Extraction Chems...

[devils_cactus]

Hey I need some methyl hydrate to extract a legal chem. from a legal plant.

I heard you could get it OTC...anyone know where in Sydney?

Peace

[Fenris]

You should be able to get it from any chemical supply outlet. Who knows, you could be using it to produce home made biodiesel for the old Merc. A winchester of lab grade will probably set you back $70 or so.

And making biodiesel is completely legal.

[Guest d0tb0y]

methyl hydrate?

that's just methanol.

in terms of chemical extractions, ethanol and methanol are very similar - if it calls for methanol, chances are you can get away with ethanol if you add twice as much, since ethanol dissolves less alkaloids/garbage than methanol does. I'd also suggest this because I disagree with the consumption of an extract made with a known poison. That crap will send you blind and/or kill you. Read MSDS's, and don't say we didnt tell you..

[devils_cactus]

check the link...

http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=10100

I'm not very chemically minded...

where can i get ethanol?

will it work for the above recipe?

[Braitok]

You can produce 98% pure ethanol at home at little cost ($1.80/750ml). The setup is mildly expensive. However I would be very careful with wormwood if I were you. Thujone, the active ingredient, can cause serious CNS damage or even death.

Ethanol can certainly be used to extract Thujone from artemsia absinthum (wormwood), hence absinthe, the alcholic beverage.

If you need more details PM me.

Priority Warning:

While using pure ethanol to extract essential oils is reasonable, NEVER drink pure ethanol. Most liqueurs and spirits are not more than 80 proof (40% ethanol by volume). Water should be added to the extraction medium 3 part for every 2 (minimum) before consumption.

Priority Warning:

Thujone is a poison. You have been warned.

[smogs]

note that its illegal to distill ethanol in australia.

what about methalated spirits... thats 95%ethanol and 5% methanol i thought

???

[planthelper]

but a good drink would only contain the azeotropic compounds of thujon!

so that's a different ball game (ignoring that, once chloroform was added to absinth)

lions ear = leonotis leonorus, behaves the same way, btw...

[Guest electro]

herbalistics has an absinthe essential flavour/oils flavour thingin at their website to add to vodka .. looks like theyvbe already done the hard work

[Vanda]

Puke wrote: "You can produce 98% ethanol at home".

I'd really like to know your secret. From what I've read you can, wait let me refrase that, it's possible to produce say 94.5 or maybe 95% ethanol at home if you good and have the right gear. and probably at higher cost too, as you'll have to work at higher(?) reflux ratio, which makes it more expensive. From what I gathered, it's possible to atchieve better results only under vacume?

Anyway, for those interested and that way inclined, there's an excellent site to check:

www.homedistiller.org

cheers

Vanda

[Vanda]

Sorry Puck.

cheers

Vanker

[devils_cactus]

my ethanol that i currently have at home is 96% ethanol, will i need stronger?

[smogs]

96% is plenty strong

generally if one was to home distill i believe you usually get around 80-85%

on the note of absinth its illegal to sell it above a certain thujone content so i presume the flavouring would have to have a content lower than that too?

and there are MANY ingredients added to absinth, alot of which are also thought to add to the effects

i think www.erowid.org have a few recipies

p.s. u would want the otehr ingredients if you have ever tasted wormwood... just the smell of it makes me feel sick YUCK

[devils_cactus]

I am not planing to make absinth...

See my link above

[bloodbob]

DON'T USE MENTHANOL OR ANYTHING OTHER SOURCE OF ALCOHOL THAT YOU DON'T BUY AT A BOTTLESHOP ( well other then homebrew ). Unless your planning on removing ALL the solvent. ( which they do in this recipe )

Sorry about the yelling but I think I should stress this for people who aren't educated on the effect of methanol.

[ 06. February 2005, 22:06: Message edited by: bloodbob ]

[Plant Pimp]

There is another well known effect of Methanol that you should be warned about.

FIRE!!!!

Don't burn your house down! In that recipe for 'Thuge' they just put a pot of Methanol right on the stove!!! It might be safer to let it evaporate over a few days outside or with a water bath if on stovetop. It isn't just the end product that you have to be worried about hurting yourself with, the process might be even more dangerous!

I thought that the neurotoxicity of the old absinthe was more related to lead contamination than the wormwood itself?

[folias]

In Australia they put some optical blue stuff in otc methanol...can't recall what it is called, but this element makes methanol impractical for any utilisation because of this impurity.

(btw, in N.Z. methanol which you can buy OTC IS blue... this does not deter the hardcore alcholics from drinking the stuff however, which I have witnessed one prepare into a very interesting concoction!)

Julian.

[Skulking Lurker]

Drinking methanol? Now that's hard core!

[Guest d0tb0y]

I have in the past (and will in short future) produce 80% alcohol in a still that is to be honest, really crap... it's not hard to get pure alcohol, at that stage you'd just be using some damprid to suck up the leftover water leaving you with 98-99% (above azeotrope)

For extractions you're really better off brewing/stilling your own that way you KNOW it doesnt contain methanol, MIBK denaturants and colorings, plus you get free alcohol that you can flavour and mature for fun

[cookie-monster]

Couldn't resist throwing my 2 cents worth in. Methanol 99% pure, water under 1%, is available OTC from fuel suppliers in 20L drums for $33. No blue colouring. Thank the drag racers for this one. Just imagine how fast impurities would gum up their engines. Methanol is striking fear into peoples hearts because lots of people have died drinking it. Most of these people ingested it either through poor technique in making spirits or by drinking methylated spirits. This is why they no longer contain methanol. Whilst this is true its LD50 is a lot higher than many things you are in daily contact with (and almost certainly your desired compound). Shit water is toxic at a high enough dosage. There is a big difference between drinking the shit and coming into contact with trace amounts.

Dri-rite and the like are Calcium chloride, which is unsuitable for drying alcohols as it forms a complex with them. You need magnesium sulphate (epson salts). You must first dry them in the oven on high for a couple of hours or until the glass like appearance has changed to a chalky white. Use a pyrex dish and stir occasionally to avoid big clump formation. Another clue to when its dry is that the clumps stop forming. For extractions simply filtering of the MgSO4 afterwards will surfice, no need to redistil.

Methanol is more polar than ethanol and generally a stronger extraction solvent. There is more to this than just the solubility of your desired compound in the solvent. The ability of the solvent to break down cellular structures and free the compounds is also critical.

In developing a strategy for extracting a compound it is likely that the most successful proceedure will involve using the strongest solvent that your compound will tolerate.

If you find references that state methanol was used I would dive straight in and use it. Acetone is a far superior solvent for plant tissue extractions but it can be harsh on some compounds and a little non-specific.

[Guest d0tb0y]

there's no need to use methanol when ethanol will do the job just fine. for the average gardener wanting to extract stuff, telling them to play around with methanol is just not a good idea..

Did not think of this but yes, CaCl2 will form a complex. On the other hand, make sure that no MgSo4 remains in the alcohol of choice because i could be wrong but i believe i remember reading that MgSo4 reacts amines. (not sure if this applies to phenethylamines or not, but it -is- an amine.)

[Braitok]

I have a copper still head of exceptional design. 98% ethanol is very easy to achieve if you have the right equipment and use the right method.

Anyone interested in this PM me.

It costs about about $24 to make 5 litres.

Methylated Spirits contains methanol. If you don't intent to drink the stuff I suppose that is fine. Or you could distil the methanol out of the spirits but I would be worried that not all the methanol would come out of solution.

There are undoubtedly other undesirable additives so you would then have to follow this up by then distilling out the ethanol. Note, before you start, you should dilute the spirits in 2 parts of water to 1 part spirits.

The boiling point of methanol of 65C and ethanol is 78C (with water at 100C of course).

It might be cheaper to use methylated spirits than to ferment sugar to make an ethanol wash.

But, I will repeat, it is very easy to achieve 98% ethanol if you have the right equipment, legalities aside.

[devils_cactus]

This may seem like a weird/stupid question but what about vodka?

Can i get some cheap strong vodka and evaporate it in the sun leaving the ethanol?

[woof woof woof]

I hope you understand Devilscactus that if you leave vodka in the sun, the first thing that will evapourate is the ethanol, leaving you with whatever evapourates the least quickest.

So yeah you can evap off the ethanol,... but you got to catch the vapours and cool them off sufficiently so it condenses.

[cookie-monster]

No its the other way around CaCl2 forms complexes with amines and alcohols. MgSO4 is the OTC product of choice for amines and alcohols.

I had a chat a few years back with the manager of Ace Chemicals in Adelaide regarding the likelyhood of distiling pure EtOH from methylated spirits. He assured me that I would not achieve a separation of the MIBK from the EtOH even with fractional distilation. He told me that the industrial grades of methylated spirits contain 2% MIBK to make them unpotable and that there was no MeOH in these grades.

[devils_cactus]

hmm, so i guess the question boils down to this: will there be any bad side effects from making my 'Thuge' out of ethanol?