I believe

[Chiral]

ME, i mean no offense but your defensiveness over the issue gives me the impression you must be studying med, or your father is a doc or something, and you seem unwilling to accept what others are saying. that's great if you or someone you know is a doctor, i've got a lot of respect for anyone even attempting to fulfill such a role, there's no reason to take offense because "whingers" have had less than satisfactory encounters with other medical professionals.

and i know where you are coming from completely, i dont doubt there's a lot of unwarranted doctor bashing, especially these days with the 'rivalry' posed by natural medicine too, but that goes both ways. it's unfortunate but the reality is medical mishaps/negligence/over-prescription/whatever is a lot more common than you seem willing to accept. i'm not going to go into the details of my unsatisfactory dealings with docs, nor my girlfriends, nor the 5 other people i know that come to mind straight away when i think about this, but have you considered the fact that some people may be almost forced to google/research their problems? shit, i know if i hadn't started to study phys/anatomy for myself i would've continued following the doc blindly and be a whole lot worse off than i am now.

perhaps some of the doctors who dislike the wave of self-diagnosis are a little pissed they can't just write a script, no questions asked anymore. i'm sure it would make their job a little harder, but it just means the job has to be done more thoroughly, and that's not just on the shoulders of GPs but the system also. people have a right to their own opinions and understandings, and if the doc doesn't have the time to explain to them why their theory is incorrect then that's a whole other issue (and not one you can blame the GPs for, but seriously can you really get to the bottom of all medical cases in 15mins?).

i'm not anti-medical establishment in any way, but if the healthcare profession is truly being run into the ground by patient self-diagnosis (when really i think there would be a lot more to it than that) then there's probably room for some improvement don't you think? no use telling people to stop researching their health, the docs have to confront this new trend, change is a good thing. there's nothing wrong with an empowered patient, in fact if there were more people practicing self-care and taking the odd lesson from their doctor/docere, then there'd be more time for the good doctors to work on those cases that really require their attention.

anyway enough from me, and i mean no disrespect at all, it's just there seems a lot of people have good reason to whinge, bitch, piss and moan and it's not just because they googled their condition before visiting the doc.

peace man

BINGO..just thought I'd say that ..I'm sure ME has no probs with admitting that he is studying medicine and his father is a doctor..if so I'm sure he will ask me to delete or give me a slap this arvo...

[neo1]

BINGO..just thought I'd say that ..I'm sure ME has no probs with admitting that he is studying medicine and his father is a doctor..if so I'm sure he will ask me to delete or give me a slap this arvo...

Look, this thread has got way out of hand!! I am very sorry for offending anybody, Its just what I have been through. I am not a bad guy, I've just been

through hell!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I still go to the doctor and I never would change that, but I don't listen to everything they say and "take it as the word of God!!! " not anymore I don't."

I think "its great!!!!" that anybody wants to learn to become a doctor! But, people who want to become a doctor need to lose their Egos!!!! for a bit!!

Not saying egos are all bad, but they can get you in to trouble!! Example by thinking its all just clear cut!! and that its all one size fits all, with every disease and symptom!! its not!!!! it's "not one size fits all!!!" and "every single" case "is completely different!!!!!" "People are not text books!!!!" ,"people much more than what a medical journal stated!" Example: weed and the testis!!!!!(which I think is all BS!!, and many, many others!! too many to state here!!!!)

Something might have some similarities, but they need to think about this that person may not be in same amount of pain or it might not be in the same location, or gender and other shite loads of types of shite, ect, ect, ect, ect, ect, ect!! This how they quote un quote "fuck up!!" and miss shite!! they other wise would got!! I've seen it first hand!! I been in the game 10+ years, and I know!! I have watched it with my own two eyes!!

That being said, I less madd at the doctors, and more madd with "myself" that "I" "didn't do my homework!!" I should have been reading tons!!!! of every book I could find on "true health!!!" not what I read in a bodybuilding mag. or what some doctor told me, or something. I was stupid back then, so I do blame myself also.... 90% the stuff people are reading in these mags, is crap!!! Not everything, but a lot of it is, and has nothing to do with "true health!!!" That is how I am over coming my disease!! I am getting to be bottom of what "true health" really is! Not some bull crap I heard, or read in a stupid mag.

Also many doctors are moving away from true health to pharma drugs!! I understand this, but its not helping people over all health much... Sometimes it's must , and I don't doubt that!! But its just moving a away from what true health really is. I really don't blame for this either, I am only stating that it is the way things are moving to, as people just don't want to watch their freaken diets and try to keep them self healthy! Then they go into the doctor fucked to hell and want them to quote un quote "fix" them, and this is not not possible for them to do!! Not with the tool they have!!

I just saying people need to try and take control over their own health!! not to the point they just diagnosing them selves, no!! They need to get checked up by a doctor for that. However, again, that being said, they need to be careful about reading into much about what the doctor says, and really think long and hard about what they are going to do about it, for it could make or break there lives to pieces!!!

Also I never felt that any of the doctors I went to were incompetent, No, I don't believe that!! I never wanted to sue any of them! as I do understand what I truly hard job they have, and I am not for suing doctors!! That the last thing you want to do!! I truly understand they do have a very difficult job they have to do, and there are risk involved on "both sides!!!!!" And if people can't handle that, they need to stay home!!!! But I guess I am just piss with the whole system I guess. I don't know, I am extreme case, so that most likely had a lot to do with how I feel.

Edited February 25, 2009 by neo1

[coin]

Isn't MindExpansion's wife a GP ??

[neo1]

PH, what have I said that comes close to overstepping the line? The only thing I can see someone taking offence to is my telling T to grab a physiology text book and read up if he wants to keep self diagnosing, and i tried to make it as clear as i could that i wasn't trying to rip on his knowledge, just making a suggestion. Also, drug and alcohol abuse become common in the medical profession, probably an unfortunate combination of an excessively stressful job and easy access to many common drugs of abuse. And as far as the nurses being right when the docs are wrong I don't discount this at all, experienced nurses have seen the same things over and over and are incredibly knowledgable and such a valuable part of the health care system.

Torsten the only questions I can see in your post relate to specific examples, circumstances that I do not fully know, and as such it would be faily pointless for me to comment on them, but one that I will comment on is your use of the term manipulation regarding your urologist, you not wanting to go under GA right away is fair enough if you have a fear of GA's, and as such you should voice that concern to the doc, which you did, and he took it into account, he may not have thought it the best course of action but he went with your suggestion, that is a case of successful doctor patient communication, not really a manipulation of the situation, but rather a compromise that the doc has made to better suit your desires.

Oh and to be honest I don't care if you think I'm being condescending, I don't think I am, because in your specific case you may know some phsyiology, but most people have no fucking idea, they know when something in their body feels right and when something feels wrong, but most sensations can be caused by so many different things and most people do not realise this, that is not a fault in their intellect or logic or anything, it is simply a lack of knowledge, just as I have no knowledge of engineering and as such I would not draw up plans for a building, but those who don't know their physiology etc still love to self diagnose and still often turn up convinced that they know what their ailment is. And saying that this isn't often damaging because in your cases and a hand full of cases you know of it hasn't been is being naive, doctors wouldn't voice such dislike of it if they didn't feel it in some way detrimental to the dignosis process, so I'm not saying the way you do things is wrong, but some people handle the whole self diagnosis thing in a different way to how you seem to do it, and as said, most people do not read physiology for fun.

These are opinionated issues, there is probably no rights or wrongs, some docs probably have little issue with self diagnosis, some hate it, some people probably do it in a more productive way than others, and to be sure some doctors just aren't that great at certain aspects of practice be it communications or knowledge but again, you have to give them some credit for most of the time they do not fuck up, again T your experience seems to be a little out of the ordinary which is unfortunate for you but lets not consider it to be the way these things go in general.

Peace

I welcome it! and no you did not offend "ME" at all!!!

[Torsten]

ME, I can actually agree with most of your last post. I can see how selfdiagnosis can make things difficult for docs. I do still feel that people have a right to take charge of their bodies though and that surrendering to GPs is not everyone's cup of tea. But with that right comes responsibility too and as we know most people don't take responsibility for much in their lives.

I think the only aspect we really disagree on is the extent of wrong diagnosis and wrong treatment. You keep mentioning my particular personal experience, but I am trying to put across that it goes deeper than that. In fact, my main issue is that incompetence is covered up by the profession as a whole. I know I am repeating myself with this example, but it is very representative of what I am talking about. A person with full trust in the medical system goes to GP for otitis externa. A swab test shows that it is fungal, and not bacterial, but the patient does not know what this means. The GP prescribes some funky named ear drops [which were antibacterial only]. Condition gets worse and the GP blames the disease. The patient goes to a different GP who refers her to a ENT specialist WITHOUT changing to an antifungal. The specialist then makes the right diagnosis and [because of the serious progression of the condition] orders a transplant. At no point was the patient told that the prescribed medication was wrong. Not by the original GP who fucked up, not by the second GP who made the referral and not by the specialist who cleaned up the mess. It wasn't until I told her about the possibility of it being fungal that she did her own research and got to the bottom of the incompetence and coverup, and only then did the specialist give her the full picture of what has happened.

Now, if you go through 3 licenses doctors you should have an expectation for one to correct the mistakes of the other and for some feedback system [whether disciplinary or not] to kick into action. Such a feedback system should at the very least work on the professional level, but it should also be open to patient complaints. For all we know the original GP is still treating fungal ear infections as bacterial and hence undermining the trust of people in the GP profession and the medical field at large. And this matter is not an isolated case as you can tell from what I have posted. I don't go looking for these fuck up, I just notice them because they appear to me as obvious mistakes. Most of the patients I have mentioned here did not know they had a wrong diagnosis or treatment until I told them to ask the right questions. So, essentially they are model patients as far as your guidelines go, but end up shattered victims. Given the fact thatmost of these victims did not know they were victims until some outside person informed them of such, you have to wonder just how many victims continue not knowing that they are victims. And personally I think the internet makes it easier for people to find out if they were treated right or wrong and that this overrides the problems and dynamics you mentioned.

I truely believe that the lack of oversight and the lack of continued monitoring of the individual doctors is the main cause of why the medical system is so distrusted and why it is degrading itself. People in ivory towers do not have any need to improve themselves and hence many medics don't.

If we had a functioning oversight system then most people probably wouldn't bother with amateur second guessing of diagnoses.

As a bonus, if we had more efficient oversight systems we would not have situations where doctors are for example allowed to assault women for several years after the original complaint is made. No one has faith in the oversight system that is currently in place because it does not work. It can't even weed out sexual abusers, so how can it weed out incompetence? Not even doctors have any faith in it.

I think people would be a lot more trusting of their doctors if they had good reason to be.

[MindExpansion]

Glad we're getting somewhere, but it would be impossible to monitor every diagnosis of every doc in the country, it is probably more up to the patients and other members of the profession to report poor practice, but there is a difference between malpracrtice and honest mistakes, yest doctors cant be allowed to make dangerous mistakes all the time, but they should not be fired for making mistakes either. The cases of sexual abuse etc are gross abuses of power and these do need better investigation and while keeping them under wraps has its reasons (dont want people to loose faith in the whole proffession because of the actions of a few bad seeds, much like many people's current views on muslim's because of some minority of terrorists) it is not appropriate for the correct investigations and actions to not be taken, and for the public to be reassured that the right actions have been taken and that those docs are the minority and that they should be reported by the public. Mind if i ask what the name of the medicine prescribed for the infection was? If you remember that is. Also just gotta say that while it does sound like it is the doc's mistake, there is also the possibility that the lab results came in wrong, doc's do not differentiate between fungal and bacterial, the lab does all that work, just a possibility but if you say the specialist explained it all then im guessing they told the patient that it was simply incorrect treatment when the diagnosis was correct.

Peace

[Torsten]

it would be impossible to monitor every diagnosis of every doc in the country, it is probably more up to the patients and other members of the profession to report poor practice

Yes, that's what I am getting at. There is no effective and trustworthy process to do this with at the moment which is why no one does it. Like I said, all of the examples I have provided should have been reviewed by someone so that the medic who made the mistake can be made aware of it and in fact other medical professionals associated with the case should be made aware of it too. eg the case where the GP advised chocolate to be safe for a bypass patient was not resolved until I insisted my dad eat a small amount of chocolate while still in the mergency ward so they can monitor the effect. The cardiac surgeon, the nurses and the GP were all surprised at the results. But other than this handful of people the information probably did not go any further and the same mistake will be made by others at the very least, and by the same people at worst.

but there is a difference between malpracrtice and honest mistakes

yes, no argument there. However, you would expect a GP to knw certain things, so if he diagnoses or treats wrong then that's malpractice. Proving it is a different matter and I think is the reason why we don't have an effective oversight process. The whole system is too scared that any admission might also open the door for litigation. eg, the ear patient could only litigate with the information provided by the specialist, so if the specialist stays quiet then she has no such option. personally I'd prefer a system of better oversight than a system of massive litigation.

Mind if i ask what the name of the medicine prescribed for the infection was? If you remember that is.

No, I don't remember, but can probably find out. It was an antibiotic and steroid combination. I researched very hard to make sure there was no fungicidal activity in that product. And as you know steroids promote fungal growth so the medication actually aggravated the condition.

Also just gotta say that while it does sound like it is the doc's mistake, there is also the possibility that the lab results came in wrong, doc's do not differentiate between fungal and bacterial, the lab does all that work

Her first step after I told her to look into the process was to get a copy of the lab results. The lab results clearly stated fungus to be the problem. It had not differentiated the fungus genus as far as I know. I have since seen fungal otitis exterior myself in a couple of cases [including myself] and I find it very difficult to fathom how anyone can mistake this for a bacterial growth.

just a possibility but if you say the specialist explained it all then im guessing they told the patient that it was simply incorrect treatment when the diagnosis was correct.

The specialist obtained the original lab results and also had some of his own . Once he was pressed for it he was very clear about what had happened. I don't think the patient will litigate because it's a small town situation, but essentially I think she has enough to do so. Lucky for her the condition resolved itself and the transplant was a success without much drama. I am sure she would feel differently if the fungus had entered her skull or if the transplant procedure has fucked up.

[MindExpansion]

One last sentence before bed, litigation is the crippling hammer thats crushing the medical system.

Peace

[FancyPants]

I assume you mean unnecessary litigation. I really hope you do.

[Evil Genius]

Why should Doctors be the only professional guild that cant be held responsible for medical malpractice? What about the right to get treated from a qualified doctor? Even the police can be held responsible if they fuck up or act grossly negligent! As well as Politicians! Give me one valid reason why a doctor should stand over the law? Yes he saves Lives! So do policemen and firefighters! Thats their job! And if they do it good, they get respect, tribute and a decent salary! So on the other hand its just fair that people have the right to take legal action against a doctor who offers a medicinal procedure that he hasnt down cold!

As an example: This month, a surgeon accidentially removed the healthy part of the lung from patient and another one removed a healthy breast! These were just some major cases that were big enough to make it into the german press! And now what? These people are pretty much fucked! The one with the wrong lung definately! Dont you think that people like them deserve compensation? And btw, almost all hospitals are insured against recourses! bye Eg

[neo1]

Try to be postive! I know its hard but when your dealing with pain, its important to keep an postive attitude! Are you from Australia? If not, you could try some Kratom! Its a herb that is very powerful in regard to chronic pain! And if i were you, i´d try to get some Medicinal marijuana! As its not very clear what causes Interstitial Cystitis, it might be worth a try! bye Eg

yes, i will try it.

Thanks

Jeremy

[neo1]

Why should Doctors be the only professional guild that cant be held responsible for medical malpractice? What about the right to get treated from a qualified doctor? Even the police can be held responsible if they fuck up or act grossly negligent! As well as Politicians! Give me one valid reason why a doctor should stand over the law? Yes he saves Lives! So do policemen and firefighters! Thats their job! And if they do it good, they get respect, tribute and a decent salary! So on the other hand its just fair that people have the right to take legal action against a doctor who offers a medicinal procedure that he hasnt down cold!

As an example: This month, a surgeon accidentially removed the healthy part of the lung from patient and another one removed a healthy breast! These were just some major cases that were big enough to make it into the german press! And now what? These people are pretty much fucked! The one with the wrong lung definately! Dont you think that people like them deserve compensation? And btw, almost all hospitals are insured against recourses! bye Eg

because they all "WILL" "Black ball" your ass!!!! That's why!! and then when you really need the help, you won't get it!!!! Life or death, pretty hard position to be in hun????? and if you are known as a doctor suer, you won't get treated, that's what wrong with it!!!

Edited February 26, 2009 by neo1

[MindExpansion]

No, not because of fear or retribution, but because people are taking legal action when the case is not one of malpractice, but one of unavoidable situation, in fact there are frequently instances where people sue doctors because they saved their lives, but didnt save them from some unavoidable brain damage or something else etc.

Litigation for malpractice is ok, but litigation for unavoidable circumstances are such issues that they are crippling doctors both financially and regarding what they are willing to try to save someone. Financially the trickle down effect costs the people, docs pay FAR more for insurance, so they charge more, so medicare has to give them more (if they bulk bill), so people pay more tax. It is often so ridiculous as to be compared to people slipping on a footpath and suing the owner. Litigation where a doctors errors have honestly cost the patient emotionally or financially in a way that was TRULY due to malpractice, is a different story. I at no point suggested that doctor's should be above the law or above litigation, but if people keep suing doctors will simply have to stop treating some people, or trying new or radical things, for example some surgeons now outright refuse to operate on smokers due to the risks involved in both GA and recovery, because when shit goes wrong because the patient had a few sneaky smoked the day before the op they blame the doc and sue him to shit.

Peace

[Evil Genius]

Fair enough. Isnt it so that patients need to sign a document that exludes the liability in difficult surgeries? Thats the case in germany! It mainly applies for some kind of brain surgeries! bye Eg

Neo1, you sound more relaxed now! I´m proud of you!