Lewana grade kava from herbalistics

[Francois le Danque]

does anyone know if it is made of stems and root or just plain root? it is no longer available on the store, but under the "waka grade" section it states that "traditional kava contains no stems". however in the encyclopedia of psychoactive plants (which i know to contain several inaccuracies) it says that 'lewana' is comprised of both stems and roots.

can someone clear this up?

[planthelper]

i have no knowledge about herbalistic's kava, however i have spent 3 months in fiji a while ago and tell you as followes.

you have answered your question already, waka is topgrade and contains only roots, lewana contains aswell above ground material. this is the only definate thing one can say. i mean it's up to the person who produced the lewana how much root material (if any at all!!!) is mixed with the above ground material, and how many centimetres of the above ground material has been used. fijians told me that, one should use the very bottom of the above ground material, just a few centrimetre's worth, the part which maybe was even burried but is not made out of root material.

i would never bother using lewana grade, it's a bit like smoking hemp fan leaves instead of head, with the only difference that, consuming above ground material very well might pose some health risks.

so allways go for waka grade!!

i have consumed low grade kava in my life and it's simply not worth it, as it still comes with the typical peppery kava flavor, which for some people is a bit hard to swallow (i love the taste) but you have to drink far more of it to get the effects. worse even, drinking 4 times as much as you would normaly do with waka grade, you still might not get the effects good kava would give you.

if you travell in fiji, and you think, might get lucky to be proper invited into a village as a guest of honour, for god's sake always buy the most expensive kava you can find on the markets, as for the villagers, your lewana grade is seen as a lack of respect!!! it's like bringing cask wine to the hosts of a posh party, you would not do it...

obviously most travellers would not have much knowledge about different kava grades, and are likely to buy just the (cheap) stuff which is available in quantety, as opposed to waka which will be a bit less abundant, in size of the bags and on offer.

i let you in into a secret which i have shared here before, but which is not known to most people and authors.

i was told that the youngest parts of the roots, which are naturaly quite small in diametre, are the strongest part of the plant. if we visualize a kava plant with it's, "a bit tuberous roots", it's obvious that only a very small amount of this material

is available, or say produced, whilst say just a few more centimetres "more" of the above ground material, will give far more total yield. i hope you get my drift, it's likely a producer will use the not so good material, because it gives him/her a much higher yield.

top notch waka grade kava gets sold mostly in whole (unpounded) pieces, like this the buyer can see, it's top grade rootmaterial and avoids dissapointment.

as mentioned, respect is very important in fiji, and if you bring top grade waka as a gift to the village, they will respect you in turn, as you have shown respect to them, and i think it's rather a very good idea not to risk up setting those fijians, after all most of them are build like a brick shit house, lol,

[Francois le Danque]

shit...i ordered a quarter of a kilo just after the new legislation came in to ensure i would have any kava at all. i am aware of the above ground parts being linked with liver damage (hepatic failure in previously healthy people ) which is why i asked this question. it was all the same price, and lewana had a review in which someone said it was the best.

so yes i listened to the review instead of thinking for myself... as for the potency i found 6 level teaspoons in milk very pleasant a few nights ago (at least the effects were pleasant). i dont so much mind the taste, but even when i strain it is still like drinking sand. now that makes me gag. especially thinking about it now. i have a hangover after my friend's mexican night . I will add mezcal to my list of things not to drink, which is so far comprised of vietnamese sake and galanga(l?) tea. oh and of course lewana grade kava.

this is disappointing.

Edited January 8, 2008 by frank

[XipeTotec]

i am aware of the above ground parts being linked with liver damage (hepatic failure in previously healthy people ) which is why i asked this question.

this is disappointing.

has this been established??.. I do know of alcohol extracts causing liver damage.

[apothecary]

has this been established??.. I do know of alcohol extracts causing liver damage.

Alcoholic extracts of root only is not hepatoxic as far as I know. Ref?

[XipeTotec]

Alcoholic extracts of root only is not hepatoxic as far as I know. Ref?

tga... i dont have the actual findings, so I couldnt tell you if it was specific to root only or not.

[apothecary]

I can't tell if this is one of your jokes dude, your ref is the TGA?

[XipeTotec]

they published findings a few years back when kava products were taken of the market, I say TGA, but my actual reference is my partner who was involved in the industry at the time, who was informed by suppliers of these products (whom i may not be able to reference for possible legal reasons), she does inform me that this information would have been published by the the tga for obvious reasons. Whether the TGA or one of these companys did the initial research, I am unsure. regardless, it resulted in the alcoholic extracts being removed from the market.... again, i couldnt tell you whether the extracts were root only or not... which I believe is the issue at hand... which no amount of referencing will enable me do so.

Edited January 8, 2008 by XipeTotec

[apothecary]

Ah I know what you're referring to now, so let me clarify, alcoholic extracts of kava root are not hepatoxic!

[XipeTotec]

Ah I know what you're referring to now, so let me clarify, alcoholic extracts of kava root are not hepatoxic!

ref?

[apothecary]

lol you were being a smartarse but I caught you out... and get to say UTFSE

Another thread where you say the exact same thing

http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/inde...12314&st=25

and get called out.

You can check out this one too

http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/inde...?showtopic=6400

Also, here is eight papers on the issue (the first eight results)

http://scholar.google.com.au/scholar?hl=en...amp;btnG=Search

[XipeTotec]

lol you were being a smartarse but I caught you out... and get to say UTFSE

Another thread where you say the exact same thing

http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/inde...12314&st=25

and get called out.

You can check out this one too

http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/inde...?showtopic=6400

Also, here is eight papers on the issue (the first eight results)

http://scholar.google.com.au/scholar?hl=en...amp;btnG=Search

sina, sina, sina...

a. i wasnt being a smartarse, i was contributing to a discussion....I believe thats what this place is for..

b. You didnt catch me out... the information, in the form that I presented it (without misrepresentation mind you) was correct.

c. The thread that you linked did not show me being called out, infact, I just stated the kava extract (alcohol was implied, as most, if not all therapeutic use, fluid extracts are alcohol based) was... to quote myself, "thought to cause liver damage". If the reason for this is due to aerial material within the COMMERCIAL product, then, what I stated was still correct.

I admit i was not informed on whether root only was not hepatotoxic, but, as each reference I have made has been in reference to off the shelf commercial extracts, then some amount of hepatotoxicity can be assumed (as you reference that they contain aerial material.) mind you, if I recall the correctly, it was isolated incidences with people that may have already had less than perfect liver function (dont quote me on that one though), but we all know that it doesnt take much for the TGA to take a natural remedy of the market... compared to a pharmaceutical.

as for your references... you have obviously done some research on this, and I am happy to take your word for it.

goodnight sina

Edited January 9, 2008 by XipeTotec

[Francois le Danque]

if I recall the correctly, it was isolated incidences with people that may have already had less than perfect liver function (dont quote me on that one though)

*am quoting you on that one* the FDA says that kava products were removed from the united states after some people (i forget, it was more than ten) suffered sudden hepatic failure after using kava containing supplements. 3 needed liver transplants (including one with a previously healthy liver) and i think one died. they do not give details on what the people specifically used, whether they used recreationally or therapeutically, etc. it's still quite alarming.

now i'm off to read all the things sina posted, they may rebuke what i just said but whatever.

[XipeTotec]

*am quoting you on that one* the FDA says that kava products were removed from the united states after some people (i forget, it was more than ten) suffered sudden hepatic failure after using kava containing supplements. 3 needed liver transplants (including one with a previously healthy liver) and i think one died. they do not give details on what the people specifically used, whether they used recreationally or therapeutically, etc. it's still quite alarming.

now i'm off to read all the things sina posted, they may rebuke what i just said but whatever.

your not allowed to quote me on that one I appreciate the information though, as now I know not to make the same un-quotable quote

[Francois le Danque]

aaaargh i wish i just bought waka like a smart biscuit...where is darcy?

also the above FDA information is posted on Erowid's kava vault, which is where i read it.

[apothecary]

erowid only keeps the FDAs claims for posterities sake, just the same as they keep the DEAs claim that THC and thujone are related nitrogen based compounds.

[XipeTotec]

erowid only keeps the FDAs claims for posterities sake, just the same as they keep the DEAs claim that THC and thujone are related nitrogen based compounds.

ok, thanks for that pete, pete, repeat

Edited January 9, 2008 by XipeTotec

[Mr. Farrz]

I seem to recall that the liver damage was caused as a result of aerial parts of the plant being used by certain suppliers.

i ordered a quarter of a kilo just after the new legislation came in to ensure i would have any kava at all

What new legislation is this? Have I missed something?

[KlUe]

has this been established??.. I do know of alcohol extracts causing liver damage.

I was under the impression liver damage caused by kava occured in a similar situation as alcoholics.

[Francois le Danque]

1) I seem to recall that the liver damage was caused as a result of aerial parts of the plant being used by certain suppliers.

2) What new legislation is this? Have I missed something?

1) yes, my question is does herbalistics use aerial parts? "lewana" means it contains aerial parts as stated by ratsch.

2) yes, you have. commercial import of kava is now illegal (or at least impossible).

also i don't care how many things the FDA can get wrong, catastrophic liver failure in a previously healthy person is still noteworthy.

edit: if i get an answer from darcy about question 1 i will stop causing such a ruckus.

Edited January 9, 2008 by frank

[PhantomTurkey]

Surely alcohol poses a much greater threat than Kava. Why they got to ban the import of Kava? This sucks.

[Vertmorpheus]

Because brown people and various other marginalised hipsters derive a great deal of comfort and enjoyment from it at reasonable prices without paying vast amounts in tax and duties.

Also, it was replacing alcohol as the social depressant of choice in many top end indig. communities... legend has it a lot of "negative community feedback" was actually coming from the caucasian operators of local pubs and bottle shops ;) Or at least via their close knit network of Literati whitebreads living in or near those communities. There was also a few cases of Tongan based lines of supply running black markets up that way in its transport and sale after some attempts at local regulation went thru... there were some concerns that whilst driving half tonnes of rootpowder up the road, it wouldnt be a waste of time to tuck a few kilos of hydro in there too. Usual situation, 90 percent alarmism and 10 percent people acting like dodgy dickheads.

It was also starting to be used as something of a currency... the Man is never big on anything forl ong once he works out some hairballs are supplementing their incomes with it, using it to reduce the amount of taxed n stamped painkillers or anxiolytics they need, or using it to get off other "harder" substances. cant have that now, can we?

Just drink and smoke yourself to death, and if that get too depressing, see a doctor Or go to a chemist and buy the "kava pills"... just dont take enough to actually get blasted or you might shit out your liver. Whats the worst that could possibly happen?

Still after kava plants here... gots me some great spots for cultivation (deep deep rich sandy beds, subtropical shade, etc) just need the plantstock!

Theres threads around on the whats n whynots of this whole sitch, PhaT, dig em up and have a read.... basically you can bring in a kilo or so with you on the plane, if youre already going to Fiji or somewhere. Course customs might hten say "no sorry thats a bug egg" and chuck the lot int he bin.

VM

Edited February 8, 2008 by Vertmorpheus