Acacia Sustainability

[Machine Elf]

Hi all,

I'm quite interested in some of the more exotic properties of the Acacias. However, I've been a bit shocked at some of the tales of pure vandalism committed by tryptamine lovers on plants growing in the wild.

Surely these measures are unnecessary? Acacia obtusifolia sounds like a backyard-sized shrub, wouldn't it be more sustainable for t-lovers to plant a couple in their backyard and work with these?

Please forgive my ignorance if there are sound reasons for not doing things this way. Do the acacias perhaps take too long to grow to maturity? Interested in the answers to these questions.

Belfy

[visionaryb3ar]

a good question to acompany that prospect would be:

which acacias have leaves as a viable extraction source?

leaves are plentiful and pruning helps the tree grow to some extent :D

[folias]

If you grow a tree, it would take 3 years plus for it to be harvestable and even then you would have to hurt the tree...

I don't know of any species of acacia from which one can extract from the phyllodes and obtain a really useable product...people tell me that maidenii phyllodes can contain .5% but I haven't come across this sub-species which contains this.

Vandalism is flattening whole forrests of ancient trees hundreds of years old selling the wood for 7 cents a tonne...this still commonly happens in the world.

Generally quite conscious tryptamine lovers going out and taking the bark from occaisonal trees is nothing but a speck in the scheme of things. The payoff or magnitude in the human schema is worth the sacrifice, otherwise it often wouldn't be done...

DMT would simply would not be available in Austalia unless people were prepared to do this...lets hope enough people get their shit together to ensure that sustainable tryptamine harvesting is made possible.

Julian.

[Machine Elf]

Hi Julian,

So what sort of impact can an Acacia handle before irreversible damage is caused?

If it's three years to maturity, then perhaps a number of us should start planting - so that there are multiple sources.

Belfy

[Guest electro]

I have a few obtusfolia at friends and relatives houses and my prized baby (a.madenii) (aswell as a few obtusfolia) in pots in my backyard...

everyone.. grow madenii .. she is beautiful And from what i remember endangered.

I plan to grow some in local parks when i get a payrise (and can afford to just donate money to species preservation).

Not everyone hacks up wild trees.

Also the gnome down the road has only once harvested bark .... and he did so from the tips of very common trees - longafolia is EVERYWHERE in sydney - (by simply pruning at late winter early spring) .. the trees looked much healthier that summer ...

mind you thr results were pretty dismal ... grasses payed off much better ...{ie grasses at least had A yield]

[waterdragon]

maidenii is a tough bugger, stands up to all sorts of temperature extremes, etc so far. have six of them in pots. just finished sprouting obtusifolias. very possibly have the soil and climate to perpetuate some phlebs if i can ever lay my hands on some.

[planthelper]

using the phyllodes of obtusifolia gives good results. and it is very rewarding to know that like this, the trees get hurt only a little bit.

but unfortunately its not very efficient compared to using bark. the end result is not yellow, whiteish or redish like with bark, but green as the phyllodes.

[SteveElektro]

I'd like to know more about Obtusifolia's reported spread to Victoria, a state sadly lacking in abundance of known sources aside from it's non-viable struggling population of Phlebs.

They're like a treasure chest sinking in quick sand in the middle of the desert.

Does anyone know to what extent Obtusifolia has settled here? I recall reading somewhere that it may have been introduced on farming equipment.

Obtusifolia though may promise to provide Victoria with a protective buffer for the struggling Phlebophylla, allowing people to focus solely on the survival rather than any harvesting of Phlebophylla for the time being. Perhaps the trees are in communicatin with eachother, they called for backup

Helping promote the species here would have the benefit of eliminating damage from potential harvesting on Phlebophylla while positively contributing to the relationship between the Acacias and humans.

Of course the obvious solution to small scale semi-destructive effects of harvesting is make sure there are plenty of trees! ie making sure all who do so are promoting the survival of the species at high enough levels to far more than make up for an occasional harvest. Make provisions for future generations of humans and Acacia's alike is a mission worth doing! Interest in DMT seems to be rising, I mean there was an article about Ayahuasca in Good Weekend a couple of months ago. The more sources we have, the better off we'll all be.

[ 26. January 2004, 16:26: Message edited by: SteveElektro ]

[Fractalhead]

Every time an Acacia sustainability thread appears around the place I bring up Acacia nilotica... so I'll do it again.

Acacia nilotica is one of the biggest weeds in australia and has apparently been tested positively for DMT (see SAB info page). The bark and roots have a history of psychoactive use in africa (see Medicinal and Poisonous Plants of Southern and Eastern Africa -2nd Edition, 1962). Considering these facts, it seems amazing that the sub-species growing in north western qld hasn't been specifically tested and its exploitation been discussed. If it turns out to be a decent source, this would probably be the most environmentally sound source in the world.

I posted about this in more detail over at the Ethnobotany Australia forums in the 'Ethnobotany- Lets Get Real' thread in the general ethnobotany section.

[Torsten]

For obtusifolia locations in victoria you should attend one of the local melbourne meetings. Folia might know too, but I have forgotten the location.

Acacia maidenii is NOT an endangered species, EXCEPT in victoria. It is quite common in NSW.

Obtusifolia does contain useful amounts of alkaloids in the leaves. Do not use leaves in brews though as they contain some toxic substances that are automatically removed in alkaloid purification procedures.

If you can't stop yourself from using bark harvested from wild trees, then PLEASE do not use trunk bark. The bark on the branches is just as potent and a tree is designed to lose the occasional branch without sustaining much damage. Do not cut close to the trunk and do not rip the branch off. Use proper pruning methods to leave a clean, smooth, small wound. Look in a gardening book if you don't know how. This is not a trivial matter, as any bark injury can allow pathogens or insects to destroy the tree from the inside out.

Taking trunk bark is likely to kill the tree over time. If you need to take trunk bark (note: you really don't!!!!), then take it all from one tree and all at once. The tree will die anyway, so you might as well use the whole lot rather than leaving 98% to rot.

If you live anywhere that is frost free (and preferably north of about Grafton), then seriously consider growing Psychotria viridis for your tryptamine needs.

The serious damage done to trees is done mostly by greedy 'commercial' harvesters, but as the potential of this spreads, more and more 'personal' harvesters will contribute to the problem. Follow the above rules to minimse damage.

[Plant Pimp]

I heard that Phalaris Arundinacea (canary reed grass) is an easily grown substitute. I have no idea how potent it is though, but it's an invasive grass, so there is no chance of endangering the supply! It's much easier to regrow a lawn than a forest.

[SteveElektro]

Torsten:

you should attend one of the local melbourne meetings.

I'd like to, are they a regular occurance?

[Auxin]

Plant Pimp:

I heard that Phalaris Arundinacea (canary reed grass) is an easily grown substitute.

From what I've heard- yes it can be a substitute, but its a pretty poor one. Phalaris tuberosa (aquatica) is said to be better, but still what- something like 1/4 the potency (0.1% on the dry basis in a good batch... and grass is largely water). But yes- clearing invasive weeds is better than harming natives.

What About Desmodium gangeticum?

Has anyone really looked into this? I hear it grows in northern Oz.

[folias]

Around Sydney and south of Sydney, even coming into Victoria, there are the usually quite shrubby obutisfolias which are quite prevalent and often contain 0.6%+ tryptamine content I have been told.

There is a small stand of Obtusifolias, about 50 trees I'm told just outside of Melbourne. I don't know where they are...but know people who do!

As for trees in Victoria with humanly useful tryptamine content, I'm going to have a close look when I there in early feb...but don't have high hopes frankly!

Julian.

[Machine Elf]

Torsten,

Thanks for your reply on this thread. Is Psychotria necessarily used in the oral manner, eg Ayahuasca, or is there also a history of smoking it? Some gnomes with small children and large workloads enjoy the short-acting experiences.

Also, what sort of cultivation period would you think is needed for a Psychotria plant source to be sustainable?

Thanks for any help.

Belfy

[planthelper]

..psychotria viridis leaves

can be strong and smoked..

[Torsten]

Originally posted by folias:

Around Sydney and south of Sydney, even coming into Victoria, there are the usually quite shrubby obutisfolias which are quite prevalent and often contain 0.6%+ tryptamine content I have been told.

The point is that the obtusifolias in victoria are introduced weeds and are taking over ahabitat. Removing them is a good thing. Removing the trees south of sydney is the same as doing it in northern NSW.

There is a small stand of Obtusifolias, about 50 trees I'm told just outside of Melbourne.

There is a valley in Gippsland somewhere that is being overrun by them. Several of the melbourne people know the location.

[Torsten]

Melbourne meetings are not as frequent as they used to be. But they are usually advertised here.

Psychotria leaves are easy to extract (only where legal of course!!) as they do not contain tannins (like acacia bark or mimosa roots). They are certainly a viable alternative. In the tropics I would think they are the top choice.

http://www.shaman-australis.com/cgi-bin/ub...ic;f=2;t=001478

As for Phalaris grasses, one ironic thing I noticed in my travels to Mt Buffalo is that the whole area and especially the roadsides are covered in Phalaris aquatica.

[ 28. January 2004, 01:40: Message edited by: Torsten ]

[Stonehenge]

I would second the recommendation for p viridis as a substitute for acacias. They grow much faster for one thing and you can use the leaves. A plant can lose a lot of leaves without being damaged but a tree can scarcely lose any bark. The leaves are a fairly high source of triptamines. Other psychotria species are good too like p carthagenesis and p alba. They are all a little slow from seed but cuttings root easily and even leaves will root and form a new plant. One plant can turn into a hundred in a year or so. They don't like freezing but can tollerate a light frost. A grower told me his viridis withstood 16f (about -9c) but died back to the roots which regrew in the spring. A mild frost may only nip a few leaves.

Stoney

ps. Torsten, you have a pm.

[Machine Elf]

Thanks for the info. I see that germination takes a long time from seed, anyone know where to source a cutting in the Brisbane area?

Belfy

[Ed Dunkel]

If you live anywhere that is frost free (and preferably north of about Grafton), then seriously consider growing Psychotria viridis for your tryptamine needs.

Torsten, would Psychotria catharginensis be a better choice for the colder regions? I seem to remember it being said that it is hardier (not necessarily frost tolerant) that P. viridis?

Insulation in Australian houses doesn't seem to be the best. In Victoria that is.

[Torsten]

catharginensis is much hardier in regards to drought, but no idea about temperature...