Hyperemesis in long term Cannabis users

[Ethos]

Hey ya'll

A friend of mine has been using cannabis for a few years now (about 2 or 3) and has recently been waking up and vomiting, convulsing and sweating so bad he has had to take long baths and showers every morning.

This starts at about 6 O'clock when he wakes, and this has been preventing him from going to his job which is part of his apprenticeship.

But the thing is at around 10 O'clock he is fine, until the next morning where it starts over again. Also after having observing him over the last few weeks some mornings aren't as bad as others and they get pretty bad.

So after a while of wondering what was causing this we stumbled upon this, Hyperemesis

So 'Hyperemesis' which means 'excessive vomiting' (Greek hyper-, meaning excessive, and emesis, meaning vomiting)

'Hyperemesis Gravidarum' is a severe form of morning sickness which causes excessive pregnancy-related nausea and/or vomiting that prevents adequate intake of food and fluids.

'Cannabinoid Hyperemesis' is a previously undiagnosed disorder which occurs in susceptible individuals and is characterised by ongoing cannabis abuse over many years, cyclical episodes of vomiting and compulsive bathing behaviour.The hyperemesis is delayed for several years prior to the onset of illness, and for several weeks or months with a return to regular cannabis use following a period of abstinence. Cessation of cannabis is curative.

This disorder is characterised by:

1.A history of several years of cannabis abuse prior to the onset of hyperemesis in susceptible individuals.

2.The hyperemesis will follow a cyclical pattern every few weeks or months, often for many years, against a background of regular cannabis abuse.

3.Cessation of cannabis leads to cessation of the hyperemesis in the presence of a negative urine drug screen for cannabinoids.

6.A return to cannabis use will see a return of the hyperemesis many weeks or months later.

5.The patient will compulsively bathe i.e. will take multiple hot showers or baths during the acute phase of the illness in an attempt to quell the hyperemesis.

The patho-physiology is as follows:

a.Susceptible patients develop a hypersensitivity to cannabis following several years of exposure.

b.Cannabis has a long half-life of weeks or months in the body. Regular use is accumulative and this gives rise to toxicity in the hypersensitive patient.

c.It has been shown that cannabis delays gastric emptying and in the toxic patient this may lead to gastric stasis and hence hyperemesis.

d.The patient may compulsively bathe because of the presence of the cannabinoid receptors in the limbic system of the brain. The toxicity may disrupt the thermoregulatory systems of the hypothalmus and this disruption might settle with hot bathing or showering.

Now my friend has all these symptoms and has talked to his doc about it to and she thinks we're pretty bang on with his self diagnosis, so i had a talk to my friend about quitting the ole' Mary Jane and he is really sad to see her go.

He really wants to know if there has been any good research done on hyperemesis cures other then complete cessation of Cannabis, He also wants to know the communities thoughts on the matter.

Cheers everyone,

Ethen

[ThunderIdeal]

gastric emptying hey... this is pretty interesting. sounds like your friend needs to give it away or cut right back.

[Bread Filter]

This is the latest Hyperemesis thread from the Cannabis Discussion forum at Bluelight. Hope it can provide some help.

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=521589&highlight=hyperemesis

Edited December 2, 2010 by Bread Filter

[ThunderIdeal]

FWIW this is more than likely what i used to go through, and although i often felt on the verge of vomiting i rarely did. my only method for dealing with it was to tough it out on a daily basis.

[Ethos]

Well Thunderideal that is what i feel like when i smoke over a fair period of time, and i also think he might need to give it up.

But me and him will do some bio assays over the next couple of weeks to find a schedule of smoking where there is no return to hyperemesis while he can still enjoy it on allocated days.

And thanks for that link BreadFilter now i have some new reading material for tonight

[Bread Filter]

Well Thunderideal that is what i feel like when i smoke over a fair period of time, and i also think he might need to give it up.

But me and him will do some bio assays over the next couple of weeks to find a schedule of smoking where there is no return to hyperemesis while he can still enjoy it on allocated days.

And thanks for that link BreadFilter now i have some new reading material for tonight

 

No worries. In case your wondering switching to a even a top end Vape like the Volcano won't solve the problem. No idea about edibles though.

[ThunderIdeal]

yep, find a happy medium

although

while i never found a way around it, i never actually knew for instance that it had to do with the stomach not being emptied. being enlightened by science your friend might be able to figure out a true workaround involving eating times and diet and so forth. i'm interested to hear what you guys come up with.

[∂an]

I heard about this syndrome on The Grow Report forum:

Hey all, I just want to start by saying that like a lot of you, i have been a massive fan of weed for years, mmmmmmmm......MJ.

As a lot of you know i've been pretty ill for a long time now (11 years of pure struggle)

I have been to hospital 150+ times and had every kind of test you can think of, all of which have shown nothing at all (its a stomach problem i have)

Anyways, a strange chain of events recently led me to discover a new condition called "Cannabinoid Hyperemesis"

http://www.mydr.com.au/addictions/ch...ulsive-bathing

http://www.labmeeting.com/paper/2861...ulsive-bathing

All of the symptoms described are EXACTLY what i have been suffering from. (yes, the 10 baths a day too)

It's a condition that affects only 1% of heavy users (i have been smoking about 6-10 spliffs a day for about 16 years now)

It's basically where the deposits of THC/CBD in your body become toxic due to overuse, it starts to affect a regulatory gland that controls your stomach motility and causes a lot of bother to your digestive system. (theres a touch more to it than that but i'll leave those interested to look it up for themselves)

This condition was discovered in Australia in 2002 so is very new, a lot of people don't believe it or think its some kind of government propaganda (M.E was fake before it was discovered, as was the common cold).......more cases are coming to light and theres proof of the condition clearing up when sufferers stop using MJ.....and returning when they began using again.

I gave up toking 4 days ago and theres already definite signs of improvement (im usually ill daily to some degree) i can't believe it.....i always thought the herb was helping and never wanted to think it could actually be the cause.

It seems that if i give up for long enough to completely clear my system (2-3 months), i SHOULD be able to toke small amounts, as long as it doesn't end up "Chronic use" again......even if i have to quit forever, i get my life back (my stomach problem has basically dictated my life for 11 years now) so i can't ask for more tbh.

I'm gonna continue to post my progress in this thread for anyone interested.

Im in no way bad mouthing weed or saying anyone should quit, weed is NOT the devil i have just suffered so much for so long that i want to help spread the word of this condition.......just to educate, if it helps just 1 person from not suffering like i have then i'll be happy

We all work very differently and what might not affect you, may affect me (as this apparently is) so please keep your reply's respectful (remember, this is my life we're talking about here)

Wish me luck y'all.

 

The following response in that thread echoes my own views on this:

"What we take too much pleasure from will eventually destroy us" don't know if they are the right words but you get my drift.

Anything done to excess for any length of time will eventually cause pain.

Even the above quoted coeliac diesease maybe due to just eating too mcuh wheat day in day out so that eventually the body starts to reject the gluten it just can't cope with the overload.

That indeed may be happening in your case with cannabis.

 

In this case durastically reducing intake was an effective measure against the symptoms – although I think he was smoking a very large amount of herb, 6 to 10 spliffs a day for 16 years!! No wonder.... anything in excess is going to f%#k you up.

Ethan, is the intake of your friend similar or different to this case?

[Ethos]

Cheers for that kalika,

my friends MJ intake would've been average $50 (3.5grm) through a bong a day (depending on what the situation is i.e. get togethers, special occasions, pay day) for around 3 years.

[Bread Filter]

although I think he was smoking a very large amount of herb, 6 to 10 spliffs a day for 16 years!! No wonder.... anything in excess is going to f%#k you up.

 

Different substances affect different people in different ways. I have mates who smoke 100+ cones a day.

[∂an]

Different substances affect different people in different ways. I have mates who smoke 100+ cones a day.

 

and how do they fair with that habit? you have to expect some negative consequences from such high consumption.

but in a way your right, that thread does seem to indicate there are predisposing factors for cannabis hyperemesis.

Edited December 2, 2010 by kalika

[∂an]

Cheers for that kalika,

my friends MJ intake would've been average $50 (3.5grm) through a bong a day (depending on what the situation is i.e. get togethers, special occasions, pay day) for around 3 years.

 

sounds like a similar quantity then I guess. will be interesting to hear the results of your friends bioassays. good luck!

[Bread Filter]

and how do they fair with that habit? you have to expect some negative consequences from such high consumption.

but in a way your right, that thread does seem to indicate there are predisposing factors for cannabis hyperemesis.

 

They have been at it for 18 years, have a constant heavy chesty cough at all times and have had multiple bouts of Pneumonia. Amazingly they still won't buy a vapouriser.

They don't report any hyperemesis symptoms though.

[t st tantra]

so this could be called a symptom of abuse rather than of use.

just your body telling you you are overdoing it?

saponins are little considered in use of the erb,maybe try smoking less through water?

t s t .

[planthelper]

we have disscussed this topic once, i think at chill space, in connection with a study??!

one member said, they suffer from it aswell.

what i have heard, is that some people have the slightest morning sickness, but aswell relate that to pot use.

some pot smokers say that after a bout of diarreha (classic IBS) the next smoke is stronger, so maybe some self cleansing action takes place, regardles in which direction...

[FancyPants]

One of my friends was having recurrent morning queasiness type problems and we both thought she must've been up Duff Alley, but nope. She went to a doctor and all they said was to stop smoking (cigs, Doc would've flipped his shit had she mentioned MJ). She must've been particularly sensitive as she wasn't anywhere near as much as me yet I only ever got minor issues like that which I couldn't put down to anything else. Come to think of it, since I've been on a 3month break I haven't had any even minor problems anymore. Mine was probably exacerbated by severe constipation from codeine abuse though too. Gee being fulla shit (who'd have thought that of me? ) and having a constant need to eat even when your stomach won't empty feels awesome... No wonder I got migraines stemming from diet - according to a naturopath who even guessed where my migraine was located before I told her.

[Sassy]

Hey Guys ,

Believe it , it's true. It's effing horrible

I used to suffer from bong bath and bucket syndrome for about 15 yrs . Started in my early 20's lasted to late 30's .

The nausea would occur daily although acute epoisodes where I vomited or felt like sitting in shower all day (or 2-3 days) happened monthly or more frequently .

I did go to gastro doctor (about 20 yrs ago) early on who did several tests which found nothing particuarly wrong , except for low gastric motility . Doctor told me he had another patient with same symptoms who was a heavy weed smoker . I also attended naturopath , accupuncturist and TCM dude but didn't work .

At this stage I was smoking around 60 large bubblys a day. I tryed cutting back managed about thirty cones a day then , but not much difference .

I took medicine daily which improved gastric motility as well as IM injected anti nausea drug during acute episodes all to no avail.

Being an addict I wasn't prepared to accept that the weed was doing this as I didn't know anyone else who suffered similarly . I thought it was a wowser conspiracy against me having fun .

About ten years ago A friend who was a doctor gave me some info they downloaded from internet describing the illness , at which time I started to accept that the weed was doing this .

I considered this and thought the -ve from the sickness outweighed any +ve from the smoking , better do something about it . I reduced incrementally .

So to cut a long story short the number of cones I can smoke ( these days I vaporize ) in a day is 8 ,ie 4 sessions x 2 cones without fear of illness . 10 is pushing my luck and 12 I would likely be sick again in a couple of weeks.

Interestingly (to all you bongheads ) I get far more stoned from 8 vaps a day than I ever did from 60 a day . Less is more . Better to go up and down than never have it leave your system.

[∂an]

So to cut a long story short the number of cones I can smoke ( these days I vaporize ) in a day is 8 ,ie 4 sessions x 2 cones without fear of illness . 10 is pushing my luck and 12 I would likely be sick again in a couple of weeks.

Interestingly (to all you bongheads ) I get far more stoned from 8 vaps a day than I ever did from 60 a day . Less is more . Better to go up and down than never have it leave your system.

 

glad to hear you've got a handle on it now man, from 60 to 8 sessions a day is a big reduction. what happens when you go cold turkey? I've found the thought of it is much worse than the actual withdrawl symptoms... although it sounds like you are using cannabis to treat existing physiological symptoms.

[ThunderIdeal]

unless i missed something the physiological symptoms were from the weed in that story, because sassy suffered cannabis hyperemesis (i'm pretty certain that i did too).

even though a normal person could treat nausea with weed, us rare cannabis hyperemesis sufferers become really nauseous on a daily basis due to long periods of heavy use. sorry if i'm stating the obvious.

pity this wasn't very well understood and still isn't widely known. it always annoyed me that other heavy smokers were free of the symptoms i described to them.

[Sassy]

what happens when you go cold turkey? I've found the thought of it is much worse than the actual withdrawl symptoms...

 

Correct . I'm 44 now , started when I was 18 . I would have only missed about a month of days in 26 yrs . If you keep occupied you won't notice it , but to think of quitting is very hard .

It's not like quitting fags , where you sting for one constantly , and when you sleep you dream about it . Weed is habitual , not that physically addictive ( for me)

pity this wasn't very well understood and still isn't widely known. it always annoyed me that other heavy smokers were free of the symptoms i described to them.

 

Exactly . this is what made it hard for me . I knew others who smoked far more than me who have no sickness problems , this is why I didn't believe it was the weed . But it seems it was .

[ThunderIdeal]

i knew it was the weed because i switched between heavy smoker and non smoker quite a few times. didn't stop me from switching back to heavy smoker all those times but due to the intermissions my symptoms were just horrible, not fucking horrible.

i actually never picked it as digestion-related, maybe because i knew it was from smoking. always thought of the diaphragm or the deep part of the lungs.

[∂an]

unless i missed something the physiological symptoms were from the weed in that story, because sassy suffered cannabis hyperemesis (i'm pretty certain that i did too).

 

No I understand what hyperemesis is. Guess I just assumed such heavy use must have initially began from using cannabis for a reason such as treating nausea as you suggest, or glaucoma etc. Just find it hard to understand how people end up smoking such enormous amounts of a plant that is so much more rewarding in moderation...

[ThunderIdeal]

habit, inclusion of tobacco, boredom, social ritual, love of weed.

have never once been able to moderate when using :shrug:

[LikeAshesWeFade]

Interestingly (to all you bongheads ) I get far more stoned from 8 vaps a day than I ever did from 60 a day . Less is more . Better to go up and down than never have it leave your system.

 

^^^ This is so true! I've managed to cut down from an average of 30 a day to roughly 6 - 12 bubblies a week and omg.. the effects are soo much more enjoyable and the way it should be, releiving massive amounts of tension/pain, stress and wow.. The munchies!! I never used to get munchies when I was a heavy user, I actually would lose weight when smoking MJ heavily. Now since cutting them down by a massive amount and stopping cigarettes I am a bloody eating machine ESPECIALLY when having a little MJ when offered.

I used to freak out and go into a rage if I could not score MJ.. thinkin people are sittin on their arse stoned as hell not wanting to help anyone out with some, friends or family. So soooo glad I am over the whole "chasing" thing, now I'll take it if it's offered and I bloody enjoy it! Intense Euphoria, Intoxication and absolutely pain free!! You are 100% right though Sassy, less is better and it's DEFINITELY better to go up, then come down and cleanse your body a little between smoking.

I honestly don't think I could have cut down to this amount without the use of Wild Lettuce, Quit Pot mix etc. I know Wild Lettuce does alot for me and as for the rest they may have been more placebo (mind tricking) than anything but they will all work some way or another! I have tried to quit cold turkey twice in my 12yrs of smoking it and hell no.. I would never go about it that way ever again as you will relapse every single time! Legal herbs (without synthetic sprays) have been my saviour and now I can enjoy MJ as it should be enjoyed! For anyone interested in quitting/cutting down their MJ intake I personally recommend the use of 5-HTP 100mg capsules with smoking a little Wild Lettuce in a pipe/joint to allow the mind to calm itself and relax without the need of MJ each time your stressed, I personally find it 10X better than some Doctor prescribing F**KING Vallium.. YUCK!! Also a little Kanna or Kava I think would really help too with mood swings, anxiety etc.

PEACE GUYS!!

Gregg

[mutant]

very fucking interesting.

PH>

I have had single mornings when shitting was a bit diarrhea-styled, stomach a bit messed up, that's all, in what I thought was a consequence of smoking too much for too late at night or for many days in a row. This was pretty rare, and it almost vanished as was exposed to more and more quantity per day and getting used to it. Don't get this a lot anymore though... I remember thinking that might also be an effect from tobbacco smoking and lots of alcohol, some beer-plenty mights.

It makes some sense that that a plant that is regarded an ultimate anti-nausea drug can also induce it, when someone abuses it for years.

Also, pot daily abuse seriously messes with appetite a lot. When you smoke in moderation, even daily, appetite increases [you have regular munchies]. When you smoke all the time {AKA never stop rolling another joint once you smoke the first of the day] the appetite is fucked.

I am lucky to have a super good [read fast] metabolism. I am able to eat quite a lot after a long session of smoking late at night and then fall to bed top sleep with no problem in metabolism, sleep or stomach.

It was also interesting to see other reason apart from psychological or other reasons for people to quit or lower their intake. Despite you lowering the dose was kind-of obligatory, the reports are very interesting.

Moderation is key. Fuck the ancient greeks always said 'Pan metron ariston' but I thought they're only party-ruiners. I know better know

In regards with the OP, I think 3,5 grams a day for someone very new to the sport 2-3 years is very high! People who use more then 1,5 gram a day should be able to tell they're abusing and this is not really healhty.

Despite having used cannabis abusively, I still get the very minimum side-effects - which are not few btw or harmless.

Why do people smoke so much? Ecstacy. Pleazure. Music. Creation. Habit. Ritual. Cannabis can bring on musical , creative or philosophical revelations, even for an abusive user. Pot is psychedelic too.

Other than those more hedonistic reasons for people smoking so much is the usual reason for people abusing a drug: Escapism.

Edited December 31, 2010 by mutant