Bag searches in shops.

[ballzac]

I don't tell them to call the cops. They know they have that right.

[Teotzlcoatl]

I think he basically means- "Fuck off you goddamn, copper-wanna-be, go call the REAL police and get THEM to dedain me you jerk-off."

Or something along those lines... I donno... maybe I'm readin' into it wrong...

Was that close mark?

[ballzac]

I know, but I think it's better to just be polite and firm. Being a smart arse or losing your cool could come back to haunt you. If there are witnesses, it's best if you have been calm and not made any comments that might give witnesses the idea that you are being difficult.

[AndyAmine.]

Ive had those sensors go off on me plenty of times, usually because Ive bought some clothes that haven't had the tag deactivated, one jacket in particular did it all the time until I found the little bar stuck on the inside of one of the pockets.

I knew some shoplifters who when targeting a shop would often get the tags and put them in other peoples bags or on their clothes so the alarm keps going off, then place one under the inner sole of their shoe, walking in sliding the shoe along the ground so as not to set off the alarm, then when on the way out would lift their shoe to set it off.

They would keep doing this day after day so the guard would keep checking everybody (and them) with no result and much complaint until they had a situation where they would say they are being harassed + the guard would be REALLY sick of searching people and assume the sensor was faulty, in the end the guard would usually let them out even with the alarm going off so that the person could now take whatever they want.

I cant stand being singled by these people out either and this used to be a major problem for me particularly when I used to look and dress a certain way (much less now that I have a more respectable look about me) but their are lots of people who abuse privacy rights and guards sometimes have to put up with some really devious little cunts so I can understand how some of them become particularly untrusting and jaded not that its any excuse.

Its a shame that the way you look can effect your daily life in so many adverse ways however unfortunately I cant see that changing anytime soon.

More power to anybody who has the guts to stand up for their rights, I wish I did it more often.

Edited August 3, 2008 by AndyAmine.

[rahli]

i have no problem showing my bags at all? i mean i have nothing to hide. its not hat big a hassle, i usually offer mine before they ask.

why make life hard and embarress the shit out of some kid or other minimum wage earner?

i will leave it to the egotistical and the theives.

Yeah man, nothing worse then an eager testicle.

I always wait till I'm asked before getting my bags out

[incognito]

now THAT is militant! we all know what zac is gonna do now to the next 15 yr old boy behind the counter at BIG W who asks. watch the headlines.........

[Teotzlcoatl]

LOL. I got told "Nice day" by this lady walkin' out of a store.... she had been watching me and my girlfriend and I thought she gonna check our bags, so when she said "nice day", I quickly snapped "fuck off", lol whoops! You guys got me all geared up and now look what happened...

She was alittle shocked, I just walked faster, lol... Hope she wasn't too offended.

[ballzac]

when she said "nice day", I quickly snapped "fuck off", lol whoops! You guys got me all geared up and now look what happened...

Yeah, because swearing at employees is exactly what I was suggesting.

[nabraxas]

I worked at Coles briefly and during training I was told that although the sign at the front says it is a condition of entry that you show your bag

Coles no longer displays those signs & since joining Wesfarmers it is policy to not request a bag search, even if something in the bag has set off the alarms.

Also Coles no longer puts a store stamp on any ov it's products. Coles used to employ people to checkout markets & dodgy stores to see if they were selling stuff (batteries & razor blades) w/a Coles store stamp on it. No more.

Theft Australia wide went from $1 billion to $3 billion last year w/petrol being the number 1 stolen item, followed by razor blades.

With no bag searches & no security stamps it's basically "open season" for shoplifters at Coles. People are walking out with sports bags stuffed full ov batteries, razorblades, those tiny tubs ov eye cream worth $30 a pop....

Coles insurance rates have risen appropriately & that in turn has driven up prices more than the rise in petrol prices...

Crazy..

[Legba]

Occupational health & safety (OHS) guidelines direct people who have the 'check the bag' job to get the owner of the bag to check for them in case they have Nabraxas's mates razor blades or other potentially dangerous items. Knowing this, on several occasions when i have been asked 'can i look in your bag?' i have replied in an offhanded way 'yeah, sure. help yourself'. When they asked me to do it i said im not doin your job for ya and they left me be without checking. Of course i've never tried this while carrying contraband.

Knowing your rights is so important;even more so today. Check the never talk to the cops thread if you havent all ready. There are a few wanna-be cops in the security guard realms but not that many im my experience as a guard. (i wanted to be a test pilot for northrop, not a pig ) They are told to ask to search your bag by their employer. They dont have the right to detain you unless they are arresting you or have proof of you shoplifting but they do have the right to refuse you entry to the shop in the future. Being the law abiding citizen that i am, i like to offer my bag for them to search to see if they know their OHS.

[Teotzlcoatl]

I actually went and told that lady sorry today when I saw her in that same store.

[ballzac]

Coles no longer displays those signs & since joining Wesfarmers it is policy to not request a bag search, even if something in the bag has set off the alarms.

Also Coles no longer puts a store stamp on any ov it's products. Coles used to employ people to checkout markets & dodgy stores to see if they were selling stuff (batteries & razor blades) w/a Coles store stamp on it. No more.

Theft Australia wide went from $1 billion to $3 billion last year w/petrol being the number 1 stolen item, followed by razor blades.

With no bag searches & no security stamps it's basically "open season" for shoplifters at Coles. People are walking out with sports bags stuffed full ov batteries, razorblades, those tiny tubs ov eye cream worth $30 a pop....

Coles insurance rates have risen appropriately & that in turn has driven up prices more than the rise in petrol prices...

Crazy..

Do you have a source for this? Particularly that the lack of bag searches has caused an increase in shoplifting?

[ballzac]

On a similar note, if anyone has any statistics related to shoplifting and bag searches it would be good to see. Also, I think it's interesting that searching customers' bags is not on the Australian Fedral Police list of measures to take to prevent and detect shoplifting (shoplifting prevention and detection).

Edited August 5, 2008 by ballzac

[Vertmorpheus]

I reckon stores should take whatever they calculate their annual stock lossage to be, halve it, and put that much stock in an area marked "for the economically disadvantaged". Most people that can afford all they need wouldnt be seen dead in there, even your more uptight poor person would wait til noone was watching... anyone genuinely in need and hard up would wander in and fill a couple green bags, and good on them for it... to eat well you sometimes have to swallow your pride. They could even just stick all their "three days til best before date" stock in there, anything dented or dinged.

Then, anyone thats found to be pinching things from any other section of the store can be subject to mandatory prosecution to the fullest extent of the law or even beyond.Recover costs via community service, volunteer work, etc. make a big and completely public song n dance about it unless it can be shown they actually have some kind of mental or social disorder, etc. Remove the random chance and let everyone know where they stand.

Bag searches should be completely disallowed. When you enter a store, you should be weighed on a discrete apparatus (ie it doesnt display your weight, just records it and tags that figure with a number, which is then issued to you on a bit of paper like at the deli counter) then on the way out, weigh everyone again... any difference over a sensible margin of error should then alert security who are only allowed to ask "do you have anything about your person you may have forgotten to pay for?".. if nothing is forthcoming, they shouldnt be allowed to search anything at all, the cops should be paged and they can deal with it from there. The margin of error should cover say the snack you took in with you and gave to your child in the meantime (in that its just gone from your bag to their tummy, weigh parents n kids together, babies too) I'm sure people could still get the odd thing out but I reckon overall noone would be pissed off without a good reason too often and the stores would make more cash out of it.

Local stores wouldn't be stuffed with it but the big guys could cover costs easily and imagine how much cheerier the place would be. AND a lot of strugglers get to eat something besides pasta and rice for once.

A set of scales has to be cheaper than paying some guard to stand there and glare at school kids and nanas. Lets face it they rarely take issue with anyone that looks like a hardened criminal they just target people that look iffy but passive more often than not... hippies rather than bikies, haha.

VM

[nabraxas]

Do you have a source for this?

for the stop in bag searches i have seen an internal memo that went out to all Coles stores advising them ov the new policy.

for the rise in cost it was in the Herald Sun about 3 weeks ago, but i can't find a link.

for the increase in shoplifting i only have hearsay, but it seems reasonable that if you remove all forms ov security people will take advantage.

Edit: Actually they do still have the security cameras, but as most people know, 90% ov these are dummies & images from them count for nothing in court.

Infact the only cameras that Coles bothers about are the ones trained on the cash registers. Customers are free to steal hundreds ov dollars worth ov stock, but if a teenage checkout person takes 1 dollar from the till Coles will prosecute.

Edited August 5, 2008 by nabraxas

[ballzac]

I'm not convinced. You said yourself that petrol was the number one stolen item. Did it occur to you that with rising petrol prices, even if no one steals any more than they used to, the value of goods stolen will increase dramatically? Add to that the fact that as petrol prices increase people are more likely to steal it, and you have a huge increase in the cost of theft.

Considering that originally shoplifting at Coles would have only accounted for a small fraction of the overall cost of theft, shoplifting at Coles would have had to increase a thousandfold or something to increase the entire cost of theft to the nation by 200%.

You have no evidence for anything you claimed, and the main point of your last post (i.e. that the cessation of bag searches at coles has caused the cost of theft in Australia to increase dramatically) you now claim was hearsay (rumor)...but I suspect you just made it up.

[AndyAmine.]

You said yourself that petrol was the number one stolen item. Did it occur to you that with rising petrol prices, even if no one steals any more than they used to, the value of goods stolen will increase dramatically? Add to that the fact that as petrol prices increase people are more likely to steal it, and you have a huge increase in the cost of theft

Coles experinaced the same scenario when bulbs starting to double in prices every few months..

Ahh, those were the days.

[nabraxas]

Retail theft is expected to total $5.8 billion in 2008, which would constitute two percent of annual turnover, and petrol stations are only one of the many retailers that will feel the sting. Supermarkets and grocery outlets should also anticipate a jump in theft rates while consumers struggle to afford groceries.

http://www.retailtimes.com.au/index.php/ar..._nimble_fingers

The Australian Retailers Association says theft has jumped by $1.25 billion.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,...9-24218,00.html

i think that's the story i was referring to, but it's been shortened & doesn't include the total for '06 & '07, or the list that puts petrol top then razor blades.

the main point of your last post (i.e. that the cessation of bag searches at coles has caused the cost of theft in Australia to increase dramatically)

i can see why you would conclude that, but it's not what i meant.

i simply meant that with theft going up anyway, coles has made themselves an easy target by stopping bag searches.

You have no evidence for anything you claimed I suspect you just made it up.

them's fighting words. pistols at dawn?

Edited August 6, 2008 by nabraxas

[ballzac]

them's fighting words. pistols at dawn?

Haha, sorry. That's what happens when I post first thing in the morning.

[ballzac]

I went to Dan Murphy the other day. This was a different one where I have never been asked if I could show them what's in my bag before. I walked straight in, was there for less than a minute and grabbed the drink I was after. At the checkout, after she had told me the price, she took my card and before swiping it asked if she could look in my bag. I said, "no thank you." She asked why. I ignored the question and asked if she was going to sell me the bottle. She said no and that she was getting the manager. I asked for my card back, and she politely obliged. I made it clear that I was leaving without showing the contents of my bag regardless, but would really like to purchase the item. She said she couldn't sell it to me.

Now, if these bag searches are about security, then wouldn't it have been better to sell me the bottle. Then if they looked at security footage and saw that I had stolen something, they would have a way to track me down because I was paying by card. I feel that not being sold something for not showing the contents of my back is like being punished for 'insubordination'. I don't see how it could be good for business to turn down business. Not that they rely on my custom to survive, but it's still one less bottle they sold for absolutely no gain.

In case you were wondering, I was not buying a stubbie of toohey's red, I was buying a bottle of 12 year old Highland Park. On a side note, does anyone agree that the boys at Glenmorangie have been smoking something?

Edited October 11, 2009 by ballzac

[mountainmaniac]

I went to Dan Murphy's last night and purchased two small bottles of imported beer. After I had paid for them I was about to put them in my bag, and the clerk asked me if I minded if he looked in my bag. I politely said, "yes I do mind, thanks for asking." I continued to put the beers in my bag and he asked me again if he could look in my bag. I said, again politely, "No thank you." I left the store and heard him calling security. A security guard came out of the shop, followed by the clerk that served me, and at least one other person from the store. The security guard told me that I have to return the items. I told him that I paid for the items and I am not giving them back. He asked to see the receipt, and I handed it to him. He then said that I had to show him what was in my bag. I asked, "I have to show you what's in my bag?" and he said, "Yes." I started unzipping my bag, but I didn't want there to be any confusion about whether I was consenting or not, so I turned to the others who were there, and said loudly, "I want it noted that I am not consenting to this search." The security guard said,"Clearly you are." I zipped up my bag again, and asked him again if I had to show him what was in my bag. He said, "I'd like you to." Haha. I asked again and he said, "you should." I asked a third time, and he said, "If you don't, then I'll show the footage we have of you to the police." I couldn't help laughing out loud at this one. He knew this was going downhill for him. I said, "That's fine." In retrospect, probably not smart to consent to something like that either, but I think I did pretty well over all. He said that I was permanently banned from the store from now on. I put out my hand for my receipt back, and he handed it to me and I walked away.

I generally refuse to let people look in my bag. I usually just get a bewildered look from the checkout chick at coles before I leave. To be fair, I haven't been asked to be searched at a coles in a couple of years. They seem to be pretty good these days. Just one more reason to prefer coles over safeway. I have at times needed to have a quick discussion on legal issues with a security guard at electronics stores or whatnot before I go. Sometimes they’re angry sometimes they’re not. But this is the first time I've been repeatedly lied to about my rights, and bullied into almost giving up these rights. It was an interesting experience. I think the hardest part is that you get an adrenaline rush, and it makes you want to either get angry, or to just do what they say. But you really need to be polite, but firmly stand your ground. It’s the middle road, and it’s difficult when your heart is pounding and you have adrenaline running through your veins. I think I did pretty well. I’m proud of myself. It’s a shame we don’t have the same right with police, but there are other analogous rights that we have when dealing with police, like the right to remain silent, and as discussed in that link with the law prof. and detective, they will tell you every story to get you to waive that right.

Anyway, I looked on the Dan Murphy’s website, and on their privacy policy, they have these two statements:

“Dan Murphy’s is committed to the principle of protecting an individual’s privacy.”

and

“All staff and contractors are obliged to respect your privacy.”

The way I see it, banning me from the store because I exercise my right to not be searched does not constitute respect for my privacy.

I called the Dan Murphy’s head office, and the guy sounded pretty baffled that I had been told I was banned, but said he couldn’t deal with it and took my details and said that the area manager would call me back. Haven’t had a call back yet, but I only called about 90 minutes before end of business hours today, so hopefully he’ll call on Monday. Otherwise I will have to be persistent and call back. I would love to get a personal apology from the security guard.

A similar thing happened to my mum at coles a few years back, and after she called, she got a call back from the manager apologising for the misunderstanding and said that the person who served her is being “counselled”. Ha. They said she is welcome in their store any time. Come to think of it, that was about the same time that coles seemed to stop asking to search bags. Haha.

As a security Guard i can tell you, you do have the right to refuse inspection of your bag. But then they do have the right to ban you from the store. ( would be extreme though and usually only if you have been caught shop lifting) If they make referral to the sign "we reserve the right to inspect bags" or words to that effect. You can say one of two things, 1) Sorry,i didn't see it, 2) Sorry but i changed my mind. I will add that if they detain you for refusing them to look in your bag and not because they suspect, or infer you have left the store without intending/ non payment, then they are treading on dangerous ground. Anyone who has this happen should seek legal advise, especially if it has been inferred in public that you "stole" something.

Another thing is that Security staff may "NOT" place their hand in your bag. or refuse you to move on without grounds, this could be taken as unlawful detainment. ( I would check that last statement for clarification )

Hope that gives you some insight.

One point i would like to raise is that to obtain a "Security licence" you have to undergo a police clearance check without a criminal record in the last 10 years,theory training about basic law and right ext, yet Dept, stores are allowed to rotate checkout staff to act as security. Seems like a loop hole favour to me. This is Based on your letter being scribed in Australia.

Edited October 11, 2009 by mountainmaniac

[FungalFractoids]

have like a jack-in-the-box, or those spring worms or anything that will explode in their face.

access to dan murphy's is pretty valuable. being banned, if possible, would stink.

my first thought too. Anywhere BUT Dan Murphys!

[FungalFractoids]

I always tell people to call the cops. Security guards can't do shit to me if they have a porblem they can call the cops.

Always a good idea... Until you find out you have a warrant out for your arrest or are wanted for questioning in relation to a matter.

[FungalFractoids]

Coles no longer displays those signs & since joining Wesfarmers it is policy to not request a bag search, even if something in the bag has set off the alarms.

Also Coles no longer puts a store stamp on any ov it's products. Coles used to employ people to checkout markets & dodgy stores to see if they were selling stuff (batteries & razor blades) w/a Coles store stamp on it. No more.

Theft Australia wide went from $1 billion to $3 billion last year w/petrol being the number 1 stolen item, followed by razor blades.

With no bag searches & no security stamps it's basically "open season" for shoplifters at Coles. People are walking out with sports bags stuffed full ov batteries, razorblades, those tiny tubs ov eye cream worth $30 a pop....

Coles insurance rates have risen appropriately & that in turn has driven up prices more than the rise in petrol prices...

Crazy..

Yeah, no shit, my mate has been surviving for the last year by stealing food from Coles and has never been dicked. He got caught the Safeway in the same mall and the security guard took some pity on him and told him to piss of and go to Coles because they don't have any store detectives, and not to show his face in Safeway again!

[ballzac]

I don't think Dan Murphy's is that great. Sure, they have a lot of wine, but I don't drink wine. Their range of beer is pretty poor compared to Cloudwine Cellars in South Melbourne or Duncan's in Richmond. Their prices are often low, but not always. I went there to get a bottle of Ardbeg 10 yesterday, and it was 85 bucks. I knew I could get it for 75 at Bootleg or Burwood Cellars (and probably many other places), so I left. I know they have a 'beat any price' policy, but I feel guilty as it is supporting a company that has such little competition, so if one of the little/r guys is offering something at a better price, I'm not going out of my way to support Dan Murphy's.

Edited October 11, 2009 by ballzac