Quarantine questions.. (WHAT THE HELL)

[dirt]

Stonehenge:

 Can anybody give me an example of a successful plant that does not produce seeds? I don't mean a plant that does a lot of vegetative growth such as water hyacinth (sp?) Show me one example of an invasive plant that almost never sets seed.

what about Tradescantia albiflora. if salvia was to become a weed in australia i imagine it would be disspersed in the same way, as trad is. besides humans anmials trad is mostly dispersed via gravity and water.

its not uncommon for a speices to sit for many years and be non invasive and then all of a sudden become a major problem.

caution always needs to be exerted when planting possible invasive plants near bushland. think about the plant how it reproduces, if it sets seed think about how seed is dispersed, wind, birds ect before buying or planting. happy gardening dirt.

[Auxin]

"First, as has been admited, it is not invasive anywhere in the world."

Noone can say that for a fact- you can only say it hasnt yet 'invased' anywhere in the world. At one point the same could have been said for the cane toad, kudzu (the vine that ate the south), wisteria, henbit, etc.

"Salvia has been around for centuries if not millions of years. The fact that it has not spread farther in all that time tells you that it does not thrive well in most environments."

It hasnt spread beyond its native range because it didnt have an escape vector- now it does, globalized humans.

"It seems the idea of bringing in outside plants is a hot button subject with some of you."

Their unique native plants and wildlife are being driven to extinction- If I were in that situation I'd practice extreme caution too!

Plus if it did get established in a rainforrest it would set the anti-salvia law in stone. It would let the government stick out their tounge and say- 'see it IS a problem and its users are willing to destroy our country just to get it!' True or not thats what they'd say and it would result in a drug war.

[Guest d0tb0y]

Torsten:

TC plants of permitted species are fairly easy to import unless they are in certain high risk disease categories (like banana, beans....).

TC tubes have to use clear agar and may not contain biostats. They have to arrive via the 'nursery stock' division of aqis in canberra. Swapping with NZ is probably the hardest thing you can do. Both countries are really difficult. Most other countries will merely inspect TC tubes and then release them.

Clear agar.. What about normal agar, that's translucent but has that yellow tinge? The problem isnt exporting, im sure that can be arranged but importing from the US is my main concern. US is also very strict because of all this terrorist stuff i think.

[Torsten]

Originally posted by Stonehenge:

Lets look at the facts. First, as has been admited, it is not invasive anywhere in the world.

yes, but as I already said, a plant may not go weedy until it has been introduced into another environment. One classic example I can give you is one we have created at Wandjina. There is a Plectranthus species which is listed as endangered in australia. it is native to a small area of coastal cliffs a mere 20-50km from here. I propagated this plant in the nursery 4 years ago and it has gone rampant. It pops up everywhere and can be quite vigorous in comparison to other plants. A dramatic change in situation from a plant that is facing almost certain extinction in its original habitat.

Most plants that have become weeds in australia (or any other country really) were previously not a weed, so this first point is really quite irrelevant in assessing the possible weediness of salvia. if salvia had been grown in garden of subtropical countries for 20 or 50 years without causing any problems, then i would probably agree with you that in most climates it is a safe plant to grow near native habitat. But salvia has not been grown in neglected gardens for that long and hence we have to assume it hasn't had a chance to escape yet.

Secondly, its only native habitat is in one region of mexico.

A fairly large region.

Salvia has been around for centuries if not millions of years. The fact that it has not spread farther in all that time tells you that it does not thrive well in most environments.

Some of these comments are beneath you. Virtually every weed has existed in its own space for hundreds or thousands of years before some vector took it to a new habitat where it then became weedy. Obviously for a non-seeding plant this vector has to be one that spreads it vegetatively. I have already given you several samples of non-seeding species that have behaved well in their native habitat, but when taken to new habitats have had disastrous effects. I really don't understand why you can't see the parallels between salvia and Piper auritum for example.

Also, many weeds we have in australia are not weedy anywhere else.

Thirdly, it does not set seed normally and most seeds that are produced do not germ.

I've already said that proliferations by seed is a thoretical problem, not a practical one. My argument is based on the vegetative spread.

This is a characteristic of a species that is dying out.

Here is another one of those comments that you couldn't have thought about all that much. We've already established that many weeds do not produce seed. They simply don't need to. So how can this be a characteristic of a dying species?? Makes no sense.

Can anybody give me an example of a successful plant that does not produce seeds?

You're not paying attention. I already gave you one twice. But I can't believe I forgot Tradescantia, as this is one of the nasty weeds we are battling (anyone got any ideas of which herbicide will kills this, as we have not had any success with any of the less nasty ones).

I don't mean a plant that does a lot of vegetative growth such as water hyacinth

Why not?? Salvia's vegetative growth rate is not far from that of water hyacinth (at least where I live).

When you put together the facts that it is only found naturally in one small part of the world, doesn't set seed normally and has never been invasive and you have the portrait of a vanishing species, not an invader.

Or you have a plant that hasn't got a vector to get out of its habitat, but can be quite weedy when introduced into a new habitat.

If people want to have a knee jerk response that no outside plant should be introduced to Australia regardless of what it is, then that is your opinion.

We have probably introduced more species to australia than almost any other individual. However, we are extremely careful about this. We use a process much stricter than the national quarantine process to assess if a plant can be a threat... not just in our climate, but in other parts too. No, we are not against imports.... and no, this is not a kneejerk reaction. This is a reaction to seeing this plant perform extremely well in these parts and because we would hate for this community to be responsible for introducing another species that causes fourther extinction of natives.

However, I would like to see some evidence of that because what I've heard has been the opposite.

As I said, I have requested info from a few people i feel whose opinion on this you will respect. I did this for my own peace of mind, as you may be right and the status in its native range may be different to the reports I have had. However, this is all irrelevant in assessing the damage it can do here. About the only evidence I can produce for that is to show you just how vigorous salvia grow around here. keeping in mind that the last 2 wet seasons were drought, I doubt we have even seen the full potential of salvia yet.

I'm not trying to get into a big argument or to make it personal. I had no idea of the vehemence my proposal would generate. It seems the idea of bringing in outside plants is a hot button subject with some of you.

I am very protective of the australian native landscape, just as I am protective of natives everywhere. But you won't see me making these comments about most other plants. I have good reason to be urging caution about salvia. And at the very least I feel we should do a trial in a less sensitive area than a national park rainforest, before we committ to something we may not eb able to correct again. Most weeds and pests were imported for the best reasons and their detrimental effect discovered to everyone's surprise. This community should err on the side of caution rather than to be as careless as everyone else.

[Torsten]

dotboy - it needs to be clear enough to see possible contamination. normal agar will be fine if properly prepared.

[nabraxas]

 

quote:

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If people want to have a knee jerk response

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settle down geezer, all you've had is polite, reasonable & well argued replies.

a kneejerk reaction would probably involve a fair amount ov abuse

[Torsten]

discussion continued in new thread "salvia .... threatened or feral"

[Guest d0tb0y]

i tihnk i just work in australia when someoen outside austraila needs something from me they can deal with it

hell once i get started and get this ball rolling nothing will stop me not eevn quarantine.. ill overrun the world muhahha

[Rev]

Torsten:

Originally posted by Stonehenge:

The are only a few countries where salvia is likely to be a problem. Many asian rainforests are too hot. .

um... Well most SE asian LOWLAND rainforest is too hot - but nearly ALL of that is gone or will be in less than 10 years.

There are huge areas of relatively untouched montane RF which cross the boundaries between tropical, subtropical, temperate and even cold climate as you ascend.

There are apples grown in Java and Rhododendrons grow on the peaks of PNG.

I think Salva would be very much at home in some of the places i took a look at..

when i said plant it in the rainforest BTW i was specifically referring to any rainforest I personally owned (or planted - no shortage of cleared land for that) - not national parks which you should treat as sacrosanct

State forests are fair game though as they exist for our economic and cultural gain as i private property which round here anyway is pretty much all Camphor and privet.