Where to begin?

[Zendog]

Hi all

I have been lurking around here for quite a few years. My main interest until recently has been exploring various chemicals for recreational purposes but now I am on a new tact.

I used to use a lot of drugs, now it would only be acid or shrooms once a year.

I really battle with depression, anxiety, ocd... only got my life into some kind of a sembelence of normality a year ago when I started taking phenelzine.

20kg weight gain later, I had to stop it....and besides, it wasn't working nearly as get as it once did.

I am just going to come out and be honest... I am lost, just totally lost in my own life.

The clarity of thought and spiritual experience I have had on tryptamines have shown me the way more than anything else. But it has never lasted..or at least, it just gets me to the next step where I am lost again.

I want to explore my spiritual side, and I want to use tryptamines to aid me in this.

I guess what I am asking is if any members here could point me in the right direction for a metaphysical sea change that doesnt involve dropping out of society as a whole.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated

[kayesem]

What's the deal with the years of lurkingness?

I struggle with the same shit, except OCD.

It's great that you can admit that you feel lost. I know what it's like. Interestingly, (in hindsight) a lot of my lost feelings were perpetuated by tryptamine use. I would get dosed up (heaps) and feel most at home and like the world made sense, and then it would wear off and back to the same old meaningless, cold shitty world. It wasn't that the world was really crap. It was just that my view of it (and myself) was crap, and also that i was in a bad way in general and things were not great, and only to get worse as i went into self destruct mode.

I had found god in a mushroom. I had found my true self and spirit, and yet it was seemingly impossible to reconcile any of my experiences with the normal world, they seemed so far removed from eachother.

I crashed hard. I still thank my girlfriend for seemingly saving my life and helping me put pieces back together, but she says that i did all the work myself. I think yeh, that's true, i put in a huge effort, but she showed me love and kindness, and gave me the support and gentle encouragement that i so desparately needed.

So yeh, avoid the self destruct path if you can. I lost my job, housing etc. and felt like i was heading for jail anyway so it didn't matter what i did. Strangely, i brought it all on myself, mainly i think due to too much of this:

A lot of my depression was linked to shit life circumstances really, and nothing but time and effort and support from others could change that. I tried 2 different types of meds, both of which i found useless.

Another big part is the perception of a meaningless existence. Waking up in the morning and thinking, 'What the fuck for? Why should i get out of bed?' etc.

Find out where you're at, and where you really want to be, and then take steps towards that. The fact that you are taking steps helps you to have some meaning, even if it's only getting to a place that's better than where you are now, mental and or physical.

Have a support network around you, even if it is only one or two people, you can only do so much by yourself.

Forget about meds and work on the real causes. Having support helps a lot here, even if only for another perspective.

If you must use psychs, use them with great care and set purposeful intentions to your trip. Not much point tripping on how fucked your life is.

Read the 'Psychedelic Guide to the Tibetan Book of the Dead'. It's a guide to tripping and if used correctly, will assist you getting to the most benificial places. It can work the other way too, but if you remember the instructions you will be fine. It's availably online for free, just search for it and make sure you get the full text. When i applied it, i hadn't quite finished reading it and got stuck in a nasty place for a while which could have been avoided, but i finally ended up in a pure state of beingness. I was centred, felt whole and complete and totally at peace, and felt like i had a break from the world to truly rest but without having to physically die to do so.

The above requires meditation, but with the aid of psychs (acid or shrooms, shrooms are best). The practice on it's own should be similarly the goods. I still have not got into a regular habit, but hope to sometime soon. Things go at a much slower pace which can help you to integrate things more easily into everyday life, which is what you want.

Good diet and exercise goes a long way. Still working on that myself.

Don't smoke weed or drink alcohol heavily. These drugs are depressants and yes, they contribute to you feeling generally crap if you abuse them, despite temporary nice feelings when fucked up.

There are many things to consider. Strangely, in a sense you are getting lost when you meditate. That is, if you identify with your mind and thoughts. But they are not you, and will need to be surrendered to stillness if you wish to truly get to the core of your being and who you really are.

Anyway, all the best. Perhaps some more details of your situation would reveal what's best for you at this stage, and what you found helpful in the past.

I am happy to answer any questions.

[mutant]

Awesome reply kaysem!

Zendog, welcome....

if you like,

expose yourself more:

-ocd, depression, anxiety , did they come after the drug use or they preexisted?

-did the symptoms go away with psychedelic use?

-what drugs have you abused, over what span of time and how old are you? how heavy was the abuse?

IMO drugs without therapy are not much for a long term situation, especially when we're talking about curable neurosis type problems like those mentioned. Taking drugs to fix your soul needs serious objectivity, knowledge and will , which most people lack. Psychedelics might make you think of some things more, see them in a different angle, but it won't fix you will or untied the knots by themselves. You should untied the knots and it usually needs professional help of some kind to guide you.

I lack the will. I consider myself very good at analyzing people who are willing to expose themselves and spot the knots. Can do it in myself, albeit slower. But I cannot really fix myself that easily. I am more or less the same guy, despite the self-psychoanalysis I have practiced through the years . Cause despite I learnt, and still learn, I have yet to put some stuff in practice. Got the rest, but not so strong will.

yep

it seems all drugs are bad with long term abuse, especially when used to mask another situation. You might have more luck with quitting everything and seek a non drug, inside solution.

If you do try and use psychedelics to find answers, nevertheless, then I say it would worth it to plan ahead and organise as better as you can...

Edited January 3, 2011 by mutant

[woof woof woof]

Zendog - your mind needs rest and needs to repair itself. so whatever you do you would want to take things slowly and build up.

I personally wouldnt use shrooms, tryptamines or other hallucinogens. Even meditation I would keep it within the comfort zone,... just so that you can relax.

And as you said, you dont want to drop out of society. Anything drastic will come as a shock to your already fragile situation. So prevent any drastic life situation. Learn to be in the moment. Learn to relax. Learn to breath easy.

But seriously,... stick with professional help! Find someone (a professional) that understands you. Somone that understands the fragility of your situation. I bet that there are plenty professionals with a spiritual background or interest.

I have had a difficult period myself. The best thing you can do is to simply focus on what is going on in your mind rather then to distract yourself with mind altering substances. If you indulge in them you will not really be working on letting things settle in the mind. Let all the emotions settle.

It's like with a breakup with a girlfriend,.... you dont want to sit still and dwell on the emotions. you need to get moving. Try excersize. Any kind of excersize. Cycling, swimming. Running. Challenge yourself. Get a buzz from getting your ass in motion. Your body will love you back for that.

When your body and mind are back in focus (strong again). You can do a journey into the innerspace again. ...... preferrably through meditation. SO BUILD YOURSELF UP. what are you waiting for. Get help if you find getting focussed again difficult. PROFESSIONAL HELP.

[woof woof woof]

sorry if I came off so strong on my first post. As mutant said. we need more background info. I meet many young people that have many shortcommings and sooo much potential, but lack the proper guidance in life and I myself was really off track, back some years ago. SO that is why I reacted so concernd.

btw,....all the other comments are very usefull.

what mutant said > drugs are shortterm. Only to break the head open.

. If you want to really explore your spiritual side, then simply read an insightfull book. < what kysem said!

and/or dicipline. For example, make promise to self to mediatate 2 times a day for a week. small challenges at first. Challenge yourself on all fronts.

find a (non drug) passion!

Attend some meditation classes instead of tryptamines - hahaha - or go fishing - I dont know what you like doing.... but juggle things up a bit, until you find what you like.

[Alchemica]

I'm sure many others who haven't posted here can relate to your post Zendog... I certainly can.

If it is a situation where change is needed and momentum is lacking, I think it is quite likely that substances will help. The only problem is that it may require a "spiritual crisis" before you get the momentum required. Then there is the problem of whether or not you have the time to dedicate to exploring your darkest thoughts, the will to change, whether the unconscious manifests neurotically/psychotically or in (as per society's demands) a constructive fashion and most importantly, whether or not you will make it through to a better, more wholly integrated place, or worse. That is, there is a risk of dropping out of society at a faster, and much more "spectacular" rate than you might if you continue to emotionally scar yourself without assistance - which is better, I have no idea.

(don't let the name discourage you)

I find Jungian schools of thought to be nourishing, you may want to look into them. If you listen to such music, emotional/vocal trance can take you to interesting places.

You may find low doses of tryps will open you to a space where your thoughts become lucid and accessible but resist the temptation to go deep (and too frequently) unless you have the supports around you to guide and provide non-judgmental company, sound off crazy ideas, and give you space when needed. When I was in a bad space, I thought all my solutions lay in a winchester of ether, little did I know how far down the abyss that could go.

I'd encourage you to exhaust psychosocial rehabilitation, mindfulness, cognitive behavioural therapy and medication (under the supervision of a professional where needed, just make sure you are well informed and in agreement prior to taking to any medication) first. Keep a diary of 10 good things you did today, what negative thoughts you felt in certain situations and how you can challenge them, break down plans into small pieces, dedicate time to sitting in a room and just being present: "the past has already been, the future is not yet here, what is here now is all that is in my mind" etc. Exercise is a great idea, too. Just play around and find what works. For me, documenting my thoughts in an abstract fashion and then rephrasing/challenging them in a positive manner at a later time has been helpful.

Social networks are as far as I'm concerned the most important aspect. Find people you can relate to, be yourself and try to avoid the temptation to deal with everything yourself. Even if it is just getting it off your mind and onto paper/music etc and then talking about it when you feel comfortable, that's a start.

Feel free to PM me if you ever need a chat, otherwise I'd encourage you to use SAB to get some different opinions and enrich you environment with anything creative/philosophy/venting/science. Get in the garden or go fishing.

I'm by no means a "healthy mental specimen" so take my words with caution. I sincerely hope you find yourself where you want to be in the near future.

All the best.

[kayesem]

Awesome reply kayesem!

Yeh, bit epic. Woops.

Great advice from everyone else too. You guys are alright

Oh, and i forgot to mention dancing. Have a fat stomp to some sweet tunes when you are alone at home (if possible).

The exercise gives you some nice brain drugs, and it's fun and brings you into the moment. I wish i could get into it more where i am, but the house is falling apart and needs re-stumping so everything bloody shakes around if you start moving.

Glad there is still a roof over my head tho, which is the main thing. Big chunk of the roof caved in in my friends room next to mine, lol. He's fine, don't worry : )

But seriously,... stick with professional help! Find someone (a professional) that understands you. Somone that understands the fragility of your situation. I bet that there are plenty professionals with a spiritual background or interest.

Easier said than done i think.

I have only ever gone through the support services that are available for free, and there's no way i could afford to pay for such a thing. But yeh, finding someone good just never happened for me. All just upper middle class people who had learned everything from a text book.

The people who helped the most were fairly random, but they had a better understanding and i felt it was at least worthwhile speaking with them because i knew they just cared, they didn't only care because it was their job and they were paid to care.

[Zendog]

Thanks very much for all your replies and advice.

To be honest I am not sure what to post here now. Like Kayesam, professional therapy has left me feeling worse. Yuppies with no life experience trying

(even with the best of intentions) to make me make sense of my life which is like nothing they can relate to.

I also work in Psych, know just about everything there is to know about psych drugs and dx and I find more often than not I am faced with the choice of keeping my mouth shut or encountering hostility and defensiveness when I do open it.

I don't want to pour out my specific woes here, its just tiresome and it always leaves me feeling stupid and achieves little.

I will say that I have had shit going on since childhood, my mid 20's polydrug binge was actually when life started opening up for me, when I first felt some real happiness and belonging, even if it was only chemical, I think it tought me "how" to be happy.

I am booked in to see an adhd specialist in a few weeks. Depression/anxiety etc going hand in hand with that condition. Not that I havn't been down this road, was once addicted to dexies.

I do keep fit, trouble is that you build a tolerance to the mood elevating effects of exercise just like a drug. Also I have "started again" so many times in my life, new cities, countries, medications, circles of friends, jobs, careers, relationships... I think I have pretty much worked out that the problem is me and not my environment. (At least I have had a varied if not happy life haha)

My biggest fear now is that I am 33 and I look back on my life and see nothing but chaos. I just seem to float along, so massively dysphoric one day then fine and happy the next and unable to even relate to the despairing internet postings I made the day before, it is like it was another person.

And all for no reason that my endless searching for an answer can come up with. No drugs, no alcohol, perfect diet, (even cut out gluten and casein to no avail ) exercise... being on the verge of resigning and walking out at work in the morning because I can't cope (and the demands on me are very mild) and by evening being happy and chatty.

I am definitely not psychotic, I may have something bipolar going on, The hardcore neroleptics or mood stabilizers could help me but I have always refused to take them because I fear the side effects.. but now I have a a greater fear that may drive me onto them..

I am scared of waking up one day as an old man with nothing but regrets. This is something new, before it was just "woe is me I feel so shit" type stuff, now its "Holy shit, this is my life and I am at the age where I should have things at least kind of sorted and I am not even close!"

I am fucking terrified now of the implications of the way my life is going and I desperately want to change things before its too late.

I am pretty much at the end.. This specialist will be my last crack at conventional treatments.

Anyway, thank you for reading this rather *whatever* post and thanks for the suggestion of reading books, I did start the Tibetan book of the dead once and liked it but didn't finish it... and I did get into buddhism for a bit and found that helpful too but disliked the religious feel of going to temple so it kind of fell by the wayside.

Jung is awesome and so is sartre, I think my problem my be at least in part an existential one... how to put philosophy into practice is my biggest challenge.

If anyone can suggest some titles that are worth reading that would be a big help I think.

Thanks again for taking the time to reply, I really appreciate it.

[bluejay700777]

Hey Zendog I haven't read it in years but all I can remember is that Camus' 'The Myth of Sisyphus' addressed existential angst at its worst and I found it really uplifting. Unfortunately I lent my copy out and never got it back. If you haven't read it then I would recommend that one.

[woof woof woof]

Zendog. I thought you were much younger. I am also 33. Now that I have read the other postings and your last response and had the time to think about your situation I can see where you are at right now.

I think many of us here can say that we have or had personal struggels. I sure had my share of problems.(ALL kinds of troubles! A long list of them.)

I think you will mellow out with time, because I see you have a clear picture of yourself with what's going on the inside. All I can think off is that you need more burdons. So whatever you do,... don't overdo anything.

One thing I don't understand...you said > "A tolerance to the mood elevating effects of excersize?" I think people that excersize a bit seriously will say that they keep getting a kick from it everytime. I think even a minimal warming up induces a nice feeling.

In anycase ZenD... all the best! Hope you can find that peace of mind.

[botanika]

This is just my personal experience but the only times in my life I've achieved significant change for the better is when I have moved locations, jobs or friends. Meeting new, and preferably successful and happy people, is one of the most inspiring and often brave things you can do.

[kayesem]

My biggest fear now is that I am 33 and I look back on my life and see nothing but chaos. I just seem to float along, so massively dysphoric one day then fine and happy the next and unable to even relate to the despairing internet postings I made the day before, it is like it was another person.

And all for no reason that my endless searching for an answer can come up with. No drugs, no alcohol, perfect diet, (even cut out gluten and casein to no avail ) exercise... being on the verge of resigning and walking out at work in the morning because I can't cope (and the demands on me are very mild) and by evening being happy and chatty.

I am definitely not psychotic, I may have something bipolar going on, The hardcore neroleptics or mood stabilizers could help me but I have always refused to take them because I fear the side effects.. but now I have a a greater fear that may drive me onto them..

Yeh, i am not an expert, but that sounds a lot like bipolar. wiki - bipolar

Sounds harsh dude. Seems like you've been active and tried many things to help yourself, including self medication.

If you do not yet practice meditation regularly, that is the final thing i would recommend for you. I can understand you not wanting to get on 'hardcore' meds, and definitely think that you should exhaust all other avenues first. I don't know what the side effects of mood stabilizers are, but it might be worth a go to see how it effects you personally because i think most meds have a whole list of possible things but everyone tends to experience something different.

I am scared of waking up one day as an old man with nothing but regrets. This is something new, before it was just "woe is me I feel so shit" type stuff, now its "Holy shit, this is my life and I am at the age where I should have things at least kind of sorted and I am not even close!"

I am fucking terrified now of the implications of the way my life is going and I desperately want to change things before its too late.

That's a pretty normal thing for anyone man. Some people take longer to find direction in life than others, and people can change directions many times.

Don't fall into a victim trap and decide that there is no hope. There is no need to put so much pressure on yourself either dude. It's good to have a kick in the arse every now and then to help you get your shit into gear, and you seem to be at a point where you give yourself a good kicking.

Ideally, you "should" have some kind of order to things in your life situation by now, but don't fool yourself into thinking that this is an ideal world, or that you have had an ideal life and therefore "should" be sorted.

Far as i see it, your priority is to get yourself levelled out enough to have some kind of solid foundation inside of you. You have obviously been searching for it and i wish you all the best with finding the answer to sorting out your body, heart, mind, soul and spirit, and having the confidence in yourself to do what you want and get where you want to be.

So time has not been wasted up until now, you have been doing the only sensible thing AFAIK. The fact that you really want to change means that you are a lot closer than you think IMO.

I am pretty much at the end.. This specialist will be my last crack at conventional treatments.

Anyway, thank you for reading this rather *whatever* post and thanks for the suggestion of reading books, I did start the Tibetan book of the dead once and liked it but didn't finish it... and I did get into buddhism for a bit and found that helpful too but disliked the religious feel of going to temple so it kind of fell by the wayside.

Jung is awesome and so is sartre, I think my problem my be at least in part an existential one... how to put philosophy into practice is my biggest challenge.

If anyone can suggest some titles that are worth reading that would be a big help I think.

Thanks again for taking the time to reply, I really appreciate it.

 

Yeh, sorry for being a bit lazy before. Here's a linky for ya (and anyone else, highly recommended reading and practice)

- The Psychedelic Experience (free online version)

A manual based on the Tibetan Book of the Dead, By Timothy Leary, Ph.D., Ralph Metzner, Ph.D., & Richard Alpert, Ph.D.

This version of THE TIBETAN BOOK OF THE DEAD is dedicated to ALDOUS HUXLEY, July 26, 1894 - November 22, 1963, with profound admiration and gratitude.

My experience is limited, but when i tried it out for myself, the effect was so powerful that although i planned to repeat it one day and try to do better, i have not felt a great need or urgency to do so.

It's basically a practical guide to tripping and meditation. Get yourself as familiar as possible with the text, then take a medium to high dose of either LSD or shrooms and do your best to remember the text and attempt to utilize the teaching, which is basically to attain and hold the state of the 'clear light' for as long as possible, or however long you feel comfortable with.

A trusted 'trip sitter' is advised incase you forget the instructions or you get lost. Shrooms are recommended over LSD, and i used shrooms for my attempt (very very high dose, probably a bit too much) and in general i much prefer them. They are somewhat bouncy, a lot smoother, softer and kinder than acid IMO which can at times be very harsh and too stuck 'in your own head'. For the purpose of the guide though, they will each of of equal help as a tool for the practice, i believe.

The end result of the guide, if used correctly and successfully, is pretty much a state that you might find yourself in after having practiced meditation for say 10 years or so, as well as being similar to dying, only you get to be reborn soon after.

My own experience basically ended in what AFAIK was the 'clear light'. Not only was it amazing to play with, but the feelings it left me with were very much appreciated.

Those feelings were - absolute wholeness, completeness, awareness, peace, and rest. True rest like i have never known. It was like i got to die and take a real break from my life and all concerns and truly rest and recharge. Only of course, i got to come back safe and sound afterwards. By the end, i just had tears of pure joy and gratitude pouring down my face.

Don't want to make it sound all roses. The first part of my experience was somewhat of a nightmare, and while it was mostly my own fault for not fully reading the text which gives instructions on how to avoid getting stuck there, it is a risk none the less.

Can't hurt to have a read over it anyway, but for gods sake don't be hasty and stupid like me and start tripping total balls before having finished reading the instructions. This is what you were first asking about, and you just might be ready for it and it might be of lasting benefit.. Entirely your call though of course. I realise that some of this might sound a bit 'escapist' or whatever, but to me it's more a matter of rememberance and recognition.

That's my 2 cents : )

[hutch]

Those feelings were - absolute wholeness, completeness, awareness, peace, and rest. True rest like i have never known. It was like i got to die and take a real break from my life and all concerns and truly rest and recharge. Only of course, i got to come back safe and sound afterwards. By the end, i just had tears of pure joy and gratitude pouring down my face.

That's my 2 cents : )

 

Mate, thanks heaps for that link...I have read nearly half of it and it is fascinating.......you describe just what I think most of us are looking for...I just need to find me a good guide cause I know my mind wanders badly so I may struggle to do away with the game. I'm going to give that one a try....

Keep your chin up there Zendog.....some much smarter people than I have given you some good advise so I won't bore you with more other than to say there are a lot of us out there feeling just like you describe...

Had a shitter of a year myself and got to experience anxiety attacks for the first time in my life...they fuck you up...still struggling to come up with the right meds as I reckon they all make me feel lousy.......

Carefully controlled psychedelics is most under rated IMO for the treatment of depression....we are just to quick to grab for the pharmaceuticals...

[qualia]

i found the words of dogen to be extremely beneficial some time ago when i was experiencing "issues"

theres an online free translation of the nishijima/cross translation which is one of the better translations

at the numata centre (.numatacenter.com/default.aspx?MPID=81)

it requires some thought and may not make sense in places,

but soto zen is a blissful philosophy i've found

buddhism in general really,

if i sound preachy i apologise in advance

best,

[nabraxas]

take 6 months off & go traveling in India, China, S.E. Asia, South America etc.

go & see how most ov the world lives.

don't worry about exploring your spiritual side, just be.

i'm serious.

[Magicdirt]

I think my problem my be at least in part an existential one... how to put philosophy into practice is my biggest challenge.

 

Sometime we can just think too much.

A less intelligent person would be less likely to dwell on things and analyse everything for deeper meaning and a lot of the time they are happier as a result. No brains and just as happy without them.

Have you tried analysing your self talk, someone with an active mind (such as yours seems to be) can have a lot of self talk and if circumstances lead that way, your self talk can become biased to some of the more negative stuff.

A good place to start can be with mantras that you tell yourself over and over ie Everyday in every way I get better and better.

If you are of reasonable intelligence or greater and maybe having a shitty day you will more than likely have a voice inside you come back with something negative ie "This is crap everything is fucked, I don't believe that shit"

The next step is to acknowledge that negative doubting Thomas part of your psyche and turn the volume down on the bastard, he'll still be there when he's needed as scepticism is important for self protection , but you consciously decide when to listen and when not to.

Gradually you will notice things you tell yourself that need the volume turned down and you can replace them with mantras that will help.

We are gifted with a brain akin to supercomputer but no-one gives us the operating manual for the software, that's part of our journey in life to master ourselves and our thoughts.

I've said in other posts and I'll say it again

Your mind will go where you direct it, or it will bound around aimlessly like a monkey in a fruit shop, responding to each stimuli as it presents itself.

We have an advantage over monkeys in that we have conscious control over our thoughts, it doesn't have to be a stimuli-response reflex.

I think therefore I am - in control

[∂an]

take 6 months off & go traveling in India, China, S.E. Asia, South America etc.

go & see how most ov the world lives.

don't worry about exploring your spiritual side, just be.

i'm serious.

 

good advice, I would second this. sometimes in our 1st world playpen's its easy to lose the exhilaration of just being alive - people living more traditional lifestyles around the world are still very much in touch with this lust for life, despite the hardships they go through.

having something in your life that you can be proud of, and strive for, is also a big help. e.g. sign up for a course in something you have always wanted to do, volunteer at homeless shelters, help other people. eating and living healthy is very important too.

I went through a pretty tough period about 12 months ago and these things helped me. I tried using tryptamines, but they only made my anxiety and depression worse, even at low doses.

[woof woof woof]

VIPASSNA << Zendog...... if you do that 5 or 10 days..... you will be completely centred again, have more breaktroughs then any dope can give. Everything will become clear again.