costs of the end user, then maybe the system will allow us to make a more sustainable change.

[Slybacon]

Here is an idea from a similar topic on another forum...

Craig Oxley writes,

U.S. WEATHER WARFARE ON AUSTRALIA IN ORDER TO STARVE CHINA OF COAL ENERGY WHILST BRING THEM BEGGING FOR THIS OFF THE U.S. ALONG WITH FOOD SUPPLIES. ALL IN ORDER FOR CONTROL AND TO AID THE BANKRUPT U.S. ECONOMY. WATCH THE PRICE GO SKY HIGH!!!...

[Slybacon]

Rare thundersnow phenomenon leaves a weatherman amazed...

and becomes a YouTube sensation

By Daniel Bates

Last updated at 7:02 PM on 21st January 2011

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/art...n.html?ITO=1490

A clip of a weatherman unable to contain himself when confronted by thundersnow has become a YouTube sensation.

Jim Cantore from the Weather Channel becomes slack-jawed with amazement when he experienced the phenomenon, which is when thunder and lightning strike during a snowstorm.

He turns around as if the storm were lurking behind him before peering into the camera with boyish enthusiasm and announces: ‘We had a thundersnow!’

Cantore’s reaction stemmed from the fact that, even if it seems like an everyday event, thundersnow is indeed a rare occurrence.

Cantore was making his broadcast from snow-bound Worcester in Massachussetts when he saw some lightning which made him lean back, turn around and say: ‘Woah! Was that lightning?’

For a few moments his face lights up before the thunder sounds out live on air.

With the manner of a man who has just scored the winning goal for his football team, he announces: ‘We just had a Thundersnow, we just had a lightning strike and thunder here in Worcester.

‘It is snowing at over four inches an hour, we have 13 inches of snow on the ground, we just walked down the street, we heard reports of... a tree down on a house’.

Over his years with the Weather Channel Cantore has been dispatched to some of the harshest weather the U.S. has to offer.

Other clips on YouTube show him nearly being washed out to sea by hurricane Isabel in 2008 and getting overly excited about some storms in Nashville in Nashville, Tennessee.

Amateur weathermen dating back to ancient Chinese times have tried to understand thundersnow but it was not until the 19th Century that its secrets were unpicked.

 

 

WHAT IS THUNDERSNOW?

Thunder and lightning are more usually associated with warmer climates but under certain conditions they can occur in cold ones too.

Thundersnow starts out like a summer thunderstorm - the sun heats the ground and pushes masses of warm, moist air upward, creating unstable air columns.

As it rises, the moisture condenses to form clouds, which are jostled by internal turbulence.

Lightning is caused by this rubbing of the clouds against each other - thunder is the sound of lightning but as sound moves more slowly than light we hear it later.

The tricky part for making thundersnow is creating that atmospheric instability in the wintertime.

When it is cold, and particularly in air conducive to snowfall, the lower atmosphere is dry, cold and very stable.

For thundersnow to occur there needs to be a very precise set of circumstances - the air layer closer to the ground has to be warmer than the layers above, but still cold enough to create snow.

When this happens warm air rises, snow falls and thunder, lightning and snow all occur at the same time.

[Slybacon]

The Arctic freeze leaves behind TWO MILLION potholes... one for every 180 yards of road in the country

By Andrew Levy

Last updated at 12:01 AM on 22nd January 2011

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13...m-potholes.html

The number of potholes blighting our roads could break the two million barrier for the first time this year, experts predict.

Arctic weather conditions, which led to a damaging freeze-thaw effect on road surfaces, mean a 40 per cent surge is expected.

And that would be equal – on average – to one hole for every 180 yards of the 200,000 miles of local roads in England and Wales.

[Slybacon]

Snow Should End in New York Within Hours, Flights Scrubbed

By Brian K. Sullivan - Jan 21, 2011 1:53 PM GMT+0000

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-01-21/n...-days-near.html

The snow that made a mess of New York City’s morning commute will be followed by a blast of Arctic air and the coldest days of the season, forecasters said.

Two to 4 inches of snow have been reported across New York, New Jersey and Connecticut from the second wintry storm in a week, according to Lauren Nash, a National Weather Service meteorologist in Upton, New York.

The snow ended in New York City by 8 a.m., and should stop in Boston shortly after noon, said Paul Walker, a senior meteorologist at AccuWeather Inc. in State College, Pennsylvania.

“Once the snow is over, an Arctic front comes through,” Walker said. “The big thing will be how cold it gets in the East. It will be the coldest air of the season.”

The cold front will send New York City’s overnight temperatures into the teens, and highs won’t rise above freezing until Jan. 25, the weather service said.

A total of 4.2 inches of new snow was reported in Manhattan’s Central Park at 7 a.m., with 3.9 at Kennedy International Airport and 3.6 at LaGuardia, the agency said. An inch of snow and ice fell on Central Park on Jan. 18.

Before the snow ends in Boston between noon and 2 p.m., about 6 inches will fall across a large part of eastern Massachusetts, Walker said. Schools in Boston and many of its suburbs were closed for the day, according to school system websites.

Airport Status

More than 245 departing flights were canceled at LaGuardia and Newark Liberty International airports today, according to their websites. While Teterboro Airport in New Jersey was closed until 9 a.m., no other large East Coast airports reported major delays, the Federal Aviation Administration reported.

Metro North and the Long Island commuter trains are operating on schedule. The New York City Office of Emergency Management had asked people to use mass transit today and avoid driving into the city.

The arriving cold front will be “most brutal” for the Northeast on Jan. 23 and Jan. 24, said Matt Rogers, president of Commodity Weather Group LLC in Bethesda, Maryland.

“There will be a lot of sub-zero readings for the Northeast,” he said. “It will be very impressive.”

More Snow Coming

Behind the cold will be another winter storm made up of two areas of energy, one from the north and the other from the south combining to form a larger system off the U.S. East Coast, he said. The exact track will determine how much snow Philadelphia, New York, Boston and other cities will receive.

“The models are in disarray right now in the details,” Rogers said. However, Rogers said ski areas of Vermont, Maine and New Hampshire will receive a lot of new snow.

The heating degree days value for January in Central Park was 670, or 24 above normal, as of yesterday, according to the National Weather Service.

The value, calculated by subtracting the daily average temperature from a base of 65 degrees, is designed to show energy demand. The higher the value, the cooler the weather, and thus the more energy probably being used to heat homes and business.

The value in Albany was 846, or 6 below normal, through yesterday, weather service records show. In Boston, the value is 694 for the month, or 14 below normal; in Chicago it was 877, or 15 above normal; and in St. Louis it was 746 or 33 above normal, according to the weather service.

To contact the reporter on this story: Brian K. Sullivan in Boston at [email protected].

To contact the editor responsible for this story: Dan Stets at [email protected]

[Slybacon]

Search to save wild food crops

10.12.10

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/art...d-food-crops.do

A global search to save the wild relatives of wheat, rice, potato and other food crops from climate change has been launched.

The Global Crop Diversity Trust (GCDT) said the campaign was designed protect global food supplies against changes in climate and strengthen international food security.

Norway pledged 50 million US dollars (£31.8m) to the effort, which will look for 23 food species including barley, lentils, chickpeas and beans, and is being supported by Britain's Royal Botanic Gardens based in Kew, Surrey.

GCDT executive director Cary Fowler said: "All our crops were originally developed from wild species - that's how farming began.

"But they were adapted from the plants best suited to the climates of the past. Climate change means we need to go back to the wild to find those relatives of our crops that can thrive in the climates of the future.

"We need to glean from them the traits that will enable modern crops to adapt to new, harsher and more demanding situations. And we need to do it while those plants can still be found."

The work is scheduled to take 10 years, from locating seeds for the crops to preparing them for growth.

Once found the seeds will be stored in locations around the world, including Kew and the Svalbard Global Seed Vault in Norway.

Around one in five of the Earth's plants is threatened with extinction, a spokesman for the Royal Botanic Gardens said.

[Slybacon]

FEMA urges all Americans to prepare

for earthquakes or other disasters

Posted: Friday, December 17, 2010 11:00 am

http://tristate-media.com/drr/news/local_n...1cc4c03286.html

CHICAGO - Thursday marked the 199th anniversary of one of the largest earthquakes to ever strike the United States. The Federal Emergency Management Agency's (FEMA) Ready Campaign is encouraging all Americans to prepare for earthquakes and other disasters by making a new year's resolution to "Resolve to be Ready" in 2011.

"Today's anniversary should serve as an important reminder to all of us that disasters can strike anytime, anywhere," said Andrew Velasquez III, regional administrator for FEMA Region V.

"FEMA continues to work with the entire federal family, state and local governments, the private sector, and faith-based and non-profit organizations to prepare for the next disaster. Individuals, families, and businesses can resolve to be ready and take simple steps now to prepare for emergencies by visiting Ready.gov for free tips and ideas."

The earthquake took place in the New Madrid Seismic Zone (NMSZ), which is the site of several of the largest historical earthquakes to ever strike the continental United States and remains a significant risk today.

On Dec. 16, 1811 the first of these quakes struck what is now the location of Memphis, Tenn., at a level nine intensity - and the impacts were felt as far away as Washington and Ohio. By the time the final quake occurred on Feb. 7, 1812 in New Madrid, Mo., the shaking had forced sand to erupt at the surface, triggered landslides and caused large areas to be uplifted or dropped down in elevation.

Since then, communities along the NMSZ have experienced explosive growth in both population and infrastructure.

Another series of earthquakes with the magnitude of the 1811 earthquakes could prove catastrophic to the region.

FEMA and its federal partners, non-governmental organizations, and state and local officials will collaborate on a series of outreach efforts, partnerships and events over the next year, including Earthquake Preparedness Month in February, the Great Central U.S. Shakeout in April, and the 2011 National Level Exercise. These events are designed to educate Americans on what they can do to be better prepared for earthquakes, as well as other catastrophic events.

Individuals and their families can take the following steps to prepare for earthquakes:

• Get an emergency supply kit;

• Make a family communications plan;

• Stay informed of the risks in your community;

• Check for hazards in the home;

• Identify safe places indoors and outdoors; and

• Educate yourself and family members.

For more information on preparing for an earthquake and other emergencies, please visit www.Ready.gov. For more information on Resolve to be Ready in 2011, visit www.Ready.gov/resolve2011.

[Slybacon]

London heath flooding could kill thousands, experts warn

Ross Lydall

21 Jan 2011

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/art...experts-warn.do

Thousands of Londoners could die if the capital is hit by a catastrophic downpour, a study has revealed.

Floods would cascade off Hampstead Heath and into homes from Finsbury Park to Kilburn, sweeping people off their feet and causing huge damage.

Experts say the danger would be on a scale comparable to floods that destroy- ed the Cornish town of Boscastle in 2004 and devastated Cumbria in 2009.

Heath superintendent Simon Lee said: "On loss of life, we are looking at four figures. It's a very significant risk."

The threat emerged after heath bosses revealed that £10million of repairs were needed to meet new flooding laws and prevent the 18 ponds bursting their banks. This could take three years.

Hydrologists simulated the effect of a "once in 10,000 years" downpour and were shocked at the potential damage if a deluge came rushing off the heath.

A catastrophe would be caused if 5.3 inches of rain fell in four hours. The water would pour down railway tracks to Kilburn and King's Cross.

Homes on the heath's eastern edge at Dartmouth Park would be worst hit and the floods would surround the Royal Free Hospital. A downpour in 1975 saw 6.7 inches of rain - but that fell over 19 hours, lessening the damage although still flooding homes in Gospel Oak. At the storm's peak, 3.1in fell in four hours and breached the ponds' defences.

Mr Lee said: "Because it's very heavy clay, water goes through at quite a rate. It's very unlikely but the problem we have got is that there is a chance the dams might fail in their current state.

"The implication is severe flooding in urban areas. A huge breach would see those houses close to the heath inundated immediately.

"The issue is the speed of the water. Even at only one foot deep, if it's travelling at speed it will knock people off their feet and sweep them away."

City of London Corporation, which manages the heath, plans a 10ft clay mound between some of the Highgate ponds to act as a "mini Thames Barrier" and hold back water from the northern ponds and Kenwood.

The work, not due until next year, would cause short-term damage to the look and ecology of the heath, which attracts eight million visitors a year, and close the ponds to swimmers.

The £250,000 study says that if flood defences are improved, potential loss of life would fall to "double figures".

[lickapop]

The operative word here being survive. Its too expensive to do it anyother way.... Hence "MOST" end users cannot be held accountable for the system they need to provide, It is the system that needs to change and the users will follow. AGW is just being used to control you and your wallet and your lives....

 

I agree mostly but we are all accountable whether we want it or not. everyone of us are being used and your kidding yourself if you think YOUR not

Your kidding yourself if you don't think the order of the world is under going a huge change. Your kidding your self if you don't think we are getting closer to a unified globalized world with one government. This is the true agenda behind AGW and your guilt is being played against you.

Im not kidding myself...Im fully aware. Your kidding yourself because you guys look at the unified globalised one government as the end product. Unified couldnt be further from the truth.

So maybe we need to stop giving out Million and Billion dollar paychecks and start bringing down the costs of the end user, then maybe the system will allow us to make a more sustainable change.

Well I will if you do, but your not because you will continue to pay the asking price of everything you consume. catch 21. The best we can do is consume less and if that means some scientists allegedly manipulates global warming data to scare the bejesus out of us, to consume less than good on them

Edited January 22, 2011 by lickapop

[Slybacon]

The best we can do is consume less and if that means some scientists allegedly manipulates global warming data to scare the bejesus out of us, to consume less than good on them

 

Ouch!

[hutch]

. The best we can do is consume less and if that means some scientists allegedly manipulates global warming data to scare the bejesus out of us, to consume less than good on them

 

Case Closed....