Quarantine questions.. (WHAT THE HELL)

[Guest d0tb0y]

Condition C5174

The following species of plants contain drugs or precursors of drugs that are listed as prohibited under Customs (Prohibited Imports) Regulations 1956 (including amendments up to 10 November 2000). The Customs Regulations also prohibit the importation of all goods from Iraq or goods of Iraqi origin from any country. Written permission from the Minister of Foreign Affairs for the importation of these plants or parts of plants, including seeds, is required prior to AQIS processing an Import Permit application or Quarantine Entry for the imported goods.

Consignments of any of these plants or parts of plants, including seeds, found by AQIS Officers in imports, shall be referred to the Australian Customs Service. The quarantine import conditions for these plants or parts of plants can be found on ICON under the plant species name. If the plant species can not be found, e-mail the ICON Administrator or ring an AQIS Office.

* Argyreia nervosa

* Cannabis sativa (Marijuana) - Cannabis and cannabis resin

* Catha edulis

* Erythroxylon spp. (Cocaine)

* Ipomoea hederacea

* Ipomoea tricolor

* Ipomoea violacea

* Lophophora Coulter - Any species of this genus

* Papaver bracteatum

* Papaver sominferum (opium poppy)

* Piper methysticum (Kava)

* Piptadenia peregrina (Anadenanthera peregrina)

* Rivea corymbosa

australia has gone nuts if we arent allowed to buy catha edulis seeds, omfg. Btw, i know SAB sells HBWR seeds, these are probably mostly imported, if so, that means that torsten would have had to get 'written permission from the forgein affairs minister' every time he wanted to import seeds. Is that right T?

Because thats like. what the hell. "Hi i need to import 10kg of woodrose seeds for an ethnobotanical company" <--- chances look slim..

[Guest d0tb0y]

I want to import/export plant tissue cultures, just called em up and referred me to that site. The site only lists orchids for tissue culture. Does that mean any other tissue culture is legal if they have nothing against it?

[gomaos]

Dotboy, I'm almost certain SABs hbwr seeds are not imported.

Although I have no information at all about it, my assumption is that all of sab's hbwr seeds are grown locally.

In fact, if I was a slave, and had a slave driver to kick me in the ass, I could grow as many hbwr seeds as SAB does on my small block here.

But luckily I'm not a slave,

and I just keep it nice and easy,

and I'm not greedy for money

because many people are

and i don't want to be

but hbwr are pretty easy to grow

just throw all the fertilizer and water and sun you got at them (in summer)

and you will have results....

just imagine having acres of rainforest country,

the natural habitat of hbwr

where's the problem?

And my comment to

AUSTRALIAN CUSTOMS:

You suck and need to be sacked

(under a new government!)

[Guest d0tb0y]

Yeah bloody oath.

Khat plants as a precursor to illegal drugs my ass. Chewing 10 or so leaves is less than a cup of coffee yet you'll let me import coffee you crazy terrorist asses.

Either way i just got my new growroom setup so i might trellis some nice stuffs up the walls, woodrose sounds nice

[Torsten]

Dotboy, that list is not the half of the story!!!

basically, any seed or material that contains any illegal drug as listed in schedule 4 of the customs act is also deemed a prohibited import. This means that most seeds of the Convolvulaceae family are illegal as they contain LSAs and in fact I have had quite a few species confiscated (small seed packs only). basically, I could give a huge list of plants that are theoretically illegal (literally many thousands!!!), but I am not going to make their life that easy

The way the system works is that if they bust a shipment they will send you a note and a registered letter informing you of the fact that you broke the law. Then, if you do it again they will prosecute. I figure most people are safe just importing a single packet at a time and not doing it again.

We imported our last lot of HBWR about 5 years ago (not being aware of the laws and consequently getting busted for it). About 3 years ago we finally found a local supplier (no, we don't have time to grow them ourselves). These days we import very little in the way of 'possibly offensive' plant. I just don't have the nerves to deal with the pricks at customs anymore. We encourage local growers to supply us with reliable locally grown products, which ensures that any customs rules will not affect us and you.

if you do a search on these forums you will find a post where I outline the way the TGA actually determines what is allowed into oz and what isn't. Customs only enforces the TGA rulings.

As for importing TC tubes, you will need to find out the species, then look it up on the ICON database (AQIS website) and then go from there. If it is permitted then you will need to follow the import rules for that species and for TC tubes. if assessed and prohibited, then forget about it. If unassessed, then you can apply for a WRA (weed risk assessment) and pay $60. They are a lot of work though.

Seed is a lot simpler. If you're into orchids, then you may want to have a chat to Daniel. he is currently learning orchid TC from darklight and we will soon also start importing seed. Probably eventually also TC tubes.

[Rev]

gomaos:

just imagine having acres of rainforest country,

the natural habitat of hbwr

where's the problem?

um well apart from introducing a vigorous weed!

If i had cares or rainforest i cerainly wouldnt be planting something with the reproductive capacity of woodrose on it!

I think the thought of it going feral in our rainforests is disturbing. Plant salvia instead - at least it rarely seeds and doesnt strangle things.

besides what would you do with the vines as they scramble to the top of the trees - like to one at your place? itd be unharvestable unless you planned to clearfell.

Garden fences and small urban trees in (grassy recreational) parks and gardens are perfect

all accessible, all controllable

full sun gives the best yields by far of seed at the expense of useless luxuriant growth - thats right - the more compact vines getting full sun in harsh conditions put more into reproduction.

[nabraxas]

interesting reply reville.

-if i could go off topic for abit, in the UK there's problems w/rhodedendrons(?sp) going feral- there's the famous 'mother of a million'- they really are a problem, yet here even friends who are into getting rid ov introduced species like agapanthus, have never heard ov rhodedendron as a problem.--is that because the aus climate is soo different from the himalayas, or because the symbiotic fungus that it needs to grow is incapable ov flourishing here?

also having opium poppy seed on that list is a laugh, when you can buy it at coles.

[planthelper]

:D :D salvia in the rainforrest. :D :D

[Torsten]

Please folks DO NOT INTRODUCE WEEDS TO RAINFOREST.

Our rainforests are already under so much pressure from weeds that very few of them have not already been compromised with great detrimental effect. The great diversity of rainforest is easily reduced by such species. When you go to the Daintree you can see the damage the captain cook vine is doing up there. It is so similar to HBWR that I originally mistook it for same. It scambles up trees, then covers the tops with its large leaves, totally shading the tree. The tree dies and leaves a hole in the canopy. This would be a normal process for a rainforest if it happened occasionally, but this vine is doing it to virtually EVERY tree.

The open spaces are then populated by other weeds, including trees that will forever prevent native rainforest trees from growing there. Such weed trees work hand in hand with choking vines to reduce a piece of healthy and diverse rainforest to a weed forest of much lower diversity in a matter of a few years!!

Many of the weeds are spread by tourists (esp vehicles) and we found that many of the locals don't even know the difference between weeds and natives anymore.

The Daintree is the forest with the greatest biodiversity IN THE WORLD! and we allow this to happen to it.

As for planting salvia in the rainforest, I think this is just as irresponsible. Salvia will happily grow in state forest gullies and other areas that have already been geatly compromised. Rainforest gullies are sensitive ecosystems and salvia is a very vigorous plant that can easily smother whole communities of natives. The fact that water courses run along such gullies often means that you have little control where more propagating material will end up. if you need to plant near creeks in such sensitive areas, then make sure this is within coee of the rainforest margin, with the water flowing OUT of it. This ensures that any cuttigns will only flow downstream into already compromised land.

Consider the effect of what you do, not just for the next few years, but for decades to come. There are plenty of environmentally friendly options. Make use of state forests as these are being logged anyway.

As for rhododenrons, they simply don't grow well enough in oz. They are OK in winter in Vic, Tas and SA, but in summer they suffer greatly. Any further north and they simply don't survive.

[nabraxas]

THANKYOU Torsten. i have spent enough weekends ov backbreaking labour removing non-natives from down here, i've been to the Daintree- the Mrs loves it; it's a shame the state ov it, as seen from the road, through the red dust- i wouldn't know about non-natives, but having a road go right through it seemed odd; & i've read that the road screws up alot ov species terratories.

[Stonehenge]

I agree with Torsten though I can't see salvia becoming a nuisance. It's only found naturally in parts of mexico if it even still exists in the wild there. If it could be introduced elsewhere and take hold it would be a good thing, imo. There is no chance of it taking over or doing damage since it's been unable to survive and has never taken over anywhere. I do agree that weeds are a problem but see no solution to it. We have the same thing happening in the states. Laws exist but don't stop it from happening.

Stoney

[Plantsoma]

Education & awareness are the keys to minimising weeds. If more people know of the destruction of ecosystems caused by weeds, and the difficulty in removing weeds once established (as can often damage the ecosystem more) we can reduce the future damage greatly and clean up what we can sustainably.

Loss of natural habitat is a major problem around the world, and i believe that rainforest that is still indigineous should be left that way, no matter how little the 'percieved' impact may be, there is a lot going on in the insect world we sometimes neglect.

[Adrian]

Okay, I still have a bit of work in preparation to do (& I'm still waiting for an e-mail regarding tis cough, cough

I'll be bringing a project proposal with me to EB03.

It's a co-operative initiative that has massive potential.

I'm currently working my ass off to turn this idea from just massive potential into a reality.

Your thoughts & feedback would be hugely appreciated.Please have a look.

Here is the draft: NEED 4 WEED

I will post this a new topic.

[ 02. November 2003, 11:40: Message edited by: Adrian ]

[Torsten]

nabraxas, one of the main problems is that most people don't know what is native and what isn't. And obviously in a place like the daintree the weeds will be of a rainforest nature and will blend in perfectly.

Rev told me a story about wildflower tours in WA, where the busses stop at fields of flowering weeds and the tourists all go oooohhhh and ahhhhh and snap away with their disposable cameras.

Education is the key.

Stonehenge - Salvia has not become a weed anywhere because it hasn't been taken to any suitable places except maybe Hawaii. You should see the stuff grow around here during the wet season!! There are plenty of aquatic and marginal weeds that do not produce by seed. In Europe Sweet flag (Acorus calamus) is a good example. Around here they are usually asian herbs. Salvia's perfect habitat is in a climate somewhere between our subtropical climate and the full tropics in northern australia. I can guarantee that if a salvia plant is planted fairly high upstream on permanent creeks (spring fed), then it will line the full creekbank all the way down to more open country in a matter of just a few years.

I still have contact to some of the people farming and wildharvesting salvia in mexico and this is exactly what they do to increase their patches.

Don't understimate this plant in the right climate.

[nabraxas]

totally agree w/the education thing, but it goes further.

here the local council plants agapanthus on the nature strips. obviously they haven't been educated.

however it's on a list ov plants that will soon be banned from all nurseries-- when it cannot be bought anywhere, the need to educate declines & the number ov irresponsible idiots who'll never learn becomes less ov a problem.

[Stonehenge]

Torsten, I don't know if I'm underestimating the plant (salvia) or not. I do know it's hard to even keep it alive indoors and it has never been a problem anywhere. You seem to regard it as an obnoxious weed which it isn't. If it had the potential to do any damage it would have shown up by now and it hasn't. I say give salvia all the breaks it can get and hope and pray it gets reestablished in the wild somewhere. If it happens in Australia it would be a feather in you guy's hat. Far from being an invasive weed, it's an endangered species that needs a helping hand.

Stoney

[Adrian]

I think that Torsten is saying that it can/ will/ would/ could or should become weedy if in the right situation.

Obviously a house would be the most unusual of habitats for a plant species to adapt to (irregular rainfall, dry unfresh air etc

Until it bacame banned here I never had any trouble growing Salvia, even outdoors where the temp has been around, possibly below 0.5C

In areas nearby there are no frosts and only ocassional snow (i.e ~ 1/7yrs).

I personaly think that this is almost close enough for plants to become well established.

If a little snow knocks them back they should regenerate from the roots.

Just a thought.

[Torsten]

Originally posted by Stonehenge:

Torsten, I don't know if I'm underestimating the plant (salvia) or not.

I can safely say that you are

Please consider this.... in mexico the farmers and wildharvesters simply strip the leaves off the stems then break the stem into a few pieces and throw them around to increase the size of the patch. or if they develop a new patch they simply walk along and drop these sections on the ground. If it is moist enough they will all root in a matter of a few days.

We only think of weeds in terms of bird and wind dispersal, but many aquatic and marginal weeds do not even produce seeds.... and yet they are often very troublesome weeds. I have personally seen how salvia takes off in australian rainforest conditions (no, not in the rainforest itself) and all it needs is a vector to spread it. Seasonal torrents washing down mountain sides are perfect.

The other thing to consider is that salvia MAY seed. Menehune Gardens in Hawaii one year went to pollinate their flowers by hand and found that they had already produced a fair amount of seed by themselves. It appears Hawaii has the right pollination vector. This could also happen in australia.

Salvia is not rare or endagnered in its native habitat. I understand that it is actually quite weedy there. Much of its supposed rare and endangered status was fabricated to elevate prices.

I do know it's hard to even keep it alive indoors and it has never been a problem anywhere.

Your problems in keeping it alive do not provide any indication of the plant's vigor. While I find it virtually ridiculous how anyone could stuggle with such a weedy plant, I myself have no ends of trouble keeping something like Desmanthus illinoensis alive... which is also a weed. obviously plants require certain conditions to go ballistic and these conditions do not exist in your part of the world.

The are only a few countries where salvia is likely to be a problem. Many asian rainforests are too hot. But australia has tropical, subtropical and temperate rainforests. I believe that the subtropical is probably the most suitable for salvia.

You seem to regard it as an obnoxious weed which it isn't.

Well, actually it is. Where it is planted it is very rampant and smothers everythign else. Salvia ill grow to 2m in a matter of a few weeks if in the right conditions. the it will fall over and will reshoot from every node. Single plants have in a mere 2 years grown into patches over 40m wide ! The mode of spreading ensures that everythign in its path that is less than 1m tall is smothered to death.

If it had the potential to do any damage it would have shown up by now and it hasn't.

Famous last words. Quite silly really. Salvia in australia was probably not planted in the ground until 3 or 4 years ago. Until then it was kept very secure in pots. But even those plantings were in less than suitable ground and in private gardens. Only in the last year or two have some people taken it upon themselves to spread it into the australian forests. While I applaud the concept on a political level, I do feel that the choice of forest was not wise.

In Hawaii plenty of people have commented on how out of control salvia gets and how its a good thing it doesn't produce seed. Salvia doesn't need seed if it has shortsighted trippers doings its work for it.

I say give salvia all the breaks it can get and hope and pray it gets reestablished in the wild somewhere.

You say that as if salvia was threatened in some way. It's common as muck in mexico and has already found a happy home in hawaii.

If it happens in Australia it would be a feather in you guy's hat. Far from being an invasive weed, it's an endangered species that needs a helping hand.

Get your facts straight please. It is NOT an endangered species. And if this plant only colonises the one national park I know it has been planted in, then it could easily be responsible for wiping out several other marginal species which are in fact endangered already.

And btw, if you still don't believe me that a plant that doesn't seed can't be a weed, then maybe you should do some reading on Piper auritum. No seed. grows to 4m. Propagates by falling over and getting washed down creeks. Major pest in Hawaii and many south american and asian regions. Eradication extremely difficult. Nonetheless a very interesting plant.

[Guest d0tb0y]

Torsten thanks for the information on importing TC's.. My problem with icon is that i have NO interest in orchid TC's and i cant seem to find out why people like orchid TC'ing. It must have a high viability and therefore is the 'easiest' or 'most willing' plant to be TC'd. I am planning to do most of my TC work within australia, but none of the plants will be orchids! All will be legal, mind you, but my main focus was protoplast fusion techniques.. I want to force-hybridise some plants, and i have a friend in newzealand i'd like to swap cultures with. Icon only lists TC with orchids so i might give them a call. I dont think my chances are high because i dont think they will like me sending ANYTHING with agar in it.

If i cant do this then i might just grow out the TC'd plants in question and see if i can ship the live material. Though i dont know what they would be more likely to let through.. 1 plant cutting or an agar dish with wierd blobs on it.. Probably a plant thanks to the danm terrorists. (No quarantine, i did NOT put anthrax samples on my agar dish..)

[Torsten]

TC plants of permitted species are fairly easy to import unless they are in certain high risk disease categories (like banana, beans....).

TC tubes have to use clear agar and may not contain biostats. They have to arrive via the 'nursery stock' division of aqis in canberra. Swapping with NZ is probably the hardest thing you can do. Both countries are really difficult. Most other countries will merely inspect TC tubes and then release them.

[Stonehenge]

Torsten, your argument consists of maybe this and maybe that. The fact remains that it is not invasive anywhere. You seem to regard the possibility that it can become established as a threat. Show me one place where it has driven out native species.

"It's common as muck in mexico"

It is disappearing even in Mexico, it's native home. This is due largely to over harvesting of wild plants but it is happening none the less. About the only place you see it anymore is in cultivated plantations. Wild salvia is becoming extremely rare.

"Get your facts straight please"

I would say the same.

[ 05. November 2003, 06:42: Message edited by: Stonehenge ]

[Darklight]

Stonehenge:

The fact remains that it is not invasive anywhere.

It's not invasive anywhere *yet*. This is no justification for introducing it into the wild and not expecting it to reach the right microclimate in which to realise its weed potential.

Just because it may be self limiting in its spread by virtue of the climate that it thrives best in doesn't mean it couldn't wreak heaps of damage.

Camphor laurel, ( Cinnamomum camphora ) is a prime example of an introduced ornamental that is used as a street tree in parts of Australia, apparrantly behaving itself quite nicely til it got up north, where it constitutes a major weed and out competes native species in a big way.

I believe that trees elsewhere are still regarded as well behaved ornamentals, but in Byron Shire and surrounding areas the damage is extremely obvious and landowners are required to remove them- which is quite a task.

Other species such as water hyacinth are insidious and difficult to remove for reasons other than their height and root structure and the notion of deliberately attempting to add more to a substantial environmental burden is bizarre

If it had the potential to do any damage it would have shown up by now and it hasn't.

Wrong. It just hasn't been released into the right microclimate yet. The fact that it 'may not happen' doesn't mean it won't. Any plant has weed potential- it just needs opportunity.

We have a fair range of climate and soil types in Australia- and not much of the original vegetation left in most of them. We're not some big dry country with uniform vegetation we can afford to lose a few of- the good remnant pockets remaining are diverse and unique in climate, vegetation and geography. The locals get a bit passionate ( most not nearly as often as we should tho ) about anything which has the potential to compromise that integrity.

[Torsten]

Originally posted by Stonehenge:

Torsten, your argument consists of maybe this and maybe that.

Actually, I gave you a lot of facts which are plenty reaosn enough to at the very least urge caution, including:

* comparable species with the same spread mechanisms

* spread rates of salvia in the LOCAL climate

* mechanisms of choking out other plants (most marginal plants are less than 1m)

* vector driven vegetative spread.

I have also speculated on things like seeding/pollination and the most likely temperature zone for ideal growth, but these are not part of my core argument.

The fact remains that it is not invasive anywhere.

Most of australia's weeds are not invasive or noxious anywhere else. Admittedly, australia's worst weeds are also weeds alsewhere, but our problem is not simply our worst weeds, but the sheer number of weeds that occupy almost every niche in the australian native ecosystems. Locally one of the worst weeds is Camphor laurel as darklight mentioned. This is not a weed anywhere else except two locations in australia and as far as I know not anywhere else in the world. The two locations in Oz are 1500km apart (north / south), but happen to have almost exactly matching climates. The idiots in the northern region still haven't realised that they are being inundated with this weed.

Anyway, australia has been the first place for many plants to go weedy, so there is simply no validity or relevance in such a statement.

You seem to regard the possibility that it can become established as a threat. Show me one place where it has driven out native species.

Obviously a plant that has only in the last 10 years been planted anywhere near new habitats worldwide doesn't show up as a weed yet. First you need neglected plots, washed away 'cuttings', or idiots planting it in the rainforest before it can get a chance to establish itself. It simply hasn't been exposed to many habitats yet where it can escape.

It is disappearing even in Mexico, it's native home. This is due largely to over harvesting of wild plants but it is happening none the less. About the only place you see it anymore is in cultivated plantations. Wild salvia is becoming extremely rare.

What a load of nonsense. In the late 90's most salvia was harvested from wild stands and this did probably have some impact. However, it was harvested by local indians who would dry and pack it for the exportes to come and pick it up. One of my friends there (the largest salvia exporter) used to go horseback through the sierras to collect this stock from various villages. A soon as the indians realised they could make money they planted heaps and heaps of it. By 2000 or so the actual number of locations for growing salvia had increased dramatically. Then collecting from the indians became tedious and expensive (prices were dropping due to better supply) and some peope started to farm salvia instead or alongside coffee plantations. This made operations quicker and cheaper, but invited a lot of theft and dishonesty. There was a very big trade in ripped off salvia for a while (and probably still is). But it has simply become too expensive, tedious and timeconsuming to wildharvest salvia.... no matter what your local dealer will tell you. Add to that the mexican governments new salvia tax and the bottom line is that farming it is much cheaper and easier. Well, not as easy as ripping it off it seems.

There MAY have been a time when native salvia was under a bit of stress, but that passed when the indians planted lots of it to satisfy the increasing demand. But now, with less and less of it actually coming from the sierras, I wonder just how many more patches have been planted which go unused now.

In any case, why would harvesting it endanger it in any way? Think about it, the indians have to go deep into rough terrain to get to the wild stands. More than 80% of salvia's wet weight is stem. It is highly unlikely that they wold carry all that stem back to the village before stripping the leaves off. So they strip the leaves on site and leave the stems lying around the place.... or even while they keep walking around that gully. During the wet season virtually 100% of these stems would form roots and grow into new plants.

It also makes no sense that harvesting the tops will in any way hurt the plant. It may decrease its spread, but as it is the stems that are needed for spreading, and the stems are discarded on site, the net impact is probably zilch (or even positive due to increased spread and less crowding). The roots would still be in the ground, probably even with a substantial stump, as the lower leaves are useless (in commercial terms).

"Get your facts straight please"

I would say the same.

Just wondering if you have ANY contact to anyone researching this plant or working with it in its native habitat? It doesn't seem so, as you are echoing the stuff that has been around the web for years and which has no basis in fact.

I have asked some people with direct knowledge of this issue to comment and will post their responses here when I receive them.

[Stonehenge]

Lets look at the facts. First, as has been admited, it is not invasive anywhere in the world. Secondly, its only native habitat is in one region of mexico. Salvia has been around for centuries if not millions of years. The fact that it has not spread farther in all that time tells you that it does not thrive well in most environments. Thirdly, it does not set seed normally and most seeds that are produced do not germ. This is a characteristic of a species that is dying out. Can anybody give me an example of a successful plant that does not produce seeds? I don't mean a plant that does a lot of vegetative growth such as water hyacinth (sp?) Show me one example of an invasive plant that almost never sets seed. When you put together the facts that it is only found naturally in one small part of the world, doesn't set seed normally and has never been invasive and you have the portrait of a vanishing species, not an invader.

If people want to have a knee jerk response that no outside plant should be introduced to Australia regardless of what it is, then that is your opinion. However, there is zero evidence of it's potential to invade. As for mexico, my info came from a dealer in wholesale salvia as well as various reports. Torsten, you sneer at reports on the net which you describe as false. They may be false, all reports may be wrong and salvia may be florishing in the wild in mexico as you say. However, I would like to see some evidence of that because what I've heard has been the opposite.

I'm not trying to get into a big argument or to make it personal. I had no idea of the vehemence my proposal would generate. It seems the idea of bringing in outside plants is a hot button subject with some of you. I have no desire to injure peoples sensibilites. If I'm offending anyone by discussing this idea I will drop it.

Stoney

[Skulking Lurker]

One that I thought of. Even though Kikuyu will seed occasionally, under the right conditions, it certainly does not need to. It will invade, and has invaded many bush areas here in Western Australia without the help of seed distribution.

 

quote:

---

If people want to have a knee jerk response that no outside plant should be introduced to Australia regardless of what it is, then that is your opinion. However, there is zero evidence of it's potential to invade.

---

The same was said about cane toads... As for anything being introduced to our already diminished, and pressured, delicate rainforest ecology, including something like S. divinorum, which would find the conditions there as good as anywhere, would be most unwise. Kept to domestic gardens it should remain.