the Logos

[puck]

i'm not sure how one would define the Logos, or the experience of the Logos working thru a person, but i'm sure it can be described. not perfectly, of course - unless by the Logos itself. and then why the fuck would you be on a message board at the time?

any thoughts, descriptions of experiences, where the Logos has been present and spoken thru you? not always recognisable as such at the time, i'm sure.

also, what it's like for fellow trippers. (eg, i wish that bastard would just shut up already!) yes, domide, i am after your thoughts in particular.

[XipeTotec]

i usually dont watch them... but I did see a bit of them last year. They are shit, and I hate that rove c*nt.

Edited January 10, 2008 by XipeTotec

[The Dude]

i usually dont watch them... but I did see a bit of them last year. Teey are shit, and I hate that rove c*nt.

wtf?

[Hyphal]

wtf on both accounts??

[t st tantra]

logos/logies

t s t .

[Vertmorpheus]

fuckin hell xipe, puck raised a very interesting and legitimate question... perhaps next time if you dont have something helpful or positive to say, keep it to yourself eh? I know its easy to make flippant jokes in response to feeling challenged by something so arcane and proscribed you have to have read at least a few websites or paperbacks to know about, but just remember thats his personal mythos man...being spiritually dysfunctional or deceased yaself isnt Pucks fault is it now? geeze, I dunno... i wonder why some people bother signing up for this forum at all sometimes

Ah, to keep the jewel of the divine from the hands of the profane...

avagoodin

VM

[XipeTotec]

fuckin hell xipe, puck raised a very interesting and legitimate question... perhaps next time if you dont have something helpful or positive to say, keep it to yourself eh? I know its easy to make flippant jokes in response to feeling challenged by something so arcane and proscribed you have to have read at least a few websites or paperbacks to know about, but just remember thats his personal mythos man...being spiritually dysfunctional or deceased yaself isnt Pucks fault is it now? geeze, I dunno... i wonder why some people bother signing up for this forum at all sometimes

Ah, to keep the jewel of the divine from the hands of the profane...

avagoodin

VM

just because i'm not as pleonastic as some, doesn't mean mean im spiritually devoid . In fact, if your post was any longer, I would not have bothered reading it... like the rest of your posts. Also, I wasnt attacking his, "personal mythos". My comment in no way prevents people from discussing the topic.

geeze, I dunno... i wonder why some people bother signing up for this forum at all sometimes

If everyone else is like me, and can't be bothered reading through your long winded posts, for a couple of tidbits of information (i can only assume there is some of them in there), then i'm sure they get much more from my posts, even if it's just a giggle.

perhaps next time if you dont have something helpful or positive to say, keep it to yourself eh

Maybe you should consider taking your own advice.

Edited January 11, 2008 by XipeTotec

[rahli]

Logos -

Its obviously some mycological definition or discription

Not the shitful logies

[puck]

man i love all you guys

the Logos - well jeez, can i possibly clarify? here i was thinking everyone here would've read Terence McKenna! howzat for projection mixed with arrogance and conceit?

the Logos could be described (poorly) as embodied Language. the way i experienced it - on my first trip, up at EGA - was that Language was speaking through me. ego was there, but it was not ego speaking. it was pure Language, and it was able to envelop meaning in words, and bring it in communication on a silver platter as it were. the usual imprecision of words was wholly absent. needless to say, i ranted under the stars for hours with incredible arrogance, and my poor companion could not get a word in edgewise.

it was not until the next day that Dennis said it was the Logos, and the experience became a little clearer.

now that's one experience, idiosyncratic i'm sure, and of little value in discussion. i wanna hear from others, dammit! how common is this? - cuz i'm sure it's not an everyday thing. i was humbled to have it happen on my first time, and augured well for my relationship with the ally. but still, others will have far more important things to say, so let me step aside and hear them.

[XipeTotec]

is it a variation on this logos?

Logos. (Gr. "word"). A symbol for Christ, the word incarnate, or "word made Flesh:' which is also called "the Word of God" (cf. John, 1:1-4).

[ThunderIdeal]

it may not be much fun for the guy who may just be pretending to listen eheh.

i wasn't there though.

i've read mckenna but i think of the logos as being a cosmic library, i dunno if that's accurate to the actual definition. it's like a really full-on library that you may be able to access parts of or maybe all of. it's comforting just to believe it exists.

[The Dude]

Would glossolalia or speaking in tongues.. or manifesting jeweled self transforming machine elves by vocalising, or an Icaro be considered language made flesh? unsure of the Icaro, but the rest are random expression of sounds, not information or language as such. Although that is the way language started.. I suppose by focusing an intention of communication and letting out what ever 'random' vocalisation you got, You will communicate whatever meaning you hold, perhaps this communication would only be understood in the same 'wavelength' in which case telepathy may as well be possible, however that isn't exactly the word made flesh, it is still hidden in the ethers of mind.

I remember about this time last year, I first started going to psychedelic trance parties. I have a memory of a specific moment at a specific party. I had an Open Eye Visualisation of a pentagram vortex -flowing forward not sucking in- emanating from the speakers, and spewing forth a whole multitude of symbols, of anything and everything, covering all things so that naming specifics is pointless.. just think of ANYTHING.. there's a symbol for it.

[edit] I exaggerate some, it couldn't of shown me Everything, but it appeared to be well on the way if i payed attention long enough, mostly they appeared as language glyphs, numbers, religious symbols, shapes, geometric craziness, I cannot remember anything specific now though

I considered that the Logos at the time, and only now remembered the experience. Maybe due to the novelty of it all, I remember feeling so fucking great I would've been smiling ear to ear.

Edited January 14, 2008 by El Duderino

[chilli]

just because i'm not as pleonastic as some, doesn't mean mean im spiritually devoid . In fact, if your post was any longer, I would not have bothered reading it... like the rest of your posts. Also, I wasnt attacking his, "personal mythos". My comment in no way prevents people from discussing the topic.

geeze, I dunno... i wonder why some people bother signing up for this forum at all sometimes

If everyone else is like me, and can't be bothered reading through your long winded posts, for a couple of tidbits of information (i can only assume there is some of them in there), then i'm sure they get much more from my posts, even if it's just a giggle.

perhaps next time if you dont have something helpful or positive to say, keep it to yourself eh

Maybe you should consider taking your own advice.

Um, but wasn't he being completely sarcastic? Don't worry Vert, I read your posts... they are routinely hilarious, but there's good plant stuff there too... after all, if you didn't talk about plants constantly, there wouldn't be much point in joining this forum, would there?

Puck, at first I thought there was no point answering, seeing as the greek word logos has been used by so many different groups in wildly different ways, and I couldn't see how something with such a vague definition could be discussed meaningfully... but your description of your ecstatic experience is intriguing... particularly the way that on the one hand it's described as "i ranted under the stars for hours with incredible arrogance, and my poor companion could not get a word in edgewise" and on the other as "Language was speaking through me. ego was there, but it was not ego speaking. it was pure Language, and it was able to envelop meaning in words". I am curious about how language can exist as an abstract entity, but mostly how you are able to differentiate between your own drug induced ramblings (we've all been there) and the embodiment of pure Language, especially when you seem to describe the event as both?

[XipeTotec]

Um, but wasn't he being completely sarcastic?

maybe, i just don't know anymore!!

[Vertmorpheus]

I tried to think of a snappy, insightful and funny as hell one liner, but found it really difficult.

But then again so do you more often than not Xipe, so I'm in good company right?

Just do your best to hang on to the memory of the very rare occasions someone has been silly enough to tell you youre funny, and assume that everyone else is thinking it all the time but is just too busy cracking up to post as much. Then you can get an overinflated sense of communal worth and get confused about where antics end and personality begins.

But I did like the bit where you said the funny thing about the stuff, that time, that was good!

Keep up the good work, I'll stick to my long winded and ranty posts with their odd tidbits of useful information. I don't suppose you have anything else up the sleeve do you, just that you've tried just making things up, and now stating the bleedingly obvious that I have drawn attention to MYSELF many, many times... if you don't come up with something kind of workable I might have to demote you from "occasionally funny and probably well intentioned " to "in need of constant attention but not very interesting". Fucker of a mix that second one, like a really awful smelling pet that wants a pat now n then.

Something of a catshit-22?

Nah, I just can't do it.... I admit it ...we NEED you. Without you we would have to listen to say commercial FM radio... to come anywhere near pointless one liners of such quality, such relevance and almost divine informativeness.

Can you spot sarcasm yet? No more lessons, I'm bored with you now. Your posing instructor might be able to reinforce some of the lessons though if you ask really, really nicely. Or even funnily! ha. ha. ha.

Run along with the other children, and play nice now.

VM

edity bit... nice word that pleonastic, I had to look it up in mothers dictionary n all... well done! Doyou mean it in its usual sensethough , or just to mean "prone to ranting in a style not entirely different from some other members but not as prone to using certain buzzwords and key phrases that put me at ease?". You don't have to answer that, I'm sure you were just grinning like the cheshire cat to have finally found a use for a word thats been in your "words to use" list for a while. I'm happy for you.

Edited January 12, 2008 by Vertmorpheus

[XipeTotec]

vert, your post is too long, with too many points to respond to... i did read that one because it was about me. I would defend myself against your poor insults, some of which lack truth, and others which were pretty lame, but Ill just take the chance that only the minority bothers to read your posts.I really liked the one about running along with the other children, if all else fails, and you lack the skill to outwit your opponent, just try to belittle them instead . OH, wait, that was sort of the general tone of your whole post.... u really dont have anything, do you?

Edited January 13, 2008 by XipeTotec

[Vertmorpheus]

Oh look if you need it that badly, here's some more attention!

Xipe this and xipe that, xipe something else.

better? You really shouldn't need it, you're getting to be such a big boy now, nearly a man!

VM

[XipeTotec]

if all else fails, and you lack the skill to outwit your opponent, just try to belittle them instead . OH, wait, that was sort of the general tone of your whole post.... u really dont have anything, do you?

omg, I had no idea how lacking you truly were. Very sad.

Edited January 13, 2008 by XipeTotec

[puck]

...anyway, getting back to the topic...

Illegal - you may be perfectly right. Terence used to quote one of the Alexandrian Jews, in saying that "a more perfect Logos would be one which was beheld, not heard" (quote from memory, apologies). Hence his fascination with the Amazonian shamans' psychofluid. I've a hope of going into this one day, but I've found, from my few and shallow plays, that I don't really get to direct things. all the better, prolly.

well, indeed how would one differentiate between drug-enduced ramblings and the Logos? i think one point would be the purity of the expereince (excuse the poor adjective again), in particular the perfect specificity of the language which can hit the nail square on the head, defining rather than describing whatever is being spoken of. it is absolutely unmistakeable - at least it was that once - and i can vouch subjectively for the veracity of the experience.

Xipe - yes. it is. i actually freaked out when i realised that John 1:1 starts with "In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God." usually translated as 'the Word', but the Greek is kinda untranslatable. hence the difficulties so far in this topic...

so, any other experiences? as much as i like philosophising...

[The Dude]

"a more perfect Logos would be one which was beheld, not heard" (quote from memory, apologies). Hence his fascination with the Amazonian shamans' psychofluid.

... defining rather than describing whatever is being spoken of. it is absolutely unmistakeable - at least it was that once - and i can vouch subjectively for the veracity of the experience.

My experience was somewhat of a synesthetic audio/visual experience. The language was music and it was translated into visual symbols, in such a way it was beheld, cuz really one can't understand music but somehow it was communicating 'this'... Anyway random mental associations maybe, synesthesia is fun though.

I don't know what Terrence McKenna speaks of with the psychofluid, but on reading about his dmt experiences I am fascinated by his method of intentioned vocalising creating these transforming machine orb things in all manner of specific individual variations dictated by the intended meaning it would convey... something like that. SO again it was vocalised, the word made flesh, but what was beheld would've been of a 'hyperdimensional' reality, and 'random' sounds based on no 'order' or 'syntax' can convey more accurately the intent of the person communicating, this he hypothesised as being a new form of synesthetic instantaneous communication, visuals shown in an instant are quicker to process than spoken language which must take time.

Audio/Visual or information transferred as pure Emotion... whatever the case these are all egoic interpretations of the whole, for there to be 'communication' there is by default a seperation of self. I am guessing that communication of this sort originates from a spiritual sense and not necessarily originating from our physical senses, if one were to leave the body entirely and dissociate from their physical senses all together, where one becomes a single point of awareness, I wonder how this communication takes place, can pure information be beheld without processing through subjective indiosyncratic symbols? In a non-sensory way, pure information transfer.

Maybe because I am semi-conscious and stoner memory means no dream-recall, but upon awakening I always feel I've learned some abstract existential concept that cannot be communicated into words. It's more of a memory of where 'I' was in between waking/sleeping, some nowhere/everywhere location... It is more of a 'vibe' or gist of whats going on, and then throughout the day I start connecting these dots and formulating ideas into words.. and probably bastardise the original 'message'.

Edited January 14, 2008 by El Duderino

[ajna]

my understanding of the logos was that it is more or less the voice of (or an intermediate of) god and not necessarily the embodied kind, but that was the McKenna brother's intention, to embody in order to replicate the voice and have it manifest in some way on 'this side'.

but im a bit out of touch with mckenna's ideas as it's been a while since i read them, so im not sure!

i can relate in some ways with experience i think. i've definitely had times where i feel the Rambler take over and speak at length with seemingly perfect clarity about a variety of topics, but im not so positive it would be perfectly clear to the listener unless they were very much in tune with my train of thought (possibly while altered too). for me the most striking or unusual quality of my words at those times has been the poetic structure and flow and a 'sharpness' to my sense of humour which allows me to laugh endlessly at my own spontaneous riddles!

i didnt really attribute these type of experiences to the logos, but i do experience quite often what i call the Celestial Orchestra - the most intricate, moving, beautiful classical-music-from-the-future type music i've ever heard in my life playing in my head. i'm sure i've heard others describe something similar too - it sounds impossible to replicate by any humanly means, but is also the source of every great piece of music conceived, as if they are just glimpsed fragments of this Pure Music. it isn't so much surprising it would appear this way tho as music has always had a huge impact on me

one time i have tried humming/signing with it, and it does feel as if my voice frequency wavers around until it 'locks on' to the correct channel at which point i no longer feel like im singing to it but my voice has become a projector for one of it's layers. i cant comment objectively on what my voice sounded like at that point however i felt as if i had the flexibility to make sounds that normally would be difficult or unnatural. the interaction with the visual aspect is very significant also however i'm a bit lost for words trying to desribe the relationship - the music is creating the visions and the visions are explaining the music, or something ??

anyway, at one point i had considered that music to be the logos that mckenna described, music as a pre-language state of communication, and it inspired me to make music until the day that i've brought it back perfectly, which is seemingly impossible but i like a good challenge. these days i'd hesitate to call it the Logos because i'm not positive im experiencing the same thing as what mckenna meant by it, but this is probably the closest i've felt to having 'tapped' and channeled such a source

hope there's something worthwhile in there anyway. and just for the record, i enjoy reading most of Vert's long-winded rants

[The Dude]

I've definitely had experiences of music being the voice of god.

"music is the language of us all " - The Cat Empire

[puck]

Round Two.

So the Logos returns. Or maybe one of his mates. I'm inclined to think that what I and the McKennas have been terming 'the Logos' may actually be a loose conglomeration of disparate or related entities. Maybe my metaphysical Linnean nomenclature is seriously lacking. I dunno. But 'Logos' is the only word I got.

Up at ConFest (the week was so full of conversation material, you're gonna hear those three words as the introduction to many of my sentences) I had the chance to imbibe the lapis philosophorum, known in English as Philosopher's Stone. Let me tell you, it lived up to its moniker.

It always fascinates me how the trip begins before you ingest. As soon as i completed the formal exchange, I heard some weird sounds coming from the Chai Tent. A group of men were doing this weirdarse thing with their voice that I'd never heard before. Half throat-singing, half harmonic resonance. It was like something from a dream. And the deep recognition of this sound spoke to me, that I'd heard it before - in a dream was it, or in a trip? I couldn't tell. I tried to join in, but this was something else, and I hadn't a chance. They showed me some of the ropes, though, and said I had the talent.

I told them later I'd be doing some really intense vocalisations...

So later, I'm dancing to the drums. Getting really into it. This is like the second time I've trance-danced, let me put it in perspective; this is not an everyday pastime for young puck. But I'm becoming one with the dance, as you do, and decide to retire for a puff. It took hours to finish that jay. As I'm halfway through, I start making a weird sound. But at the same time, it's not me making it. It becomes apparent, quite early on in the piece, that something has seconded my vocal apparatus to be used for its own ends. It is a very strange sensation. I am there, but I am not making this sound. And it is being quite gentlemanly, in that as it twists and contorts my larynx, throat and mouth into shapes never before experienced, any time it becomes almost painful, it will explore another avenue for sound-making.

Put into perspective, I'm smoking a joint, leaning against a log, in the bloody marketplace. A couple of stoners walk up and have a jolly old laugh. I have to laugh to, because the scene is so fucken laughable. Eventually I get over it, and just flow with it. I return to the music, and sit among the dancers.

This voice is one with the dance itself. I can feel myself enunciating the dance of the people around me. A naked man, with the trippy resemblance of a demon, gets into it hardcore. He's dancing in front of me, and we have a telepathic connection. I am singing his dance (though 'singing' is the wrong word) and it's quite unpleasant. When he turns to the side and I see his willy shaking around, I start laughing through this voice, because his cock is (figuratively speaking) in my fucken throat. But I do my best to go along with it. I really do. And I tell you, when he leaned over and I achieved the perfect enunciation through discarnate sound of the dance of his hairy man-ass, it was one of the most intensely uncomfortable experiences of my life. I mean, his anal sphincter was lodged inches down my trachea. Talk about intimate.

Anyway - thank God - he moved away. And like Divine Providence, in moves this blonde dreadlocked Goddess. I don't even know what she looks like, cuz i only saw her from behind, but to caress the curves of her body with my voice was supremely ecstatic. The sensual movement was sensual intimacy, though the modality of this alien fucken presence dancing in my neck. Through the harmonic resonances of different parts of her spine, I was able to pull up an oral kundalini through her body, coming bursting out her crown chakra. I did it with myself, too, and it fucken rocked. I feel a much clearer energy flow since then, and have also come a long way with my voice. Whatever it was that came through left behind in my neural pathways the synaptic connections required to achieve more sophisticated vocal resonances.

I looked up at the Full Moon, acutely aware that this was the night that 8000 drums were being played across the world for Mother Earth. I could feel the ETs watching what was occuring, likely involved in the physical manifestation of the strange entity I was channeling. It started getting a bit uppity at this point. I don't know if it was It, or me (cuz Mushrooms tend to get a bit psychocentric, which can easily manifest in egocentrism), but I was hearing that this entire gathering was brought about for this Thing to come out. So I said 'see ya later buddy; deal's off' and left the circle. But before it left, I took out my notepad and pen and wrote the only piece of channeled writing I've done so far: "A more perfect Logos is one which dances". (Echoing the quote above, to give context.) It was tangible, the effort this thing was expending to write that, before I felt it palpably leave my body.

So, that was my second experience with the, or a, Logos entity. I feel like the first one was a mere precursor to that. I never really thought of the first time as 'channeling' per se, but looking back, the language i use to describe it is highly reminiscent of a channeling experience. This second one was unmistakeable - subjectively speaking - as a channelled phenomenon. What exactly it was, I don't know. All i know is it just wanted to come out and dance. And it isn't exactly unique that way - i caught up with one of the guys I met initially, and he said that the sensation of channeling is reasonably common with this sort of singing. It is an ancient practice, shamanic, and probably goes back further than speech. From my experience, it's the original psy-trance music!

So, is this another facet to the mystery of Language coming from the Mushroom? Seems to be, to me. I was certainly given a clear directive, shortly after, that I was not to smoke anymore. No cigarettes, no pipes, no billies. Really pissed off about it, TBH. But an order's an order. I gotta clear out my lungs and keep 'em pure, cuz there's a whole new world opened up regarding sound. But that's another thread entirely.

So screw 'Logos' as a reductionist label. Has anyone channeled anything on Mushrooms, or on another substance?

[ThunderIdeal]

not like that.

how do you interpret the written statement anyway? that the logos is improving somehow? i would interpret it like this: you would have been a better logos (or instrument of the logos) had you been dancing as well as vocalising.

great story man, i laughed my ass off in the middle there. nudie-mud-fest haha. sounds like a weird place, too weird for me maybe.

[puck]

The message - "a more perfect Logos is one which dances" - wasn't saying that I should've been dancing. It wasn't referring to me at all. It was the Logos that was dancing; by enunciating the dance of others, it was itself becoming a vocal dance. It seemed like an entity composed of sound. I guess 'Logos' could be accurately defined as an entity of pure language, and sound is a form of language, even (or especially) when it is wordless.

I wouldn't say the Logos is improving. The statement was not exactly to be taken literally. I've heard it said that channeled entities need to express themselves in terms of the concepts understood by the channeler. In that case, It was paraphrasing Philo ("a more perfect Logos would be one which is not heard but beheld") because through Terence McKenna I've come across the concept. McKenna liked the 'beheld' thing cuz it creates the possibility of a wordless visual language, a synaesthetic telepathy of thought-forms appreciated as physical objects. Think of the Caterpillar on the Mushroom in 'Alice in Wonderland'.

The Logos I came across was using the phrase to announce itself, to describe itself. I wouldn't take it literally and say it considers itself "more perfect", but that's always possible. And I wouldn't say that the Logos is improving. Definitely my channeling of it was more intense the second time than the first. But I wouldn't have the presumption to say it was the same entity both times. It could be, and I'm inclined to believe so, but the experiences were so different, and the 'voice' so variant. I'd be comfortable with putting them in the same genus, but not same species.