Clone or Strain?

[Teotzlcoatl]

http://www.salviasource.org/forum/salvia-in-general/they%27re-not-%27strains%27!!!/msg31028/#msg31028

Look the way you would have a "strain" of Salvia divinorum would be if you took your Salvia divinorum plants and breed them, through sexual reproduction and then sold the SEEDS as "your" strain of Salvia divinorum. This results in a closely related group of multiple genetic codes which could be known as a cultivar or strain.

Let's think about Cannabis again... when you buy some "White Widow" seeds your not getting an exact DNA copy of somebody else's plants, your getting seeds, which we are know are a "roll of the genetic dice" so to speak... but those seeds come from a closely related genetic pool... also know as a strain of cultivar.

With out Salvia divinorum we vegetativly propagate... so that each of us who has a "Paradox" all have THE EXACT SAME DNA... now what is something that has THE EXACT SAME DNA... it's a clone.

This topic was mostly about Salvia divinorum, what are y'all's thoughts?

Edited January 9, 2010 by Teotzlcoatl

[nabraxas]

what are y'all's thoughts?

about what exactly?

AFAIK what the guy says would be right.

As far as human cloning goes, over an elongated period of time, cloning of clones will weaken each set of genes to the point of causing negative mutations and severe health problems.

I wonder what happens w/plants...

[Ace]

what are y'all's thoughts?

About what? The advice above is pretty sound, if that is the question.

As far as human cloning goes, over an elongated period of time, cloning of clones will weaken each set of genes to the point of causing negative mutations and severe health problems.

I wonder what happens w/plants...

It's called senescence. It affects all organisms from fungi cultures through to plant cuttings.

[reptyle]

Better than cloning is breeding properly...to strengthen genetic lines and cement characteristic traits into the group, or tribe or family...

I believe the formula is the mothers mothers sisters childs child marries her child.

Fathers cannot breed with daughters or sister, though two paternally related siblings from different mothers can.

A Maternal family lines sons children can breed outside their own paternal line. Though sisters and brothers children cannot.

You would want to have all the slightest weaknesses culled relatively quickly to preserve the purity of the lines...and this would be an abomination unto the lord...haha

Or you would have to live in Egypt.

This is an aboriginal system...

Skin name (female) Marries (male) Children

Kngwarriya Upurla Kimarra

Upurla Kngwarriya Pitjarra

Pitjarra Kimarra Upurla

Kimarra Pitjarra Kngwarriya

Could be applied to anything and there are more...

[tripsis]

As far as human cloning goes, over an elongated period of time, cloning of clones will weaken each set of genes to the point of causing negative mutations and severe health problems.

I wonder what happens w/plants...

It's called senescence. It affects all organisms from fungi cultures through to plant cuttings.

I made a thread about this a while ago, specifically asking whether senescence through cloning does affect plants. Although there wasn't a great deal of feedback, it appeared that the general consensus was that it did not. Take the cavendish (common) banana for example. Every plant cultivated today is a clone of one another, yet they still grow with vigour.

Do you have evidence to the contrary of this Ace? It's a topic that really interests me.

Edited January 9, 2010 by tripsis

[paradox]

it seems you just don't get it teotz. if you make a clone of a particular 'strain' of a plant, obviously that clone will share the genetic code of the mother it came from & therefore would still be said to be of the same 'strain' as the mother.

i think you're completely confusing the terms. a 'strain' could be said to be a plant which has either been bred & inbred through parallel genetic lines or which has been naturally isolated in it's environment & therefore inbred so as to have distinctive stable genetic characteristics, which are of a sufficient stability so that if it is bred with another plant of the same line (strain) the offspring will inherit very distinctive characteristics.

a clone is just an individual plant which has been brought about by asexual reproduction (ie a cutting) & if it's a clone of a particular 'strain' then obviously it's still going to be that strain.

now if you have a seed grown plant & the seeds you grew it from come from a particular strain, then those plants will also be of that strain, but only if the pollination has been done by a plant of the same strain (or the same individual in the case of self fertile monoecious plants). if pollination of the female flowers was by pollen of a different strain then the resulting seeds would be a cross.

i don't want to see you copy & paste this into that thread you linked now ok tut tut tut

which gets me wondering just how many forums you have this conversation going in... looking for answers so you can look smart in the next forum?

edit...whats all this crap you're going on about 1 & 2 sets of DNA? if a clone has been taken from a recognized 'strain' of a species then it has the same DNA as the mother it came from which is of that strain. it is a clone of an individual which is of a particular strain. the whole thing is just a mute point. there is no reason that anyone would confuse a strain with a clone unless they were retarded. the two concepts, the two terms, the two processes we call a 'strain' & a 'clone' are sufficiently unrelated things so that the confusion of the two would only be a problem if you absolutely have no idea about anything to do with either of the two things.

i just gotta say that i feel sorry for those poor folks in that thread who are reading your posts & believe what you're saying is true... most of what you carry on with in that thread is utter bollocks.

Edited January 15, 2010 by xodarap

[Ace]

Take the cavendish (common) banana for example. Every plant cultivated today is a clone of one another, yet they still grow with vigour.

To be honest, I haven't done that much reading on it aside from in relation to mycology and certain plants. There is much talk of senescence in relation to mushroom cultures, cannabis and salvia (salvia in particular is often the target plant in senescence discussions because it is very rarely grown from seed). I don't know much about mass-farming though, only speaking of what I've stumbled across. It may be that certain organisms are more commonly affected by it? I would imagine it taking many, many cloned 'generations' before there would do anything noticable. Kinda like taking a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy ad infinitum. Theoretically, the genes begin to deteriorate in much the same way. It is quite an interesting area of genetic science.

I often wonder how things like PC pachanoi would be affected by it. It is one of the most common ornamental cacti that is almost always started from cuttings. Will senescence affect it eventually?

Edit: i don't want to see you copy & paste this into that thread you linked now ok tut tut tut

which gets me wondering just how many forums you have this conversation going in... looking for answers so you can look smart in the next forum?

It's annoying as hell, isn't it? The cutnpaste king strikes again. I'm sure all those other forums all think he's a pain in the butt too

Edited January 10, 2010 by Ace

[Teotzlcoatl]

"That guy" who I quoted was me.

The quote in the first post is something I wrote.

Thanks for the input.

[culebra22]

I often wonder how things like PC pachanoi would be affected by it. It is one of the most common ornamental cacti that is almost always started from cuttings. Will senescence affect it eventually?

 

...and what about Pereskiopsis?

That's always grown from cuttings.

will it eventually degenerate?

[san p]

correct me if im wrong but,isnt cloning plants something done on a industrial level in labs where they take some plant tissue and multiply it by the thousand (i dont know how they do it).and cuttings have incorrectly just gained the term clone.

like the apple variety "pacific rose" which came from one single branch of a completly different apple tree variety, it shows cuttings often will not be identicle to its mother.

[paradox]

correct me if im wrong but,isnt cloning plants something done on a industrial level in labs where they take some plant tissue and multiply it by the thousand (i dont know how they do it).and cuttings have incorrectly just gained the term clone.

 

i think you're thinking of tissue culture cloning. thats just an other form of cloning, so is taking cuttings etc.

the term 'clone' i believe is simply a broad term to describe any form of a-sexual reprodution.

[nabraxas]

salvia in particular is often the target plant in senescence discussions because it is very rarely grown from seed

what would be the general consensus on how senescence affects salvia?

clones i've seen look pretty healthy & grow quite vigorously.

could it be less potent than the source plant?

i know i could probably do a search myself, but just to keep the discussion going...

[tripsis]

To be honest, I haven't done that much reading on it aside from in relation to mycology and certain plants. There is much talk of senescence in relation to mushroom cultures, cannabis and salvia (salvia in particular is often the target plant in senescence discussions because it is very rarely grown from seed). I don't know much about mass-farming though, only speaking of what I've stumbled across. It may be that certain organisms are more commonly affected by it? I would imagine it taking many, many cloned 'generations' before there would do anything noticable. Kinda like taking a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy ad infinitum. Theoretically, the genes begin to deteriorate in much the same way. It is quite an interesting area of genetic science.

I often wonder how things like PC pachanoi would be affected by it. It is one of the most common ornamental cacti that is almost always started from cuttings. Will senescence affect it eventually?

Plant cells, unlike animal and fungal (and possibly bacterial and archaean) cells, are totipotent, meaning unless they are already highly differentiated, have the ability to become any other cell, much like stem cells. For example, you can take a tissue sample from root, leaf or stem and through culturing techniques grow a whole new plant. You can't do this with animal cells, except with stem cells. Fungal cells are the same, except that most fungal tissue is of the same cell type, so cloning from mycelium or fruitbody will produce the same results, i.e. new mycelial growth.

If the PC pachanoi was a fungus, it would have senesced long ago. I would expect that plants do fall prey to senescence, the same as other organisms, but perhaps not.

Has anyone heard of that massive aspen grove in Utah? It has approximately 47000 stems, yet is a single organism.

Source.

The Aspen tree (Populus tremuloides) forms large stands of genetically identical trees (technically, stems) connected by a single underground root system. These trees form through root sprouts coming off an original parent tree, though the root system may not remain a single unit in all specimens. The largest known fully-connected Aspen is a grove in Utah nicknamed Pando, and some experts call it the largest organism in the world,[1] by mass or volume.[2] It covers 0.43 km2 (106 acres) and is estimated to weigh 6,600 short tons (6,000 t).[3]

Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pando_(tree)

Again, if this was a fungus, it would have degraded long ago. Senescence is in direct correlation to the number of times a cell has divided. To have grown so massive, the cells would have undergone countless millions of divisions, something fungi are just not capable of.

See my thread about this same topic and the discussion relating to it (I don't think anyone here replied to the topic).

Edited January 11, 2010 by tripsis

[Teotzlcoatl]

what would be the general consensus on how senescence affects salvia?

clones i've seen look pretty healthy & grow quite vigorously.

could it be less potent than the source plant?

Salvia divinorum doesn't seem to change at all.... expect perhaps this is how "Luna" arose.

[planthelper]

i was thinking of "la luna" whilst reading a bit still further up, so there you have it, even salvia d. might have produced a spontanious mutation, just like the apple tree mentioned earlier.

i think there is some movement arround, which wants to put a similar wide range of strains as we know it from cannabis, around salvia, which is a bit stupid, i think.

when we discussed the breeding super strains topic, i mentioned that a big gene pool for starters will make a big difference to how things will develope.

if you cross a sativa with an indica, a lot of things might happen because of there big differences.

or with other words, before the american strawberry was crossed with the european, all europaen strawberries where small in size!!

so unless there is an other salvia d. with very different makeup or lets say composition,

most breeding programs with salvia d. might turn out boring.

with some ornamental plants and i guess with others too, long time breeding might have produced at times, some spontanious changes in there morphology, basicly a new strain.

so some new looking stuff might arise from starting off with little, but in the case of salvia d. i think, there is very little different material to start off with,

and spontanious changes are often a rare occurence.

collecting a lot of different salvia d's is certainly the right thing to do,

and maybe you get that "so different outcross" which i seem to promote again (the american strawberry for example) from an other non divinorum salvia (suitable canditates are found on auxins salvia chromosones list).