psycho0 Posted February 15, 2004 what's the best way to take kratom? do u just make tea or boil the powdered leaves or would an alcohol extraction work better? thanx Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Happy Cadaver Posted February 15, 2004 The latest craze in Thailand is to take an enema of kratom. Please report back to the forums on how u go. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest electro Posted February 15, 2004 mmm enema ... lol make a tea .. it tastes similar to (*in my opinion nicer than*) green tea. you could always make a tea, strain and evap to dryness & smoke or swallow the resin thats left ... (ive read that swallowing balls of the water extract resin is polular over there) ... alcohol should work but isnt necessary (unless it is very high % And the actives arent soluble in ethanol ? ) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darklight Posted February 16, 2004 psycho0: what's the best way to take kratom? Tea is easiest and quickest IMO, if not especially palatable. Add some fresh lemon juice when you pour the hot water in to increase the effectiveness.Fresh leaves can be chewed apparantly, according to the latest TER. But I can't imagine that being any more palatable then the tea, in fact, maybe less so. No idea about extracts, sorry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
friendly Posted February 16, 2004 Mitragynine is soluble in alcohol, chloroform and acetic acid, according to the Merck Index. [ 16. February 2004, 02:10: Message edited by: friendly ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Torsten Posted February 16, 2004 yes friendly, but the salts aren't. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theobromos Posted February 17, 2004 Think about that for a few seconds, Torsten and I am sure you will see your error. If not I'll be in again later. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Torsten Posted February 17, 2004 the only thing that I can see how my comment could be wrong is if mitragynine is present as the base in the plant. As far as I am aware most alkaloids are present as the salts of organic acids, especially those alkaloids that move freely in the sap. Such a salt may well be soluble in alcohol, but probably less so than in water. Unless it is a hydrochloride it would also presumably be quite insoluble in chloroform. And yes, when I posted I did not even look at the third solvent. Obviously being an acid it would result in the acetate and then probably be soluble in the water of that acid. I wonder if this solubility data would hold true for glacial acetic acid However, this thread was about simple extraction from herb, which means we are looking at solubilities of the organic salts in various common solvents. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
friendly Posted February 17, 2004 My intent was merely to provide information on solvents useful for the concentration of mitragynine from raw herb and had nothing to do with compounds thereof. No salts of Mitragynine are listed in the Merck Index, only Mitragynine, or I would have provided that information. In my comments in the other thread on kratom I give specific entry and page numbers for the Mitragynine entry from the 13th edition of the Merck Index. I felt it would be redundant to put that here, also. As it is, the information I provided should be of assistance to the amateur without a full laboratory in which to work. My apologies for any misunderstanding. [ 17. February 2004, 03:39: Message edited by: friendly ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Torsten Posted February 17, 2004 I think theo is having a go at me here, not you friendly. you've got the other thread where he is picking on YOU Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
friendly Posted February 17, 2004 I don't feel picked upon. Heaven forbid anyone should take anything said by anyone at face value without investigating it for themselves. That's how you end up with dogma and faith based everything. I have nothing but good intent (and a smile) and believe everyone else here has the same. My intent was to communicate what was reported in the Merck Index regarding Mytragynine solvency and I have done that. Perhaps I should have started a separate thread to avoid the confusion I seem to have created. So many herbs; so little time.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest electro Posted February 17, 2004 i wonder if the isolation of pure Mitragynine will be as detrimental to kratom as the isolation of cocaine from e.coca. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
planthelper Posted February 17, 2004 i am just a cook, and i observe... look up my kratom extr. by ph. http://www.shaman-australis.com/cgi-bin/ub...ic;f=5;t=001741 there are so many different layers if you work with kratom. the solvent that worked performing a simple hydro (vinegar, some water, few drops hcl, some citric acid) a/b (drain cleaner)with kratom was shellite, if i remeber well. [ 17. February 2004, 13:39: Message edited by: planthelper ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
friendly Posted February 18, 2004 Celastrus oil was put into softgels to keep it from becoming an article of abuse. People are more likely to be cautious with something in pre-measured dosage form than with droppersful of raw oil. I, also, dread the inevitability of a white powder from Celastrus hitting the black market. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theobromos Posted February 18, 2004 OK friendly, I won't do it. Though I have a good idea that I could Just a little amiable prod, Torsten. Always try to be good, but the oxygen density down here is getting to me. Ammonia to get rid of those pesky organic acids, certainly the phytates and tannates won't be soluble in much short of aqua regia. Then chloroform or alcohol is the usual way to get these out, no? And what could be a more common solvent than vinegar (distilled malt vinegar is recommended for many extracts). The cheapest and easiest of the ibogaine extractions for example. Are there any pseudoindoxyls of this type mentioned in the Merck now? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Torsten Posted February 18, 2004 Originally posted by theobromos: Just a little amiable prod, Torsten. yes, I know mine too Ammonia to get rid of those pesky organic acids Ummm, the question was about making a simply crude extract. My point was that chloroform will not extract mitragynine out of the herb. Treatment with ammonia is a separate (and for most non-chemists unlikely) step. If the solvent listed would have been ammoniacal chloroform then it would have been applicable and my reply would have been wrong. You cannot be sooo pedantic with everyone all the time, but at the same time try to sweep this one under the rug Then chloroform or alcohol is the usual way to get these out, no? yes, but then we are dealing with the freebase and not with the salts. So my comment was not incorrect and as such your correction inappropriate. Just holding you to your own high standards And what could be a more common solvent than vinegar (distilled malt vinegar is recommended for many extracts). Nothing. I did say I missed this one entirely. But then again, it did not say dilute or aqueous acetic acid, which is what would be required. I really doubt that mitragynine will dissolve well in glacial acetic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theobromos Posted February 19, 2004 If someone goes to the bother of using chloroform or dry alcohol for an extraction of alkaloids of any type they would be silly not to use ammonia first as none of the salts would be very soluble in the former and not VERY soluble in the latter. The question was "kratom prep?". Pedantic, I? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
John_Barleycorn Posted February 20, 2004 A lot of plants are chock full of surfactants, so the alkaloids could in principle be quite mobile as the free base. Having said that, yes, most biological systems operate under mildly acidic conditions. Morphine is certainly present in poppies as both salt and base. Pseudoephedrine HCL is one alkaloid salt that dissolves in chloroform. And I can't really see why vinegar would be a more effective free base solvent than the more polar glacial acetic; but who wants to mess around with glacial acetic anyway? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theobromos Posted February 20, 2004 Vinegar is almost unable to be a free base solvent. Are you sure glacial acetic is more polar? A lot of leaves are full of phytates and tannates. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Officer Steve Posted March 2, 2004 So which do you think is better? 1.)Boiling the leaves 2.)Steeping the leaves in the hot water My usual method is to bring the water to a very light boil, turning off the heat, and then adding powdered leaf to the hot water. After straining through a reusable coffee filter, I repeat the extraction up to two more times. This method yields plenty of nice tasting tea (I add sugar) I'm just wondering if I should be boiling the leaves for higher quality. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fruit Posted March 3, 2004 I made a tea (slight boil for ~5 min) from 4 teaspoons of crushed (into a coarse powder) dried Kratom with 2 cups of water tonight, and added sugar, and I must say it tasted horrible. It was very bitter with a hint of sour spinach or something. How anything with this herb in it can ever taste nice is beyond me. Definately tasted poisonous. The kratom was filtered off (but saved) and me and a friend drank half a cup each (starting out low). After ~40 min I decided it didn't do anything so I drank another 1/2 cup. Still nothing. However my stomach didn't like the Kratom at all; I got all bubbly and semi-diharreic. However, circumstances makes it difficult to tell if this was the Kratom. [ 03. March 2004, 11:57: Message edited by: Fruit ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
psycho0 Posted March 3, 2004 when just trying it out i first put a teaspoon in a cup and added boiling water. it didn't have much taste except a bit of gritti ness. when i boiled a fair bit of it for 4h it tasted awful. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zarathustra Posted March 18, 2004 So, what is the best way to prepare Kratom, in terms of potency and extracting the most mitragynine? The only constraint I'm concerned about is availability of any needed supplies. I don't really care how long it takes, or how difficult it is (within practical limits for a non-chemist.) Vinegar is mentioned, but I'm not really sure what it does (although I presume it helps to dissolve more alkaloids.) Right now, I perform a water extraction. I boil a half-pound (224 grams) of powdered leaf for about 16 minutes, strain (with a fine-mesh strainer; I also use an herb press to get all the liquid out) and separate the liquid, then re-boil the leaf again for another 16 minutes, strain, etc. again, and then combine the contents of both extractions, and then boil that down to a reasonable size (so that it fits in my storage container.) I then have a stupid Excel spreadsheet to calculate the dosage for me (I'm lazy), based on amount of leaf used and resulting liquid volume. Anyway, will adding vinegar enhance this process?? What other techniques? Thanks, Mr. Kratom Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
planthelper Posted March 18, 2004 16min of cooking time is far to short, scroll more to the top again..., it say's simmered for 4h or so!! anyhow, dont throw out those 16min water boil leaves, most of the actives would still be in them, your short boil would have removed only very little... acids like lemonjuice get used because they turn the plant actives into water soluble salts! [ 18. March 2004, 06:22: Message edited by: planthelper ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zarathustra Posted March 18, 2004 planthelper: 16min of cooking time is far to short, scroll more to the top again..., it say's simmered for 4h or so!! anyhow, dont throw out those 16min water boil leaves, most of the actives would still be in them, your short boil would have removed only very little... acids like lemonjuice get used because they turn the plant actives into water soluble salts! I saw that, but I thought the 4 hours was for creating resin. The reason why I'm only boiling for 16 minutes is 'cuz thats what Daniel Siebert's website says to do (actually, he said 15 minutes), and he seems to be a well-respected guy.I'll try this on my next batch. You're getting my hopes up now. If it significantly boosts the efficiency, and resultant potency, I'm gonna be one happy camper! Anyway, why is it that I'm getting some out without using lemon juice? Does this mean that mitragynine is present in salt form to some extent? And the lemon juice converts the rest? I saw that a pH of 4 was mentioned, either in this thread or another, does that sound about right? I've got a pH/EC meter, so I can be scientific about it ;-) Does anything work better than lemon juice btw, or is it the pH that really matters? Crap, I'm going to have to try this tonight. Thanks, Mr. Kratom Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
