Bush, The Dark Knight

[chilli]

I just watched this film tonight, awesome movie but a bit scary.

What do you reckon:

Batman = USA

Joker = Terrorists

People = Sheep

Is Christopher Nolan a neo-con, or did the government just get a particularly big finger in this blockbusting piece of propaganda?

Great movie if you do not support the war and have your wits about you (kind of goes hand in hand, anyway).

Also will help if you have good bladder control, I went wees twice.

*edit* There is heaps of stuff in there, but the cellphone surveilance stuff was particularly frightening in light of recent events, eg NSA wiretapping.

Edited July 26, 2008 by Sublime Crime

[Jesus On Peyote]

I sometimes get those types of feeling about the real world after watching certain movies, but i donno, might be an overactive mind or something searching for something bigger in everything. Might be a life imitating art type thing, tho i donno.

I havent seen The dark knight yet, but ill let you know when i do

But whats this about it being a good movie if you dont support the war? if someone supports the war, does that mean they wont like it?

Again, ill just watch it first before i make any assumptions.

[The Dude]

Finding the batman mythology a bit ambiguous and hard to understand. I was hoping that the batman would represent a Luciferian Destruction to the Order of things type of archetype. Only seen batman begins but I dug the idea of using the oppressive power of fear against the very agents that keep us hostage through it. Through creating an unseen, anonymous, seemingly omnipresent deity of vengence.. according to some higher altruistic will.

All these anon manifefstos on youtube with the Vendetta mask, that movie being pretty direct about its silent revolution ideas, ties in well with the idea of a symbol for the oppressors to fear. major religions like christianity have been subverted, new manifestos of revolution are forged in comic books, movies, music and art. The role of art is to dynamically reflect society to itself by updating itself and coinciding to the ebb and flow of the times, and in such a way is much more spiritually relevant than antiquated texts.

Soundless Dawn on youtube creates some great video montages of intertwined art and culture that through their connections suggest some transcendent meaning, communicated to all in plain sight, but hidden and silent, through such mediums as big budget movies, whether intended by the evil movie industry or the artists, I find that a deeper meaning is inescapably infused into everything by a mechanism beyond our control.

As this meme of very subtle symbolic subversion of the evils of the world, strengthens through box office success of the movies that carry it, the symbol of romanticised human potentials characetured as superheros empowers us all to take the power back. As an unseen transcendent entity the superhero, should be feared by those that maintain their power through keeping us in fear of achieving our own superhero potentials.

I suppose these sorts of interpretations are heavily biased by the meaning we want them to convey. In general I see a silent revolution of personal empowerment through collectively held altruistic ideals. I hope this movie continues with the trend I choose to see in these mythologies.

Edited July 29, 2008 by The Dude

[chilli]

Well if you go already decided on how you want to interpret it, I guess that's what you'll see, but even then I'll think you'll see what I mean, it's not exactly subtle.

Seems like I'm not the only person that picked up on it, for example this article in the Wall Street Journal (note the reference to 300 as well, which I mentioned similar ideas in last year):

What Bush and Batman Have in Common

By ANDREW KLAVAN

July 25, 2008; Page A15

A cry for help goes out from a city beleaguered by violence and fear: A beam of light flashed into the night sky, the dark symbol of a bat projected onto the surface of the racing clouds . . .

Oh, wait a minute. That's not a bat, actually. In fact, when you trace the outline with your finger, it looks kind of like . . . a "W."

There seems to me no question that the Batman film "The Dark Knight," currently breaking every box office record in history, is at some level a paean of praise to the fortitude and moral courage that has been shown by George W. Bush in this time of terror and war. Like W, Batman is vilified and despised for confronting terrorists in the only terms they understand. Like W, Batman sometimes has to push the boundaries of civil rights to deal with an emergency, certain that he will re-establish those boundaries when the emergency is past.

And like W, Batman understands that there is no moral equivalence between a free society -- in which people sometimes make the wrong choices -- and a criminal sect bent on destruction. The former must be cherished even in its moments of folly; the latter must be hounded to the gates of Hell.

"The Dark Knight," then, is a conservative movie about the war on terror. And like another such film, last year's "300," "The Dark Knight" is making a fortune depicting the values and necessities that the Bush administration cannot seem to articulate for beans.

Conversely, time after time, left-wing films about the war on terror -- films like "In The Valley of Elah," "Rendition" and "Redacted" -- which preach moral equivalence and advocate surrender, that disrespect the military and their mission, that seem unable to distinguish the difference between America and Islamo-fascism, have bombed more spectacularly than Operation Shock and Awe.

Why is it then that left-wingers feel free to make their films direct and realistic, whereas Hollywood conservatives have to put on a mask in order to speak what they know to be the truth? Why is it, indeed, that the conservative values that power our defense -- values like morality, faith, self-sacrifice and the nobility of fighting for the right -- only appear in fantasy or comic-inspired films like "300," "Lord of the Rings," "Narnia," "Spiderman 3" and now "The Dark Knight"?

The moment filmmakers take on the problem of Islamic terrorism in realistic films, suddenly those values vanish. The good guys become indistinguishable from the bad guys, and we end up denigrating the very heroes who defend us. Why should this be?

The answers to these questions seem to me to be embedded in the story of "The Dark Knight" itself: Doing what's right is hard, and speaking the truth is dangerous. Many have been abhorred for it, some killed, one crucified.

Leftists frequently complain that right-wing morality is simplistic. Morality is relative, they say; nuanced, complex. They're wrong, of course, even on their own terms.

Left and right, all Americans know that freedom is better than slavery, that love is better than hate, kindness better than cruelty, tolerance better than bigotry. We don't always know how we know these things, and yet mysteriously we know them nonetheless.

The true complexity arises when we must defend these values in a world that does not universally embrace them -- when we reach the place where we must be intolerant in order to defend tolerance, or unkind in order to defend kindness, or hateful in order to defend what we love.

When heroes arise who take those difficult duties on themselves, it is tempting for the rest of us to turn our backs on them, to vilify them in order to protect our own appearance of righteousness. We prosecute and execrate the violent soldier or the cruel interrogator in order to parade ourselves as paragons of the peaceful values they preserve. As Gary Oldman's Commissioner Gordon says of the hated and hunted Batman, "He has to run away -- because we have to chase him."

That's real moral complexity. And when our artistic community is ready to show that sometimes men must kill in order to preserve life; that sometimes they must violate their values in order to maintain those values; and that while movie stars may strut in the bright light of our adulation for pretending to be heroes, true heroes often must slink in the shadows, slump-shouldered and despised -- then and only then will we be able to pay President Bush his due and make good and true films about the war on terror.

Perhaps that's when Hollywood conservatives will be able to take off their masks and speak plainly in the light of day.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121694247343482821.html

Artistic and mystical interpretations aside for a moment, I think it's important to consider the way these powerful tools are being used for blatant propaganda and conditioning, as one example watch the how the cellphone surveillance issue is dealt with in the movie, and think about recent wiretapping scandals in the US and its allies.

[Jesus On Peyote]

I get what your saying sublime, but i wouldent go as far as calling it propaganda. Batman has been around since like the 1930s

Movies are movies. the product of the writers imagination/interpretation and opinions of the world as such.

Say a hardcore conservative And a hardcore liberal made a movie/documentary each about the war on terror (or any subject),

On one hand, the conservative would be pushing his/her believe system Ie. terrorists are bad and the war is a just war that must be won (insert video clip of terror attacks)

While the liberal would be pushing his/her believes that the war is bollox, its all based on money and throw in some history from decades ago and of course have a few videos of injured civilians crying and covered in blood, with the sad music in the background for good measure.

Im not saying propaganda isent present, but im not sure if the government had a hand in all things, or if the people making the programs/movies are just pushing their own opinions.

Anyways, like i said b4, i notice these things all the time, more recently being about "staying the course" type stuff in action movies and stuff like that, So yea, i agree with you, but i dont know to what extent such things have on people

Ill start downloading dark knight and see if i pick up anything thats absurdly obvious.

[ThunderIdeal]

i don't know what to think about connections found with hollywood movies, current events/ideas.. it could be the synchronous reality dude talks about, or modern propaganda, or just a genuine expression/enterprise.

the article is kinda... well..

seems to me that this movie would BUG you if you were against the war, but SC you're saying it's a great movie if against the war.

[chilli]

Sorry for the confusion, my head's a bit fucked lately.

I meant I thought it was a cool movie from the perspective of pure entertainment, I enjoyed it and I love Batman, Heath Ledger as the joker is great! My wife git a bit upset during some of his scenes, and it moved me too because I can't help but think that playing this role must have affected him.

I was suggesting it would be bad for the minds of pro-war people, although they obviously love it, as seen by that dickhead from the article.

JoP, I don't think the fact that Batman started in the 30's is relevant as to whether or not this film employs propaganda techniques. I just find this stuff interesting, not taking it too seriously, and I'm sure it's mostly a matter of art imitating life, but I'd be keen to know where Christopher Nolan's political sympathies lie.

[Jesus On Peyote]

Ah cools, i think i know what your saying, ild guess hes comming from the same place whoever made 300 came from.. yea its an entertaining movie, but you can easily see his bias in that one. ah well.

[The Dude]

The futurists of germany showed us how artistically sexy aggressive violent advancement can be. in the same way the stylised depiction of war in the movie 300 echoed the sentiments of an american public taking on a seemingly similar foe, hidden, ghostly and dark. Shown as faceless and without humanity, with pure malice as their motivation. Artists cannot escape their surrounding political environment. Not all are able to transcend the bullshit.

300 had a very obvious Persian -> Modern day Iran connection. That movie was deeply disturbing watching it on mushrooms. Such an eery atmosphere, the fear of an overwhelmingly large army, an ominous presence still hidden from sight created an emotional release when 'our guys' brutally dispatched them, in some very artistically choreographed stab work, finished off by violently thrusting the spears upward to fling off sprays of blood, compositionally arranged parallel to each other mimicking fascist symbology.

In those headspaces it is impossible to detatch from the obvious emotional puppeteering, at the same time it makes the technique so much more obvious. The values pushed such as 'our' superiority and sacrificing of the weak is disgusting to any compassionate human being. To push an attitude on individuals that they are all better than each other makes no sense.

...fuck that was an unnecessary tangent. just agreeing that not all hidden meanings speak THE TRUTH.

Although looking through the bs you can interpret some truth about the artists own beliefs. The very clever thing about Propaganda is.. a lie told a thousand times becomes truth. Once we believe the bullshit, we spread it of our own accord without any government directly telling us to, we're already puppeteered by their strings, unknowingly. Although in the case of 300 i think frank miller is friends with some high up well connected conservative types and it was an intentional effort at directing the American public into more of a pro-war stance. In effect saying Iranians are these shadowy figures that kill mercilessly and have very shady morals and decadent lifestyles in their orgy tents, they must be feared. The overwhelming obviousness of the scare tactic may have worked against it. .. but it's just Fantasy right? if the manipulation is subconscious, mission accomplished.

Back to Batman. I might want to read the comic books, or see some of the older movies to bring back the memories. Really unsure of the message preached, such is the shadowy nature of.. the whole mythology. I can only go back to batman begins. The whole idea was about people with power using it altruistically instead of for evil, and how he with the power was able to eradicate the corrupting evils. "Why do we fall down master wayne? .. so we can pick ourselves back up" lotsa feel good self empowering stuff, You always identify with the main character, so his character development was an inspiration for mine.

After reading that article, the murky picture does start to clear. That perhaps batman as a symbol is the very agent of occlusion and fear induction somehow oxymoronically twisted to mean freedom from evil, whilst .. actually being the maintainer of it. "The struggle, to free myself of restraints.. becomes my very shackles" - Meshuggah lyric.

Freedom has a price, for us to be liberated, we must first be enslaved, the two go hand in hand. Suffering comes from Desire sorta thing. While we're at it.. Batman is the personification of Justice.. a mysterious concept that we believe can save us but only causes more suffering, when you think about it. Vengence begets vengence.

The Joker is the antibody to the status quo, the order of things. A Destructive, Luciferian element, where batman is more like the architect of fear... the stalemate we keep our minds locked in. The Joker destroys these very structures and threatens the reign of the dark knight, in the realm of mind (all symbolic seeee) where perhaps a youthful playful, at the same time chaotic and unstructured influence can shape reality.

i see this as a battle of archetypes, which is manifest in movies and indeed all reality. Everyone seems to think of these last times as quite turbulent whereas we had more of a solid idea of what we're doing before.

Without jumping to the terrorism example, I think the joker is a necessary influence in both the structures of western politics and islamic fundamentalism. It is an inner battle and not simply reduced to us versus them as that article wants to suggest.

Batman is the symbol of fear and justice to evil. It is the very agent that creates the evil by perpetuating fear (ala anakin skywalker, created his own destiny thru fear) The Joker wishes destruction on all these structures, and through an honest and direct confrontation of the fear, liberates us from it through humor.

This is all going by... two second snippets of the new movie, and what I'm guessing these characters represent. Need to understand the storyline first tho.

Edited July 29, 2008 by The Dude

[devance]

Necessary evils.

One one hand there such and the other.

A bad choice as presented such for both.

Hilter was a supported/generated product of the fear of communism.

Thats the one hand and the fear of of the banking system could disintergration was the other.

So as they say both hand clapping.

A wise man said either go deaf of use both ears.

[badwolf]

Lol, which forum am I on again?

Abovetopsecret batman thread

Uncanny.. ;)

(I disliked the movie personally, so I didnt really think about it too much... but it's batman, afterall)

[The Dude]

In the old testament god commands one of his deluded followers to kill their firstborn. This creates a conflict between, the super ego, the authority we automatically trust, and our personal feelings. Our personal 'knowing' of right and wrong from a direct empathy that goes beyond some arbitrary rules.

There is quite the plethora of self contradicting 'rules' that if they're to illustrate anything it is that we must be personally responsible for the management of good/evil through our own morals and not rely on a big brother figure.

God forbids adam and eve from eating from the tree of knowledge under the punishment of death. As it turns out, this false god (demiurge) is exposed as a liar as eating of this fruit does not kill them, and like the serpent said, their eyes had opened.

This is a very clear cut invitation to partake in the mystery of the unknown.. so that we may know. For those fearing gods mandate there is the contentment to follow the rules, with a belief that this omnipresent god must know. The truest knowledge is knowing you know sweet fuck all. Orobourous, the end of knowledge is the beginning.

Anyway, the wiretapping morality question, with batman as our hope in authority: order through fear, and Morgan Freeman as our humanistic concern for human rights, references Americas moral dillema about personal freedoms / versus safety. The joker card, of an unknown un-understandable 'evil' beyond comprehension was the wool needed to pull over our eyes.

The heroics of fear and tyranny is as oxymoronic as it gets. To claim that black is white, is the most direct confrontation to us that we're really seeing things the wrong way around. This movie.. like the very war on TERROR, through it's own contradictions is a catalyst for us as a collective, to let go of fear as a method of control, and maybe rely on compassion as a self regulating force again.

"He who gives up liberty for saftey, deserves neither" - paraphrase

-oldschool quote, these are age old issues.

The War on Terror, as in literally wiping out anybody that has ever terrorised anybody, and then taking it a step further and terrorising potential terrorists (to give em some motivation to actually do it i guess) is .. like fucking for virginity. Just like the war on drugs creates it's own black market, so too are most other Wars on anything a facade of being against something that actually gives one benefit.

The Old Testament was self evident of Big Brother being full of shit, yet it is impossible for some to read between the lines. I'm thinking that this movie can also have a very distinct double meaning, by keeping the fearful in order, and at the same time liberating those who can see through the bullshit. To see how building up a hero will ultimately fall like a house of cards, when its' very foundation is its' own self limiting fearful bullshit.

[devance]

In the old testament god commands one of his deluded followers to kill their firstborn. This creates a conflict between, the super ego, the authority we automatically trust, and our personal feelings. Our personal 'knowing' of right and wrong from a direct empathy that goes beyond some arbitrary rules.

'deluded followers'

Yes, did the deluded follower do so as to follow through, God said no.

A conumdrum.

[chilli]

Are Adam and Eve still alive?

Badwolf, why is it so weird? Like I said it is not very subtle, so unsurprising that a whole lot of people would notice it.

Edited August 5, 2008 by Sublime Crime

[Vertmorpheus]

I have a hard time aboutwire tapping morality n all that... I mean shit, itd be nice to get some privacy, but the phone networks belong to the corps n governments... don't like it, don't use it. Telecommunications of any kind of NOT a basic human right, or a basic requirement of life... you want to drive on their roads, you have to follow their rules. Seems pretty simple?

I dunno bout weird, or not subtle... it's just an archtypical thing. Just about any hero movie basically has the good guy (who often has to come close to not staying a good guy anymore) some bad guys (who are just pure bad, no complexity there) and some bystanders/kids in the western mainstreet/ grunts/ colonists whoever needs saving from the bad guys.

All tales like this will resonate with almost any aspect of the human condition as they have all the same characters, themes, dynamics.

Esp given the rampant antiwar sentiment found in hollywood, I can't see people blowing that much cash and watning to make that much back off it with any kind of intent to just rub dubyas ego. Really? I mean wouldn't they just make a series of ads saying "dubya - you dont have to like him, but he did some stuff!", etc?

The same analogy could be applied to blair witch project ie the forest is the climate of fear, the kiddies the sheeps, the witch the terrorists, the disorientation in the forest the maze of contradictory media... or Aliens... ripley is bush, burke the terrorist sympathisers, unamerican ppls and those capitalising from the war unjustly, newt is the innocent populace, the aliens the terrorists, the queen alien Osama (in hiding, and not so mobile)... I mean really... its a fun game but its maybe just a lil easy How about The Crow.... nothing but the same... it just keeps going. Pick a movie, pick a novel, they all have basically the same themes. Its just old norse myths with guns and new names, a lot of the time haha.

thats the problem with metaphor, symbolism, etc... once you play with runes long enough, you can just get readings from leaves in the gutter, more or less.

VM

Edited August 5, 2008 by Vertmorpheus

[chilli]

Vert you bastard have you even seen the movie? I know similar themes are in lots of films, but with this one and that other one last year, 300, I'm referring to quite overt, timely, topical references that go beyond the normal good guy/bad guy routine. People had similar reactions in the 300 thread that has been said here, but it turned out the guy is basically a frothing at the mouth neo-con with an agenda.

I realize there's people that read this stuff into every film they watch, and think it's part of a grand conspiracy but I'm not one of them! I do find it weird how many people seem to balk at the idea though. I mean, I would think it would be weird if these powerful, big budget, sensational blockbuster movies were not being used as propaganda or conditioning tools. Why is it people who see propaganda etc so readily in newspapers, T.V. etc, do not recognize it in movies?

*edit*

I have a hard time aboutwire tapping morality n all that... I mean shit, itd be nice to get some privacy, but the phone networks belong to the corps n governments... don't like it, don't use it. Telecommunications of any kind of NOT a basic human right, or a basic requirement of life... you want to drive on their roads, you have to follow their rules. Seems pretty simple?

Vert, it is far from being so simple! The phone networks do not belong to cops and government! Even if they did, the government and cops belong to us! The roads are ours, built and paid for by our taxes! We are supposed to live in a democracy, the roads are not "theirs" the rules are not "theirs" they are ours! The cops and members of government are not a ruling class, they are part of our society! I've heard Queensland is like a police state, but FFS please tell me you are just being cynical! Is this enough exclamation marks to get my point across!

Edited August 5, 2008 by Sublime Crime

[Vertmorpheus]

Yes, I have. No, it wasn't any more blatant than many other Ultra Amerikaan bits of pretentious shite regardless of where it lives on the political spectrum. 300 was more blatant cos it had..well... middle eastern ppls in it . Orsen Wells was a man with many fingers in pies... I dont think however he was softening us up for martian colonisation! Plenty did, though. I guess its a question of does it actually MATTER or CHANGE anything about my day to day life? Nope. Though now I worry about James Cameron movies, too! esp if you read....

http://www.goroadachi.com/etemenanki/

like old warrior sage does ;)

Don't make me explain how Dora the Explorer relates to it all but remember, all things that are seen, are seen with the eye ;) Change the eye, change the picture...

No, it wouldn't be weird. In fact it'd be entirely predictable. So am I meant to be blown away by the "neo-connectedness" of things, or just accept it as the way of the world and get on with my day? I could even do BOTH, haha. Becausee thats how things work... why is the most indignant tone comes from those that really should know better than to be surprised? Firemen don't get all braethtaken when a house burns down, only the owners. Tells ya something...esp thinking who really had the chance to prevent the fire, mosto f the time ;)

Go out the front, start digging up phone lines. Who turns up? The government. Start kicking a phonebox to bits...who turns up? The govt. Does John Blogs come out of his hovel to stop you? No. Why? Because like most people, he thinks modern civilisation is a right, or something. So he wants it to work when he pics up his phone... but he surely wouldnt put his own effort into supporting it any. Would he? Hell no.

the old "i pay taxes and they pay your wages thing" is almost laughably simplistic. And a nice way to get your head kicked in next time you get pulled over, I reckon. You pay taxes to the tax office. After that, it really has fuck al lto do with you what they do with it. Thats why we have terms LIKE "government" as theyre a separate and defined bunch of cunts that GOVERN our lives. Theyre not called "the wise and individually elected council of unbiased clever dicks who never make am ove without it pleasing every single last member of the populace, or even the greater proportion thereof".

Government and cops belong to us... thats almost as funny as "socioeconomically disempowered". IF they belong to us, why do we listen to THEM? I mean, really? My dog belongs to me. He does what I say, when I say it. I provide for him. He protects me. And if it suits, I can chain him up. Lock him in the laundry. Thats ownership. Not just "laying claim to". not just approaching the govt with an attitude of ... childishness? htat kind of whining expectation ppl get in relation to the system.

Payinng for a BULLSHIT tiny fraction of something, doesnt make it yours... and if it is really yours, in your eyes, then I hope ppls is out yeah workin on roads, volunteering, holding the rest of their community to the perfect standard of law order and conduct at all times...certainly NOT supporting or toleratinng any interests or things that may detract from the smooth running of a productive and financially secure modern nation

You dont own the phone system, and it sure as hell isnt mine. Telstra is privatised. I dunno who runs phones in NZ but theres so few of you, it hardly matters much does it? WE dont own the phone lines anymore. Thats why you hahve to...uh...pay to use the phone?

Tax is ours til it gets to them... why is that so hard for ppl to get heads around? If its your roads, I hope next time theres a bingle on the freeway, youre out with a shovel cleaning up for free, hey? Next time you see a truck that might be overloaded, you better flag him down, direct him to a weighstation, to prevent damage to OUR roads... yeah, sure, right.

I honestly don't MIND in the LEAST if ppl DO feel personally involved with their government... my only real issues are a> why do ppl get all juicey over propaganda but then assure us all its routine anyway..sounds like getting excited over tap water, eh? b> why ppl have usually got the "its my right" "its my road" "i pay my taxes" bit down pat but can still happily divorce from the govt the minute it does something wrong, mean, or unjust.... its not like kids, you cant just pretend theyre someone elses when theyre acting up. If you want to hold them accountable, you have to accept them holding us accountable, if nothing else, and it seems many have some issue with that.

We don't live in a democracy (well I dunno bout Un Zud, maybe you do) we live under democratically elected generally pleasant enough dictators, guided by various policy advisors who are carefully selected from the get go.

Cops and goverment are a ruling class and culture when they're at WORK. When theyre off work, they just ppl. They can keep that in mind, why can others not?

Don't get me wrong, the kind of touching 70s era student liberalist conspiracy thing gets my rocks off too, but it must be rememberd quite a few ppl myself included don't really buy into it, for many reasons, least of all having had a lot more than many to actually do with the goverment, the police, the military, the judicial system, the tax office... all in the capacity of both a customer and a complainant, and as ranadom family members, co workers, whatnot. Get to know some masonic ATO staff, some ppl that were declined positions with ASIO n ASIS due to being TOO shifty in an entirely law abiding kinda way, people that take frequent trips overseas to ensure security of various stuffed suits, etc... its all much more, and much less "true", than the average Illuminati fan club member could ever believe.

Theyre nothing special either way, thats my point, and yours too it seems

QLD is only a police state for twats that don't know the rules... I wish people would stop thinking of it as a bad thing its oonly bad if you're bad AT IT! Once again, people take stuff from johs era and keep applying it... whats the link between corduroy, lava lamps and paranoia?

So sorry, I just cant get all excited about conspiracist theories... how do you THINK things get done? Seriously? And why do people keep getting SO surprised about it? Its all so much more and less true than most would ever dream of!

And who really cares anyways? So 300 was made by a rightie with a tightie... what, hes not allowed? its only ok to promote a leftist loopy view of things, anything more "orthodox" and its "meme doctoring"? Cmon... we cant have our cake, then complain cos someone else made it for us, tells us how and when to eat it and then sends a crew to clean up the crumbs for us too.

Phones are not a basic human right, or a prerequisite of survival. Hate to say, buts its true. You don't "deserve" one, and if you get one relying mostly on a system you neither built or maintain, you have to accept its real mummies n daddies might just take an interest in you at times. Why not? Your voice is floating around on their gear, their protocols, their profits.

Lets remember that..profits. Movies, tv, papers, phones... its all PRODUCT. it doesnt have to be right, or fair, or clean, or honest, or provided for free as a community service. Its to make MONEY. They don't do it to be nice.

VM

edity... I may be jaded...after all...my daughters Mum is a blood rello of the real guy fawkes...so masks dont impress me as readily as they should, I reckon

Edited August 6, 2008 by Vertmorpheus

[ThunderIdeal]

"QLD is only a police state for twats that don't know the rules"

come on now. look at my info to the left. *cries*

[chilli]

Vert, you have read soooo much stuff into my posts that simply isn't there (or at least wasn't intended to be) Stop projecting and lumping people into such simplistic categories, lots of us don't fit!

I don't have time to get into such a long post as I need to finish painting the fence while it's warm, but suffice to say you seem to be taking this topic a heck of a lot more seriously than I am, or assuming I'm taking it more seriously than I am, or something like that... it's just an interesting diversion, I'm not trying to blow anyone away!

Plus, I disagree with your defeatist attitude towards government on principle, although I feel the same way most of the time. Despite feeling like the effect of my own life on these massive historical forces is so puny, I believe giving up is even more puny. No point getting burned out when you're so young, but no point becoming so jaded either, you sound like friends of mine who are 50! Drop out if it keeps you sane, but maybe come back and kick the crap out of society one day.... maybe you could be a comedian.

Edited August 6, 2008 by Sublime Crime

[Vertmorpheus]

Ohh - k - then

You made the suggestion thato ne of the highest grossing films of the year is a mediacon project to warp our minds but don't want it to be taken seriously, though did say you wonder why people automatically dont take the possibility seriously, replied with much vitriol of a Certain Variety but then somehow resent being held to those views? You said "ferfuckssakes" at the end of a bunch of questions and now are offended I took time to try and clear em up some for you? Is this some kind of proxied masochistic thing?

Call me crazy, I take issues like propaganda and media manipulation VERY seriously...though my first post in reply was to me clearly mostly tongue in cheek... to which you replied seriously and with great concern! Then you take some offence at me trying in all seriousness to clarify my position in relation to your worries?

but at the same time, it confused me that others who are just as concerned and aware can get the wide eyed stunned innocent thing when they find an example of it, alleged or otherwise... not saying youre a unit IB, never have and never would and it took me two weeks of PMs to get that thru ya scone... mates are capable of disagreeing without drawing lines in sand, n all that crap. C'mon?

As I said to Mu the other day re teotz, I am entirely capable of objecting to a view without the individual, more than able to pigeonhole people but only as far as "well, you are a person that believes what you just said". I try not to make massive lifestyle inferences based on that...simply respond with my reactions or opinions to what they said.

Sounds a bit fishy anyways, to get labelled a labeller? Boxed as one who puts people in boxes but generally by people that didnt expect anyone else to have any opinions re their opinions... whatever works for em, Note too that much of that was directed at the gestalt of "mediacon concerns" and those typically raising them, rather than your specific opinions.

if you run around makingn chicken noises, dressed as a chicken, people might JUST end up thinking youre a chicken. Dont crack a sad when they do... and ya don't have to spend as much energy as ya seem to DELIBERATELY jumping out of your self imposed boxes just to avoid being associated with em later on. You think dubya controls hollywood, go for it. Dont get upset when others take that to mean you can probably be assumed to have other kinds of views too.

Take what any of you know about me... now... which of the following would you most readily tack onto the list too?

1> Cock fighting

2> Sushi making

3> Interior design

4> Poetry

5> Amateur electronics.

See? Relax. We all do it. It doesnt send you blind Any of those things is possible, but only a ningnong would pick 1 3 or 5. Maybe 3 at the outside, when I'm older haha. Someone wearing a green hairy shirt and a sign saying "save the trees"... you think theyre into v8 supercars? maybe they are... but only a mong would take honest offense at you daring to assume they probably aren't. If people being people offends, it might be you that needs to drop out. Live with some perfect monks, orsomesuch. Read my title at left< unrefined. I can self censor til the cows come home, what good does it do anyone. Nothing. We'd all be bored shitless if we all started doing that anytime we slipped up and said something vaguely human.

Most issues anyone could ever start a thread about already figure in peoples minds, and as such we will usually bring some kind of prepacked mental lunch to share, so to speak. I apologise if it sounded personal, its not. Not to take the piss but maybe dont raise issues you cant bear to hear taken seriously or slightly (even then not really) conflicting POVs. I dont raise issues like land rights, child care or immigration as they just get me upset, the shit that comes out of people in relation to em. I wouldnt bring up Eddie Mabo in a pub in Taree and get all stunned when someone says something that pisses me off, surely.

I just find serious issues hard to joke about especially in company that took seriously your semi joking responses to their originally serious sounding concerns.

Seriously

Edity...defeatist I actually really resent, as I am not,simply a realist working with opinions of trusted people who know a little more about these things than the average armchair Discordian. and I challenge you to find anywhere I have ever told ANYONE not to fight, about anything, if they feel they should. Most of the time, I get flak for being if anything a lil too idealistic about some things. For getting TOO passionate, TOO convinced... Talk about projection? This, friends, is why you should form your own self image and not rely on others to flesh it out for you. So is it serious, or not? Given youre using terms like drop out, defeatist, puny, kick crap out of... sounds like you only just realised via me how seriously you DO take it, maybe. Might be wrong? Or did it feel more serious and sound less kooky when you made the post, for some reason?

VM

Edited August 6, 2008 by Vertmorpheus

[The Dude]

Sorry VM, don't be playing this projection crap. Re-read your 2nd last post and tell me it's not got an overwhelming vibe of 'defeatism'. They were the thoughts that sprung to mind, hey VM, always with the sharp, sometimes cynical but often comical, with a 'yay we can change the world' kind of uplifting bent has gotten all emo.Depressing having to scroll through example after example of how a capitalist society with tight economic structures somehow implies an us/them sovreignity of rights and power, that kind of misses the overwhelmingly obvious reality that there is no "they", all of this is only me.

We are not in a democracy sure. And to expect equal rights is naive. I'm a naive sorta person I guess, because reality is all built by our expectations. I'm done with expecting mediocrity, the self fulfilling prophecy, I expect the best out of me.. that includes all you guys so pull your weight

Anyway...

I'm more interested in the subconscious mystical connectedness of all things especially these hubs of consciousness like blockbuster movies, tv series and especially music. So the seriousness of these peoples evil intentions is boring as fuck. What is the 'other' trying to tell us?

Even with some evil neo-cons conspiring to create a sinister hidden message, it couldn't even come close to the subtlety and meaningful impact of the hidden messages communicated by all to all, un-willed by egoic desires, we are shown our collective desire for survival, the hows and whys better seen via transcendence than ego. Next we can discuss what sinister evil plots the spirit of mother nature is trying to brainwash us with. Or the influence of saturn in this months blockbusters... or any other esoterically codified connection from anything to everything. I agree with VERT that with the right eyes, hidden meanings abound, so their significance reduces to a mundane phenomenon, Maybe the concept is boring, but the message is always inspiring.

The power of words (or any form of communicating meaning) is underestimated in altering ones mood, outlook, and therefore our collective reality. Talk is cheap though, taking action is expensive.

Edited August 6, 2008 by The Dude

[Vertmorpheus]

"Re-read your 2nd last post and tell me it's not got an overwhelming vibe of 'defeatism'. They were the thoughts that sprung to mind, hey VM, always with the sharp, sometimes cynical but often comical, with a 'yay we can change the world' kind of uplifting bent has gotten all emo."

Aw cmon Dude, don't be playing this projection crap Why is it about three steps into people bickering like old chooks online someone uses the P word? Is it a holdover from old chat days, or something? It's like the mid 20s version of "reverse psychology" as beloved by primary school aged kids... anyways...

To be honest, I reread it whilst trying as hard as possible to take it that way at all, and No, I don't feel it has an overwhelming vibe of defeatism. If you can pick a few bits out for me, thatd be helpful, as I really am trying to find anywhere I tell anyone not to bother, its too late, etc.

If you honestly feel there is something to be defeated by, and that to let the mere notion of resistance put you off your goals and motivations before you even made an attempt to change it would be defeatist, then it sounds to me like you are up for a "fight" with whatever it is you are feeling at risk of being defeated by. The word fight isn't used there with its usual fisticuffs lets step outside nonsense, I just mean a conflict of ways, two different visions trying to blur each other out of focus, or whatever... say entirely for example you want to "fight" the "man up the road".

If you really are commited to your cause against the MUTR, you need to be realistic about his options, his backup, his strengths and weaknesses, his high and low points, the follow on effects of fighting with him and winning OR losing, etc. The person that points out "he does have a big stick in there" isn't saying don't bother, they're saying "he has a big stick in there". That's all. He doesn't want to see you get your head bonked. He isn't saying that owning the stick makes him a special class of person, or any more or less human than the next person... simply that , he has a stick in there. Dont be under the illusion that he DOESNT have a stick, or that simply not mentioning the stick or making jokes about the size of the stick will change the reality of the stick.

No more of the stick schtick

I come from a long line of fighters on many fields, and in many ways... pick it, we've been there, from way back when til the day we talk here now, whether its with pens or bullets or solidarity or setting up tents on Parliamentiary lawns... or merely being dragged into something, sticking our heads into someone elses trouble because we can see theyre the little guy, or whatever... if you find mention of the reality of things as they stand, in relation to the (use the word roughly here) "enemy" you seem pretty well set against, in this context... then you're in for a rough fight I reckon. We can't wage our personal wars based on supposition and fear-turned-to-laughter... unless you want some serious "casualties".

If by defeatist you mean "sobering", then I'll wear that tacky pin with pride anytime. Maybe when you say I sounded "defeatist" and "emo", is it possible thats because raeding it made you FEEL that way about the issues? So far the most "projection" has come from the two most guilty of it So I will ask, rather than accuse, imply, or haha, yes indeedy, even project.

If you want bleak, I can do that anyday, that was just whats OUTSIDE. I think all this is very, very serious shit indeed, if you want the whole truth. I think it needs fixing, and I feel the only way to fix it is to do your best to live your life how you feel you should and hope the rest of the world follows, for starters... and in the meantime, do your homework. But don't let your actions be guided by fear of the present, just love for the future. If what I wrote resonates with someone elses fear, thats unfortunate. This is a thread tangentially related to a war, it has to be remembered. I wouldn't wear my floppy shoes n big nose to a dawn service.

A war is made up of battles... you want to win the war, you have the pick the battles, and only once youve done all you can to know the enemy as well as he knows himself... so the theme there of "no us or them, just people" holds true... and untrue. I know people who are police officers. That doesn't stop the powers or change the social role of police as a general rule. It DOES let me avoid the usual hateful nonsense of making pig noises and assuming theyre all bastards, so thats a plus, and in line with the no us or them thing... and it also means I know a lil more operationally speaking than some OTHER copper I don't know as a person would expect me to know. And probably more than some moron on the street chucking stubbies at them. It also means I dont have to make silly jokes about them to counter the fear they cause in me, as they cause less of it, because I DO know quite clearly they're "just people".

I apologise if I bummed you out... some things I don't make jokes about though, and war is one of them, corruption another. Things like vietnam, malaya, singapore, botany bay,france, somalia, rwanda, afghanistan, the seven day war,tent embassy days, and east timor are pretty fresh in my lil circle's consciousness. I can't find much to laugh about in my eldest niece being scared of her dad when he comes home on leave, but then tries to hold the door shut on him when he has to go away again. I can't find anything funny in my dodgey heart structure cheers to my dad mixing AO with his hands (on board the Melbourne, and was on board when they cut the Evans in half, giving him decades of deeply rooted PTSD, how funny is THAT? yeah I'm splittin myself. heres a link, it even has the name of the poor dead young fucker that woke my dad up at night for 30 years, well whatever bits he dragged over the side of the boat, anyways. He might have joined the navy after seeing a really good movie about war and heros n stuff. Isnt that funny? http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:MJ8Bl...ient=firefox-a). I can't smile much about my sister in law spending an hour on the phone, making painfully normal chitchat because she cant discuss details, while we all pretend to be normal along with her and pretend we can't hear her crying. Or that my Mum was silly enough to divorce one retired servicemen inn favour of an actively serving one from a whole other country, just so she can roll the clock back to 1973, emotionally speaking. Jokey remarks about democracy dont get my giggle going because 30 or 40 years ago I and many I know would not have been allowed to vote at all... we had to fight for those, and NOT get to feeling defeated in advance. So save that shit and grow roses with it, it's rubbish to me.

If war troubles you, maybe don't read threads about them? Because I'm not always here to be everyone else's clown,I love to make people happy and inspire a lil dreaming and I'm glad I can manage to have that effect... but consider maybe WHY I seem to spend a lil extra time putting a few giggles into the day even...no especially in the midst of some occasionally dark shit. Laughter and love are essential things but at times you have to put them down for a second and take a long hard look at things that might threaten them in the future, or the here and now. Peace to me is more of a verb than we realise, love doubly so. Doing your best to look out for your interests is anything BUT defeatist, its being prepared for the challenge.

Nothing but flippant one liners and occasionally humerous blokey anecdotes with cute slang and contractions for you lot from now on, it just sets yez off hey? Maybe some slightly unorthodox gardening suggestions with a few too many smilies and some token feelgood juice thrown in for someone elses benefit.

And dude, it really IS unlike you to make comment so hard on the heels of my momentary lack of herbal groove. Are you feeling your usual self, today? JoP had me wondering the same thing yesterday... is there a bug going around?

It's like obsessed but somehow jilted feeling fans of the band, or something. Piss off, I'm not the messiah Ah so thats what that smiley is for...

VM

Edited August 6, 2008 by Vertmorpheus

[chilli]

This is all too long, I'm trying not to get into pissing contests anymore!

Vert, I think you've misunderstood my tone, but I have difficulty putting things across in text but you of all people should know that by now. I was surprised by the defeatist things you said because they didn't seem congruent with what I've seen of you elsewhere, hence the FFS and exclamation marks at the end there, all intended to be very lighthearted. It sounded like you said the cops and the government own the phone lines and the roads, so if we don't like being spied on and don't want to obey 'their' rules we should just fuck off and live in the hills basically, sounded pretty unequivocal the way you said it, sorry if I missed the subtle nuances! You did sound pretty defeatist, and it's two against one so you lose and this is lighthearted too, I figure I can get away with it with you without spelling it out but maybe not.

Maybe you're just cynical about your own idealism and so you react when you think you see it in others... personally, I'm about as cynical and jaded as can be, but I try to counter it because I don't want to get depressed and kill myself, mainly. If you think what I say on these forums is an accurate reflection of what I believe or who I am you'll always be scratching your head and getting the wrong end of the stick, I don't intentionally try to headfuck people or play games, but my ideas and beliefs are in an agitated state of flux, and I use these kinds of places to work them out, throwing ideas out and seeing what happens.

A couple of months ago peeps were reckoning I was some kind of hardcore materialist based on questions I'd asked, now you seem to think I'm some kind of Alex Jones fan, but both of these are so far from who I am, yet sometimes I feel like both! Remember questions aren't statements and sometimes statements are really questions, and I argue myself in and out of ideas and beliefs all the time, and yes I'm so deep and complex.

Don't get me wrong, I also think what people say and how they behave over a period of time is a reflection of who they are, but it doesn't work very well on the net (again, as you yourself often point out) and besides if you collated all the stuff I've written on these forums I think you'd come up with a very complex, contradictory person who clings to any certainty that floats by to keep from drowning in agnosticism. Again, yes I am unfathomably awesome, basically.

If you ever met me sat down and had a chat I think you would realize this pretty quickly, being the sharp minded but warm hearted kind of person you are, most people do after a couple of conversations and then they avoid eye contact if I ever see them again. The thing is I can't type too much at the moment and get all picky and logical or I'll go insane! I really think you have misread much of what I wrote, but I am sure I have not put it across very well either, I am definitely not offended by anything you said, confused maybe, and I wasn't labeling you, it just seemed like you made a snap judgment and launched into one of your poetic-insightful-hilarious-but-sometimes-draining-and-surely-just-occasionally-wrong-headed-tirades based on very little info, and I think you were on the wrong track this time, but if I was wrong or off track then I apologize.

_________________________________

The Dude, I tend to find the subconscious, symbolic, archetypal aspects to be the most interesting as well, and is what is going through my mind when I see things like this, I just think people are too stupid to be able to work this stuff into everything consciously. I generally don't talk about it because it's scary and people usually think I'm nuts, talking about mundane things causes enough problems as it is!

Edited August 7, 2008 by Sublime Crime

[Vertmorpheus]

Aw cmon, you will and you know it... this place is like psychoemotional Kindergym, haha. Does you good. Very few people know how to have a disagreement anymore, they just get straight to angry, dismissive, insulting, whatever.

I reckon we all of us took everyones tone the wrong way... or we used the wrong tone and it didn't sit right later, whatever.. The fuck off to the hills business was probably in there, but where we got mixed up was that I meant it more as "you can like it, accept what it is but aim for something better, or just accept putting up with it all might drive you insane if you cant do either option.I'll accept in the grand spirit of apathy that you took it as defeatist, it really doesn't change what I'm up to this arvo all that much... and I'll take it as a reminder to make sure I whack a smily in there at least every three sentences. see?

"Maybe you're just cynical about your own idealism and so you react when you think you see it in others... personally, I'm about as cynical and jaded as can be, but I try to counter it because I don't want to get depressed and kill myself, mainly. If you think what I say on these forums is an accurate reflection of what I believe or who I am you'll always be scratching your head and getting the wrong end of the stick, I don't intentionally try to headfuck people or play games, but my ideas and beliefs are in an agitated state of flux, and I use these kinds of places to work them out, throwing ideas out and seeing what happens. "

goes for most of us, i think? Someone once said something about the loneliness of being misunderstood vs the fear of finally being understood. Certainly sounds like me some of the time anyway, which is pretty funny given the way we was chukin the P word about... only to work out we were bang on the money anyways, hm?

Bugger what peeps reckon you are... theyre helpful indicators but then yeah as you say, the net is hardly the best interpersonal medium there is (well, you get the right housewife on her webcam, it might come close). Bugger, in some ways, even trying to determine a fixed notion of self to apply to anyone, yourself, whatever... my lil theory anyways...given that for every person that is confused, another is intentionally misleading or just mislead, we all change and grow and mutate a lil every minute of every day... we simply are NOT the same people from day to day, which is what makes ppl grumpy is when they have put you in a box (to be kind, lets say a set of boxes, a nice wall unit... more a matter of association, than limitation, if you get me... I don't pidgeonhole intentionally but I have a human mind, it works via associations and linking to already stored notions, etc..bit of a bummer, but I cant hold it against myself ...and then you get up and go wandering around and force them to reconsider ideas about you that they have come to derive some sense of security from, even a minimal one. BUt then I dont think its helpful to go holding the odd trace of humanity against people, or being hard on yourself for having the same, sometimes. The only jesus was jesus, from memory. I'd like it if everyone took time to get to know all about me and bla bla, insert oprah here, but I don't get too miffed if they look at my hair and assume I smoke pot, or look at my boots and assume I'm a tradie.

what would the plural of jesus be anyway? jesuses?jesii?

I think most people are unfathomably awesome, if they give themselves a chance..but we're just a big bag of habits and flux as ya said... expecting us to stay the same long enough to be entirely comprehended is a pretty tall order. So we have to get reductionist, I guess.

If you cling to avoid drowning in agnosticism, I cling to being intentionally and consciously warm hearted as i am not, by nature, a particularly good person. I have a fairly...expedient... approach to the world around me, if I don't watch it, so the surprise isn't that occasionally it slips and people get raw product, the surprise is that I've it works as often as it does. Anyone I believe can be a good person by default, but when you do have a head full of alternate ways to resolve lifes little dilemnas, it can be hard not to jump straight to the sledge-to-crack-a-walnut approach.

I'm actually wrong as far as others are concerned quite often, but then ya get that with opinions, if people choose to read a rant as a fully resolved thesis, a set of recommendations set in stone or as something I regard as being universally applicable or desirable, I really can't help that. Like you, sometimes its just things thrown out there... most of the time its my honest and reasonably fixed (though open to suggestion of course) belief or experience. why bullshit about it? I just stick to what I know... so very little fact doesn't come into it really... everything up there is true to me, most people I know in the real world around me, and my experience. I have a much more gnostic approach than some, nothing is true to me until it's been personally revealed. Even then I don't go building on it like a house on stone... most stone will turn to sand, under the right kind of conditions ;)

There ya go, all wubbed up. We're a pair of wonkers sometimes.

Something you might dig looking into (not to go projecting, I just happened to find it helpful in conceptual terms, I wont be writing it on a tablet and clocking anyone with it ) is Gurdijeffs Enneagram of Types... goes a long way in helping ppl get the cerebral mish mash of personality dynamic "out there" into a more manageable idea. Kind of related to mandalas, but in three d. No, four d. Pretty cool, and you can build it with old bits of cardboard and string.

_________________________________

Weirdness I find to be universal, that it should turn up in media n whatnot is I think normal and entirely to be expected.. but it can blow you right away at times. Generally we shrug it off around here otherwise you'dgo nuts (as Pratchett said, one of the most important parts of the brain is that which stops you noticeing everything) but its amazing how quickly it passes on to kids too... mine was probably all of 18 months when she tripped over a book about fish, said "fish", just as the television presenter said something about a fishing trip at a Lake "insert name of street we were living on at the time" in another country. Then the phone rang, it was a rello from that country, who was doing ok but had tripped over that morning while looking for a book.... about what, ya reckon? Seafood recipes. By the time I got off the phone to them, it was... lunchtime... what did I make? Lil tuna bake things.

it gets worse, but thats one of the few mostly "linear" ones.

VM

[Guest xxx]

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dem_Bones

 

Toe bone connected to the foot bone

Foot bone connected to the leg bone

Leg bone connected to the knee bone... hehe!? just askin

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name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="

type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Masquerade Infernale, The Hanged Man, and The Loom of Fate

 

O, what a tangled web we weave,

When first we practice to deceive!

There is an undeniably strange and phenomenal energy surrounding the death of heath ledger.. He's portrayed as the master of chaos and a Jester in Batman. The Dark Carnival's champion in Casanova, inquisitor of the Luciferian pope in the Order.. and most recently, he can be seen wearing a tattoo of the eye of illumination on his forehead as he hangs from yet another noose in The Imaginarium of Doctor Parnassus.

He Resonates with galactic center.. As he bears self designed tattoos which geometrically represent the time

of the crossing.. as well as the opposite polarity ~ the twin sign or Gemini.. as we see the Yin Yang sign on

his arm in the film Two Hands.. and his friendship with the Olsen Twins.. one of which was called in for questioning

in relation to his death.

Heath swaps the white mask for the black mask and vice verse in Casanova..

Again welling up imagery of Stanley Kubrick's final jab in the side of the Illuminati in Eye's Wide Shut. The Mask may be used to shroud one's identity.. to become someone else.. or to become more than a man.. to become an Ego less idea.. One that veils your imperfection ~ an illusion of purification.

The Serpent Hugs the Tree of knowledge during a ceremony in the ninth gate..

this galactic crossing or the Mayan description of the serpent ropes all point to the ushering in of a new age as we approach the ecliptic.. The Dragon, feathered snake, or phoenix

all being aesthetic symbols of this aeonic flux.

The occult or hidden hand is dark in that it is mysterious to you..

It is a vast chasm of knowledge withheld.. Given to you in slices..

Incomplete pieces of an ever growing puzzle.. it enrages you as a

quarantining and compartmentalization of your true potential should be in nobody's hands but your own..

This idea.. this gnosis.. keeps you wanting.. searching the void for the legend that ties everything together

which explains in the most precise and simplistic fashion.. the webbing of cosmic illumination.

Ledger is forced to ask a hanging man just such a question as he is in the death throws of his final

living moment.. A Lucid state or purgatory whence you can view the knowledge between existences. Ledger becomes a Sin Eater..

A Pardoner of evil.. Even beyond the power and reach of the Catholic church.. he gains the ability to purify even the most depraved human's soul.. in effect becoming a god himself.

The transfer of this immovable power takes place over a curious star shaped geometry.. where a man becomes an immortal.. Within a circle of power representative of the structure and orientation of the universe these abilities may be learned.

Inspiration:

Jake's Site: http://rundonotwalk.blogspot.com/

AferrisMoon:

http://aferrismoon.blogspot.com/

Dedroidify:

http://dedroidify.blogspot.com/

Dedicated to the memory of Kent Daniel Bentkowski ~ You will be missed:

http://www.kentroversytapes.net/

Edited August 8, 2008 by xxx