Dr Karl's disclosure on Aunty

[folias]

http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/stn/q&amp...es/051027-9.htm

check out this baby!

http://www.worldwidewattle.com/speciesgall...i_var_colei.jpg

Can't wait to get up into the NT some day and explore the trees up there!

On a negative note, a very famous ethnobotanists have been communicating publically in some global forums that some very, very rare species of Australian Acacia contain 3% DMT, when in fact, they don't! (more like 0.5-1%)

But people have been reporting 3% out of some strains of Acuminata recently...

Julian.

[ballzac]

I disagree with him that a new compound cannot be used to induce shamanic states. Really I only think it proves that there's no traditional use. I don't believe that petrol is involved in any formal shamanic ceremonies or anything, but personal use can sometimes be of a shamanic nature.

Also, I was unaware of historical use of DMT by Australian Aborigines. Is his claim in this regard accurate?

[shruman]

To cool for school. I love Dr Karl & yout to Julian

Hope you do get up there Julian.

[shruman]

Well it does'nt realy say acacias were used Ballzac, it just says psychotropics were used. He could of made it a little clearer. Wonder what plant parts?.

Edited November 18, 2008 by shruman

[Plantsoma]

Yeah, very misleading where he states psychotropic use and the next sentence refers to DMT in Acacia.

As far as i was aware the psychotropic use was related to the Duboisia sp and for the uneducated, it would be easy to assume he was refering to indigenous use of DMT, even though he does state further down that DMT needs a MAOI to be active orally. His 0.3% statement is, yeah, very innacurate. Who was his reference for that Julian?

I saw the Dr on the walk back through Sydney CBD after visiting the Botanic Gardens a few weeks ago. He was flogging his new book in a bookshop.

[gecko]

I met a guy earlier this year who has been working on aid projects in Sub-Saharan Africa for the last 15-20yrs.

He was involved, among other things, in the cultivation of Acacia colei , A.torulosa and another

species from NW Aus. (cant remember sp. name right now).

The seed of these species have now become an important food in Niger.

The roots bind the soil, fix nitrogen , trees provide shelter from the nasty winds that can ruin their traditional crops

of millet and the Acacia seed compliments the amino acid profile of their millet when added to their meals.

[occidentalis]

I don't think Dr Karl actually wrote that. It looks like 'Ryan' wrote it.

I have come across Acacia colei in the Pilbara and it definitely has a strong vibe about it.

[Micromegas]

Interesting info gecko, thanks. Many african plants certainly go well in Aus must be the other way too. Though I always wonder if an endemic species would have been better, despite the possible advantage of Australian acacias in africa. Too late anyway. DMT for Africans now.

Will have to check out this acacia. I thought the info from dr karl was a little misleading too.

[Plantsoma]

Yeah, i see 'Ryan' at the bottom too, didn't notice that before. Makes things a bit different. Very confusing all round It makes it look like Dr Karl has his stamp of approval on it.

[FancyPants]

Perhaps it's better to keep the masses mostly uninformed about certain trees unless they feel like it's something they would like to research better?

*shrug* I love Dr Karl though

[folias]

huh, yeah, thanks for the info Ryan! However you are!

>Also, I was unaware of historical use of DMT by Australian Aborigines. Is his claim in this regard accurate?

Yes.

Pituri is the obvious preparation nd there are many others...

I presume w/w means wet weight... so the dry weight would be something like 5-6% DMT, which means that sublingual ways of ingesting the tryptamines, and indeed smoking large amounts, could be very effective. Also, they do have some kind of MAOI's up there... which are very powerful too.

>Perhaps it's better to keep the masses mostly uninformed about certain trees unless they feel like it's something they would like to research better?

People who read Shaman Australis forums are not "the masses" per se... but represent many of the people in the world doing the research on such matters.

Besides, the more trees people know about, the more they can propogate the trees and do the research on them... especially when they are quite common like this one.

Julian.

[Micromegas]

>Also, I was unaware of historical use of DMT by Australian Aborigines. Is his claim in this regard accurate?

Yes.

Aside from one's intuitive feeling and a gander at aboriginal art (which is a valuable point of view IMO) is there actually any enthnobotanical/archaeological/historical documents stating that this is the case?

[gerbil]

Besides, the more trees people know about, the more they can propogate the trees and do the research on them... especially when they are quite common like this one.

LMAO

[FancyPants]

>Perhaps it's better to keep the masses mostly uninformed about certain trees unless they feel like it's something they would like to research better?

People who read Shaman Australis forums are not "the masses" per se... but represent many of the people in the world doing the research on such matters.

Besides, the more trees people know about, the more they can propogate the trees and do the research on them... especially when they are quite common like this one.

Julian.

No I meant any old Tom, Dick, or Harry listening to ABC radio... or right now listening to JJJ with Dr Karl since someone just called in about DMT being excreted in the human brain upon death.

And I hope people might be more forgiving with Acacia trees than pharma companies are with pretty much every other plant material found containing substances they can exploit

[Fenris]

I believe that certain important pieces of information should be transmitted by word of mouth to those who need/want to know.

I think it helps keep the integrity of the information and the resource.

A year ago 2 key words in google produced no usesful or informative hits, now there are at least half a dozen sites discussing the results, a year from now every tripper who can type will be able to find this information on 10 pages worth of hits.

Positives and negatives I guess.

[PD.]

Positives and negatives I guess.

Positives for those that dont know and negatives for those that do?

I dont think there is anyone that NEEDS to know at all but alot that desire to know, then coupled with the fraction of those whom actually act upon that information makes fuk all difference in the end imo.

[Fenris]

When does an innocent (or not so innocent) walk in the bush turn into suspicion and probable cause for a search? When this information is too easily available.

I'm not being elitist, self preservation (and longevity) is much higher on my list of priorities.

[mu!]

When does an innocent (or not so innocent) walk in the bush turn into suspicion and probable cause for a search? When this information is too easily available.

I'm not being elitist, self preservation (and longevity) is much higher on my list of priorities.

i dunno man that sounds a bit extreme doesnt it

[PD.]

Free information for all, isnt that what its all about. Its just the use of that information that is in question? Where does the line get drawn? I mean if you look hard enuff all the info is out there, its just not as obvious as a google search in alot/some cases, even then a google search will give ya fuk all. Like has been said, those that want to know ;).

[Chiral]

Positives for those that dont know and negatives for those that do?

I dont think there is anyone that NEEDS to know at all but alot that desire to know, then coupled with the fraction of those whom actually act upon that information makes fuk all difference in the end imo.

Positives for those that don't know..I'm going to sound like an elitist here but it is something worth considering..Is it a good thing that more and more people know and come on board..what are the ramifications of say 10 new people knowing and then they inform 2 of their friends each so the expansion rate of knowledge gets into quite high numbers relatively quickly..is this a good thing..? What would the consensus be if all of a sudden we see hundreds of people out in the bush ill informed damaging trees and causing environmental damage with their careless actions all to obtain something that they think is very cool and hip to take. Personally..it would be great to see a population turned on by mother nature..but at what cost to her. The authorities would be all over it like a cheap suit. Do I sound paranoid or elitist..maybe..but I think its something that needs consideration. 1 person tells 2, those 2 tell 3 more each..it will get out of control at some point I'm sure..clubbers who spawn from E and K seem to migrate out of that scene sooner or later and potentially look for further stimulation and harder and deeper experiences. I think sacrament will be the next bigish thing within 10 yrs, it seems inevitable..especially when you don't have to consult your local dodgy dealer and pay inflated prices for questionable substances. As usual when there is an explosion of a substance that is powerful and newish..there will allways be your local capitalist asshole who will want to corner the market and make a quid out of it..there allready is a few flouting there wares...I won't say what these pea brains are doing and for what cost but it makes me sick when i hear and see what they get up too. I have also come to the conclusion that certain individuals should not come into contact with any of this as they are mentally incapable of getting past their pitiful hobbies of fast cars, ridiculous haircauts and the abilty to take E and start fights in clubs and on the street..this to me shows some sort of malfunction in the pea they currently use as a device for not thinking with.. this is also exactly what I'm pointing at in that "negatives for those that do"..big time.

Now where did I put my cloud jar..?

H.

[folias]

micromegas wrote:

Aside from one's intuitive feeling and a gander at aboriginal art (which is a valuable point of view IMO) is there actually any enthnobotanical/archaeological/historical documents stating that this is the case

Nobody has the guts to do it, it seems to me and "they" keep this information secret... you just gotta trust me on this one, for me the anectdotes and information about aboriginal use of plants increases all the time... one day I'll collect some hard evidence about this... but I'm not ready. A few friends of mine have taken aboriginal plant medicine... but they just do it and don't kiss and tell, lots of people do. There is an agenda to keep it secret, but this should change - I think.

I really think people should stop being so secretive and protective... we are a country with a tiny population with incredible medicinal plants, that have the power to transform the mind... I'm sick of this pitiful judgement and cynical pseudo high brow smug knowitallness armchair sticklerness.

The aboriginals have this preparation that lasts 3 days at smoked DMT intensity... yeah, there is a reason they are holding back on mostly lamo white people... who need to pull their fist out of their leaden arse and get Serious.

And that means YOU!

Julian.

[FancyPants]

I really think people should stop being so secretive and protective... we are a country with a tiny population with incredible medicinal plants, that have the power to transform the mind... I'm sick of this pitiful judgement and cynical pseudo high brow smug knowitallness armchair sticklerness.

Well I can only speak on behalf of myself, but my opinion is coming from a pre-formed distrust of pharmaceutical companies, and not from the lofty heights of my white urban armchair highhorse.

[gerbil]

Definitely admire and respect your position and views Julian although my main concern regarding this sort of knowledge is environmental damage. I think as a society heavily based in cities we have completely lost touch with the land and the way it works, gaining plant knowledge and the process of harvest seems to take very little consideration to the ecology of the area.

I'm all for research and growing species, and i apologise for my cynical post above, it's not constructive and i apologies for being negative towards you, but i find it frustrating that it's often approached that acacias are common and resilient so people have the right to go and fell them, but now it seems to be that the message is people will cultivate the common species for this purpose. To me it's a good path, but practically i don't see it happening with common species which seems to be in opposition to the original wild live harvest thought.

I don't know how many times i've read of people felling many trees and still have not yet put a seed in the ground 'cause it takes too long to grow.

i think the spread of knowledge is excellent but comes at a cost, i mean phlebophylla damage is a good example even though we still have highly differing views on this plant.

If plant knowledge is spread, ecological knowledge and social change needs to preceed or highly accompany, and i don't think tryptamines will solely do this, rational minds in the current reality has a huge role IMO.

micromegas wrote:

Nobody has the guts to do it, it seems to me and "they" keep this information secret... you just gotta trust me on this one, for me the anectdotes and information about aboriginal use of plants increases all the time... one day I'll collect some hard evidence about this... but I'm not ready. A few friends of mine have taken aboriginal plant medicine... but they just do it and don't kiss and tell, lots of people do. There is an agenda to keep it secret, but this should change - I think.

I really think people should stop being so secretive and protective... we are a country with a tiny population with incredible medicinal plants, that have the power to transform the mind... I'm sick of this pitiful judgement and cynical pseudo high brow smug knowitallness armchair sticklerness.

The aboriginals have this preparation that lasts 3 days at smoked DMT intensity... yeah, there is a reason they are holding back on mostly lamo white people... who need to pull their fist out of their leaden arse and get Serious.

And that means YOU!

Julian.

[folias]

I think people in the cities can also be a bit precious... and have a lot of ideology... when it comes to plants.

A lot of the people who work with the tryptamines... are pretty careful and onto it. But a lot of people, they just don't know and why should we really blame them?

The problem is, we live in a society where it is not supposed to happen, that people harvest tryptamines from acacias.

But it is going to happen, more and more, so I think we should be aligned with something akin to harm reduction... and part of that is letting people know of the more common trees...

It would be good if people did more work and disclosed it around Melbourne... say...

For sure, there is Floribunda and Longifolia which are good sources of tryptamines... and people have reported finding trees that contain good amounts of tryptamines...

In NSW, there are obtusifolias right up and down the eastern seaboard, if you are prepared to drive around and do some walking in the bush!

I don't necessarily think we should discourage people from wild harvesting, because it is a valuable natural resource... and its human value is immeasurable.

But there is a lot involved in it... I do think the ecological damage that can occur from this is overrated, again - and doesn't appear as a major threat. (as much as clear felling in state forrests say)

We must remember, that most trees exist way beyond the tracks and trails and roads that human beings can access easily!

>I don't know how many times i've read of people felling many trees and still have not yet put a seed in the ground 'cause it takes too long to grow.

I have personally gotten thousands of seeds out to people and are aware of hundreds of tree growing because of that... a lot of people are very keen to grow these trees!

>i mean phlebophylla damage is a good example even though we still have highly differing views on this plant.

I agree with PD that phlebophylla damage is overrated... there are so many trees up there, most which humans would have a really hard time getting to...

Sometimes I think people just like to make a drama about all this... at the end of the day, I think we should be glad there are people out there doing the work of harvesting tryptamines and getting them to people... whether money is involved or not, what does it really matter? It would be great if there were more people out there doing this for free, and giving more out to people for free.

For sure, we should plant more trees, but also, people plant the trees when they realise the value of the trees and also, how much they like these species just in and of themselves.

Julian.